6/25/2004 - Brewers (Obermueller) @ Twins (Santana)

[batman]

Ginter makes an effort to get better as a fielder. Grieve has gotten worse since he first came up, and he acts like he could care less.

 

How has he gotten worse? Do you have any data to suggest that, or is it just your intuition? And how do you know whether or not Ben "cares" or "makes an effort"? Do you speak with him every day? Do you watch him practice every day? Do you have insider info from the coaching staff?

 

Andruw Jones looks like he's dogging it all the time. Is he a bad defender?

 

I'm sorry, but your personal observations and hunches about Grieve as a person are entirely unwanted. You don't know him *at all*, and to make judgments about his effort without the aforementioned knowledge of his routine is unfair.

 

~Bill

[AJAY]

A runner gets stranded at second.

 

Surprise, surprise.

[bucksbeat]

That ball short hopped the wall... that's exactly what I said. It wasn't a flyball, it was a line drive. In order to make that play, Grieve has to get a good read and make a running/leaping catch going back and to his right.

 

But that's "easy", right?

 

If you have Tivo you might want to watch it again. No leap was necessary if he would have taken a correct route. That simple.

 

Grieve's offensive contributions far outweigh his defensive shortcomings.

 

Far outweigh? I don't think so. I'd call it a stalemate. Craig Biggio's defensive struggles in Houston were outweighed by his offensive contributions. Not Grieve.

[Member]

Where are Corey Hart and Ben Hendrickson again?

[danzig6767]

Grieve's offensive contributions far outweigh his defensive shortcomings.

 

I'd remove that word far

 

He's a mediocre at best hitting corner OF who is dreadfull on defense,Brady is a sad hitting corner OF who is solid on defense.It's like deciding is you want Obie or Kinney as your 5th starter,you dont want either.

[emunney]

Bruce, point taken on Grieve's defense, it seems to have declined, but I haven't watched him enough over the course of his career to say how much. If you have, I'll defer happily.

 

As far as Santana, he's the real deal and doesn't belong in the same sentence as Cook and Chacon.

 

EDIT: Unless the sentence begins, "The following pitchers have the capacity to shut down the Brewers:..."

[AJAY]

I love how we lose two games in a row and everyone is getting really testy. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

It's a good sign that we aren't used to losing. Better than previous seasons.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Bill--

 

I'm not sure if Ben's in your pocket, but I think you're the one making assumptions about people.

 

You assume that I questioned Ben's character. All I said was that he ACTS like he could care less. If you'd read back a few years, you'd find that is one of the biggest knocks on Grieve. He's nonchalant. He doesn't show emotion. Never really has.

 

Well, it drives me nuts. If you have the ability, go back and watch some Oakland games from Grieve's younger days. I used to watch them all the time because ESPN didn't have many Wednesday night late game options. You'll find that he has regressed defensively, not so much in terms of fielding percentage, but in range and his ability to judge where the ball is going. The defensive numbers might be better for all I know, but I don't pay much attention to them.

 

As for the Andruw Jones comparison, it's one of the more ridiculous things I've read in a while, and I read a Sid Hartman newspaper column last week. They're not even in the same league in terms of talent. I'll take Andruw Jones "dogging it" over Ben Grieve "dogging it" any day.

 

And the comment about his offense was equally absurd. He's hitting .265. Hardly lighting it up, though like I said, he's adequate with the stick. That means you should DH him when you can...and tonight certainly qualifies.

 

EDIT: Erik--I live in Minnesota. I've seen most of Santana's starts. We're making him look better than he's looked all season.

[ja002h]

Except the game threads aren't as fun when they soley consist of people sniping each other.

[ja002h]

Wow, lil Gammons bashing goin onhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

"Little more than a gossip columnist"

[batman]

BucksBeat:

 

I looked at that play again, and like I said, I think Brady Clark makes that catch five times out of ten. Maybe a few more, but it's certainly not a routine play. It's not a "oh-my-god-grieve-you-suck-so-bad-barf" play. He had a couple of those during the West Coast road trip... this wasn't one of them.

 

Danzig:

 

*Compared with Brady Clark*, Grieve's offense far outweighs his defense. That was what I was attempting to say... he's about average offensively for an NL right-fielder. Obviously, his defensive problems put him somewhat below average. But Brady Clark is ok-to-good defensively and very bad offensively, and so it's not really even particularly close.

 

But you're right... it's like comparing Obie to Kinney. I agree. Corey Hart wins, but that's another thread.

 

Bruce:

 

You assume that I questioned Ben's character. All I said was that he ACTS like he could care less.

 

So there's a difference between saying "Ben Grieve doesn't care" and "Ben Grieve acts like he doesn't care"? If so, why even make that second observation? If there's no correlation between how much you think Ben cares and how much Ben actually cares, why even bother posting? Your indictment of his "perceived effort" implicitly indicted his actual effort. Yet, you have zero first-hand knowledge of Ben's work habits or preparation. Zero.

 

If you'd read back a few years, you'd find that is one of the biggest knocks on Grieve. He's nonchalant. He doesn't show emotion. Never really has.

 

And that's bad why? And it's relevant to his playing how?

 

The comparison to Andruw Jones is *spot on*. Andruw, like Grieve, is *perceived* to be non-chalant, lazy, and unemotional. He's a great defensive outfielder and a great hitter. I'm not comparing the results, I'm comparing the perceptions of effort... both players are perceived to lack effort.

 

If you have no problem with Andruw not being "emotional" or "showing that he cares," how can you take issue with Ben's disposition on the field?

 

And the comment about his offense was equally absurd. He's hitting .265. Hardly lighting it up, though like I said, he's adequate with the stick. That means you should DH him when you can...and tonight certainly qualifies.

 

His OPS is more than 100 points higher than Brady Clark's. There is no way that Brady makes up that much offensive difference by being good with the glove. None. If any of the Grieve critics want to make the argument that his defense outweighs that offensive improvement, I'd be glad to read. "He doesn't know how to play defense" isn't going to cut it, though.

 

And I have no problem with DHing him whenever possible. Tonight, however, that would mean either Ginter or Hall wouldn't be playing against the left-hander and Liefer would be. Do you really want that to happen? I don't.

 

I'd rather have any number of players as our starting right-fielder than Ben Grieve. Corey Hart, for one. But Brady Clark is *not* one of them. Neither is Jeff Liefer. And at this point, less playing time for Grieve means more playing time for Clark and/or Liefer. That's not going to help the team, and that's why I defend Grieve.

 

~Bill

[bucksbeat]

Nice little Tampa Bay/Brazelton plug on FSN. He's throwing a no hitter into the eighth, but has six walks.

[ja002h]

I say we kidnap H&H and drop them off in Milwaukee and then NO one can have anymore gripes. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[ja002h]

Obie's certainly doing what he can to maintain that 6+ ERA

[batman]

I don't think we'd have to kidnap them, I'm pretty sure both would come willingly. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

And honestly, who wouldn't rather have Ben Hendrickson on the mound and Corey Hart in right field tonight?

 

We're arguing about Ben Grieve and Brady Clark and Jeff Liefer and Wes Obermueller. Grieve is a nice player who can be valuable offensively, but the rest are really very small pieces of a winning club. Even Grieve, for that matter. He'd be a great bat off the bench for an AL team, or a DH against right-handers.

 

But we've got Corey Hart and Ben Hendrickson ready and waiting. It's time to give them a chance.

 

~Bill

[bucksbeat]

Bill --

 

I now understand what you are saying. I wasn't really comparing Ben Grieve's defensive performance to Brady's. I was just mentioning that overall his offense is not worth his lack of defense. You could say the same thing about Brady Clark with his defense not worth his lack of offense. It really can't be a one sided arguement with all of the recent Brady bashing going on lately. Neither of them belong on the team.

 

Grieve is best suited in the AL and Brady is best suited to be a fifth OF option, not a back-up. If we don't bring up Hart or sign a FA, I would be willing to see what Ginter can do in Left and stick Jenkins in Right (where he belongs anyways).

 

So there's a difference between saying "Ben Grieve doesn't care" and "Ben Grieve acts like he doesn't care"?

 

Well. I wouldn't say either way. However, there is a reason that Lou Pinella didn't like him.

[batman]

LOL... haven't seen Geoff fall down on a swing-and-miss for a while. 'At a boy, Jenks... brings back all kinds of memories, circa 1998. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Johan is soooo good. Why can't he be ours?

 

~Bill

[tomwopat]

geoff gives new meaning to "sit him down swinging"

[ja002h]

TB no-no just broken up in the 8th - double by Lowell

[MassBrew]

Have you ever felt less confident of a possible victory down 2-0 in the 4th inning in your life?

 

For god's sake, just get this one over with.

[batman]

MB:

 

Ron Gardenhire described the first game of the previous series like that, saying that (paraphrasing) "it felt like we were down 5 or 6 to nothing". It feels like that tonight.

 

Have I mentioned that Johan is really good?

 

~Bill

[danzig6767]

God i hate Obie,why does this scrub get so many chances to stink up the joint.Even most of the outs he gets are rockets that find a glove.

[MassBrew]

Wes' ERA through four innings for this game -- 6.75

 

Right on target.

 

Now I worry that because Hart and Hendrickson were named All-Stars, they won't be brought up before late July.

 

Fudge.

[bernieh]

Yeah, even disregarding how foolish he's making us look, just looking at his stuff you can tell he's special. It seems like he can spot that changeup anywhere and any time he wants to.

[Member]

[Doing my clancy impression]

 

Where are Hart and Hendrickson?

 

[/Doing my clancy impression]