6/25/2004 - Brewers (Obermueller) @ Twins (Santana)

[Bruce Ciskie]

Bill--

 

I can't control Ben Grieve's actual effort. But when a guy who sucks defensively also plays without any emotion, one can't help but observe what I observed.

 

There's no way in hell that Ginter is worse defensively than Grieve. Give him a shot in right and DH Grieve. It's bad enough that Grieve plays as much as he does in RF when we play in NL parks.

 

As for Obie, you'll get no argument from me. I thought his last start was going to be his last start. If it's not tonight, it might be time to check his locker for dirty pictures of Ned.

 

I have a question: Between being at work and getting my son ready for bed, I haven't been able to watch the entire game with my full undivided attention. But have we swung at a first pitch at all? Every time I've looked, one of our guys is taking a first-pitch strike. Meanwhile, the Twins are swinging at first pitches and killing Wes. Just curious.

 

And either Johan Santana flipped the switch before Sunday's start, or we're making him look probably twice as good as he really is. I know how good he's capable of being, but he hadn't really approached it all season until Sunday. Considering how good we made the Colorado pitchers look this week, my vote is still for this not being a coincidence. Santana's ERA will go back up once he starts playing teams that aren't the Brewers.

[batman]

I'm willing to bet that Johan wasn't 100% early in the season. Or maybe more likely, he had learned to pitch a bit differently with the bone chips in his elbow (edit: I wrote shoulder, which is obviously wrong...fixed now). Once they were removed, his adjustments were no longer necessary, and in fact hurt his consistency.

 

At this point, I can't see any difference between Johan circa June 2004 and Johan circa August 2003, a month in which he went 5-0 and basically made opponents look like little league bench players.

 

If I was a Twins' fan, I'd be pretty relieved. Flash in the pan? Not exactly. Future Cy Young? Exactly.

 

~Bill

[Bruce Ciskie]

Bill--

 

I think the increased confidence from his manager has helped. For a time, it seemed that Gardenhire was afraid Santana's arm would fall off if he threw more than 100 pitches in a game. Sunday's game showed me that Gardie has moved past this ridiculous notion.

 

Good. No more Wes. Hopefully, this is a permanent statement. Or am I not allowed to rip him either? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/embarassed.gif

[danzig6767]

That baseball must look like the size of a beachball leaving Obie's hand,they are on everything he throws.If he starts another game,they need to explain how this line drive machine is our best option to win games.

[ja002h]

There have been a few first pitch outs actually.

[rluzinski]

Wow, Obey is getting rocker, I never would have guessed that. O wait, we all knew.

 

What's scaring is Yost basically said after Obey's last start that they would no longer scip the 5th man. He also said Obey would be the man.

 

Obey, Clark and Helms must battle alot.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Quote:

---

There have been a few first pitch outs actually.

---

 

I figured so, but I still haven't seen the Crew record one.

 

My goodness is this aggravating. And I'm not watching Hack or whatever the hell else is on. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[ja002h]

Oh, so THAT'S what a pitcher looks like.

[batman]

Bruce:

 

I can't control Ben Grieve's actual effort. But when a guy who sucks defensively also plays without any emotion, one can't help but observe what I observed.

 

That's fair. I guess my concern is that there is no real correlation between a player's perceived effort, actual effort, and success... Andruw Jones is exhibit one that perceived "lazy" players can be great players. And how 'bout Jose Lima as someone who apparently cares a whole lot but is still bad? I don't like making judgments on a player's effort, personality, or other "intangibles" without something more substantive than personal observations from a distance.

 

There's no way in hell that Ginter is worse defensively than Grieve. Give him a shot in right and DH Grieve. It's bad enough that Grieve plays as much as he does in RF when we play in NL parks.

 

I love Keith Ginter, probably to an unhealthy extent, but I don't think he's a better right-fielder than Grieve. Maybe a similar right-fielder, but he'd have to really work at it to be even "OK" and that might hurt his offense.

 

As for Obie, you'll get no argument from me. I thought his last start was going to be his last start. If it's not tonight, it might be time to check his locker for dirty pictures of Ned.

 

I agree. Matt Wise is a better option *right now* even if Ben Hendrickson isn't going to be promoted.

 

I have a question: Between being at work and getting my son ready for bed, I haven't been able to watch the entire game with my full undivided attention. But have we swung at a first pitch at all? Every time I've looked, one of our guys is taking a first-pitch strike. Meanwhile, the Twins are swinging at first pitches and killing Wes. Just curious.

 

 

Here's the game log, pitch-by-pitch, with refresh turned off (you can just manually reload to look at it later), care of ESPN.com:

 

sports.espn.go.com/mlb/ga...amp;full=1

 

Players who swung at the first pitch:

- Overbay in the second

- Grieve in the second

- Clark in the third

- Spivey in the third

- Jenkins in the fourth

- Overbay in the fourth

- Hall in the fourth

 

If anything, I think they are swinging *too much* at the first pitch. The only reason Johan's pitch count isn't even tinier is because we are striking out so much.

 

~Bill

[MassBrew]

First time this year, purposely bailing out on a game for no good reason.

 

And yes, I hung around for the entire 9-0 deficit / comeback vs. the Reds.

 

My official lack of Hart and Hendrickson symbol of displeasure.

[batman]

First time this year, purposely bailing out on a game for no good reason.

 

I think you've got a good reason, MB. I'm going to stick it out, just 'cause watching Johan pitch is awesome. God, he's good. It's like watching Ben Sheets, only left-handed, the way he dominates hitters.

 

And as I write that, Ernest Lee Spivey just took him yard. 'At a boy, Junior!!!

 

~Bill

[Bruce Ciskie]

Bill--

 

Agreed re: the pitch count.

 

I don't think the Brewers work the count enough. But lately, it hasn't mattered whether they were swinging at the first pitch or the fifth pitch.

 

At least they scored a run.

[danzig6767]

Working the count might get Santana out sooner,but i doubt it would lead to many more runs against him.Santana vs our sad lineup is like Shawn Bradley trying to guard Shaq.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"God i hate Obie,why does this scrub get so many chances to stink up the joint.Even most of the outs he gets are rockets that find a glove."

 

I'd LOVE to get on a call-in show or a Q&A on the web, and corner Ned, asking him why he continues to give the Brewers virtually no chance in hell of winning just about every game Obermueller starts. I'd also ask him why Clark has to start so damned often, too, of course, but that's for another thread...

 

Honesttogod, what rational explanation could Ned give for putting this team behind the 8-ball every 5th game? Ned CAN prevent this, but chooses not to, and I'd like to know why.

 

Again, I don't wish physical harm upon Obermueller. But for the longer term future of this season, for the greater good if you will, if tonight's latest ass-kicking forced Obermueller either to the pen, to the Indianapolis Indians or to his life's work riding shotgun on a garbage truck, then yes, I'm GLAD it happened.

 

Just watch, the Brewers, down 5-1 thanks to this clown, will rally and win 6-5, and people like Bill "Big Unit" Michaels, Drew Olson and Harold will note our W/L record in games Good Ol' Oby starts, and say "he kept us in the game...he didn't LOSE...he battled, but was getting squeezed...he actually pitched pretty well...it's Grieve's fault, and...it was a quality start!!"

 

And next week, when his turn comes up again, he'll be right back out there, as Matt Wise watches...

 

*sigh*

 

OK, my venting is over. I fell better...

[batman]

That was the first run Dave Burba has allowed in June. He was great in April, he sucked in May, and so far he's been very good in June. His innings total is down, however, although this outing should set him up to be about equal with his previous two months tallies (14 and 11 innings, respectively).

 

Not bad, old man.

 

~Bill

[jwill535]

I am a long time reader of this board, and woudll like to add my 2 cents. I agree that Oby isnt the best pitcher in the world and i feel that he is better served in the Bullpen. He seems to be pretty good for 3-4 innings but after that is done. If you take away the mistakes in this game he would have probably pitched 4-5 scoreless. On the other hand you cant lay all the blame on him. This team needs to know that he is out there and he is going to give up 3-5 runs in a game, sad but true; but the simple fact is that this team is horrible hitting. If i see Jenkins swing at the first pitch i am going to go to Min and beat him myself. How many times this year have we seen Jenkins with guys on base swing at the first one and ground into a double play, it kills me. I am sorry for the long post but instead of looking to the mound for blame lets look to the men swinging the bats.

[batman]

Agreed on all fronts, Geno... 'cept this, sort of:

 

But for the longer term future of this season, for the greater good if you will, if tonight's latest ass-kicking forced Obermueller either to the pen, to the Indianapolis Indians or to his life's work riding shotgun on a garbage truck, then yes, I'm GLAD it happened.

 

I'm not defending Wes' play, but I think we need to lay the blame where it belongs and that's not on Wes... he's pitching just like he has all year - not *awful*, like Rusch circa 2003, but *very bad*. He's trying, he seems like a nice guy, and he has shown the desire and ability to make changes (like adding the curveball to his arsenal). But he's just not very good right now. At the same time, he needs regular starts to improve. The perfect place to get that regular work? Indianapolis.

 

And in defense of Wes, he has a degree in Commercial Recreation from the University of Iowa, a good school. I don't know exactly what that means exactly, but he should be proud that he got his degree. He's obviously a reasonable intelligent guy, and so I'm hesitant to get too personal with the insults.

 

Again... not taking issue with what you said, just issuing a general "hang with 'em" to a guy that is, AFAIK, doing his best. He's just not very good, and we shouldn't be surprised when he performs poorly when given a start against a good team. He's got some raw skills, and I think he could eventually become a better pitcher, but for right now the Brewerfan Nation's anger should be directed at Yost and the rest of the management team for sticking with a guy who is obviously going to be a poor performer in the short term.

 

Matt Wise was a good pitcher before TJS and has been a good pitcher for the Indians and Brewers this year. If Ben Hendrickson's not the guy, then Matty Wise is.

 

Get err done, Team Canada.

 

~Bill

[MassBrew]

Perfect Plan:

 

Matt Wise takes Wes Obermueller's next scheduled turn in Coors Field -- ohmygod, won't that Obermueller stat line be pretty!

 

That way Mr. Hendrickson won't start in Coors Field, where Wise's change-up just might do the trick.

 

Then pitch Ben H. in the doubleheader Friday at Pittsburgh.

 

Oh, and I'm sure it's asking too much to have Corey debut in Pittsburgh as well -- let's not mess him up with Colorado swings.

 

So that's it then - Friday, July 2nd. One, or both, had better be in Brewer uniforms.

 

Seriously...

[jwill535]

ok i am sorry, jenkins took two in row, sorry jenks for blowing up

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif

 

edit: should have been double play with men in scoing again, ever heard of a fly ball.

[danzig6767]

He's got some raw skills, and I think he could eventually become a better pitcher

 

I hope i'm wrong,but i see very little future for Wes.He doesnt throw hard and none of his secondary pitches are exactly above average,he's just kinda there.He doesnt get strikeouts and gives up a boatload of hits,that's what you get from guys with very below average stuff.

 

I dont fault the trade much that brought him here,but it's a bust,those often happen when trading mediocre relief pitchers.Maybe he goes down to Indy and keeps his career alive long enough to hang around the majors for some years,with this many teams even scrub pitchers often can get 12th man jobs that pay 6 figures.I wish him luck even if i don't like his odds,his pitches find way to many line drives.

[batman]

Lose, lose, lose. That's three in a row, and that's not good.

 

Johan + Juan + Joe = Twin Win

 

Those three are good.

 

~Bill

[davego]

I just find it hard to believe that Wes is one of the top 5 starters the whole organization has to offer (gee, maybe he isn't).

[bucksbeat]

The only semi-exciting thing about the was that the benches cleared. Of course I'm glad no punches were thrown, but I get a hoot out of everyone being on the field.

 

I have no idea what Doug was upset about. Bennett took a baseball slide, and isn't exactly the type of guy I would want to mess with. He looks like he has a couple of good bar fights in him.

 

Should make for an interesting rest of the series, Ned didn't seem all too happy with it.

 

I also got a kick out of what Ben Sheets did. Everyone else went right towards the Twins and Ben lagged behind a bit, looking over everyone's shoulders like "What's going on over there?"

[Shampoo4U]

At least 6 games under .500 at All-Star break. Wednesday was the start of a bad slide for this team. They will be lucky to win 3 games on the roadtrip.

[PeaveyFury]

Could someone else have caught that ball? Maybe. Clark probably could have gloved it five times out of ten, or maybe a bit less. It certainly wasn't a routine play. To describe it as such is disingenous.

 

Just to point out, Uecker himself said that Grieve took a terrible route and probably should have caught it.....