06/26 - Brewers (Franklin) @ Cubs (Prior)

[LouisEly]

Scoop, what's the point of holding on to Jenkins to simply try and achieve the lame .500 goal?... He'll be 8M next year, and Jenkins always manages to wind up injured while trying to make some spectacular play. He's gone on record as saying he's not going to change how he plays the game.

 

Why play for 2003, when there's a better chance for a legitimate shot down the road.

 

 

Who did we get for Greg Vaughn again?

[batman]

Right after a game-winning home run and amidst of a torrid hot streak it's difficult to objectively weigh the pros and cons of trading a guy. I think cooler heads will prevail in the next couple days, assuming Jenkins doesn't hit 5 more bombs (which isn't out of the question).

 

I'm savoring the win... that was sweet.

 

~Bill

[thebruce44]

Right on batman...you guys need to evaluate objectivly. Jenkins is good, but he is injury prone and increadbly streaky. Maybe we are seeing the real Jenks now, the one that we all thought he was going to be before the injury years. Maybe he will revert back to the big swing and injuries.

 

The fact of the matter is that you trade high, and Jenkins is higher than most of my stoner friends right now. If he keeps this up, it would be difficult not to add some serious talent to the AA or A+ level so that we get an even bigger push 2 yrs from now.

[scoop53714]

ok I am as excited for our current crop of minor leaguers as anyone BUT you still have to have a core of big leaguers in your lineup when the youngsters get to milw. Never has a team filled out a lineup card on april 1st with 8 position players who all played in the minors the previous year. Yes we have some studs coming up but trading all our big league talent to add to that crop isnt all that important. We are eventually going to need a mix of current brewers and guys like hardy, fielder, weeks and hart.

 

We cant just keep trading legit players so someday we can start 8 minor league studs.

[DHonks]

Jenkins is on fire now, but you really think he and Sexson will come back to Milwaukee when their contracts are up? It's laughable to think that. Looking at AAA, Rushford and Smith are deserving of promotions, and Zocolillo could also deserve a shot. I think all three would fit the team's need of a gritty player who can get the job done and will give 100% each time out.

[scoop53714]

Dhonks,

 

I am hopping that was a "tongue in cheek" post. I love the Brewers but I sure as hell wouldnt drop 50 bones for a 90 minute drive to milwaukee to watch a lineup made up of a crew of journeymen like that. Jenkins and Sexson are the core of this team. Dont be so sure that they wouldnt be willing to sign extensions in hopes of repaying the team that made them remarkably rich. They know better times are ahead and it may seem naive but I believe they would rather stick around for the good times than go to the Yankees and get a cheap ring.

[RealityCheck]

scoop53714

 

Your telling me that Sexson and Jenkins would turn down the Yankees for the Brewers. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/roll.gif

 

If your goal isn't the World Series (or as you say "a cheap ring") then why bother playing at all. Just retire and let some people who do want a World Series ring get a chance to play.

[squarepusher]

[ Who would replace jenks if he left? Let me know about all your brilliant ideas. ]

 

- I think bars should have single service cigarette machines

- I think the open faced sandwich is an abomination and should be abolished

- I think the Brewers do not have the talent it takes to be trying to make a push in 2003.

- I think the Brewers do not have the talent it takes to be trying to make a push in 2004.

- I think that a low existing payroll will allow the Brewers to take on salary in trades in 2004 and sign free agents in 2005 to field a team that will certainly be in contention in 2006

 

and regarding Greg Vaughn, the trade netted:

- Marc Newfield.... he was a bust, but contrary to popular belief, he wasn't the only player Vaughn was traded for.

- Ron Villone (we won't mention his role in the Grissom debacle) who gave us two solid years in 1996 (3.28 ERA) and 1997 (3.42 ERA)

- Bryce Florie... who gave us a decent year in 1996 (4.32 ERA, mostly in relief with 8 starts)... He was traded for Mike Myers along with Santiago Perez (and Rick Greene)

 

Vaughn would have been a free agent... Do we think Vaughn would have resigned with Milwaukee at a normal market rate?

[950opsLHcatcher]

Vaughn has done about as much in the last few years as the other guys, for what it's worth.

 

Does Jenkins make us better right now? Yes

Do we have anything close to as good as Jenkins to fill in? No

Do we have a corner OF in our system that right now could be projected to hit like Jenkins? No

Is Jenkins a darn good bat when he's healthy? Yes

Is there a risk of trading for non-major league players? Absolutely

 

Are we going to be competetive with Jenkins in the next 2-3 years? No

Might Jenkins be past his prime once the team becomes good? Possibly

Will he become injured for an extended period in that interval? Quite possibly

Could his trade value get any higher than it is now? 50/50

Is his offensive production right now a fluke? Could be

 

With all those factors combined, would I recommend trading Jenkins? I don't know. By trading him, you are pretty much giving up hope for the rest of the season at least, and add another gaping hole into the lineup. If you trade him for a few top-tier prospects, there is even more hope for the future, but those guys may turn out to be nothing. It's a tough call. If you wait til next season, he turns into a rent-a-player, which probably doesn't help his trade value. I guess unless I was blown away by an offer I wouldn't trade him, because the team needs to keep some semblance of value on the major league squad, to appease the fans and show some little bit of dignity.

[scoop53714]

It is not popular belief that all we got for Vaughn was Newfield. Everyone knows the deal. The Brewers were backed into a corner on that occasion. He pretty much had to go but the point is that the players we got back really didnt help us get competative. We had to trade Vaughn. We dont have to trade Jenkins.

 

Lets not forget that Vaughn joined the 50+ hr club soon after being dealt. It doesnt really matter but its just a case of a proven player being dealt for prospects who turn out to be fools gold.

[scoop53714]

Square were you consulting your magic 8 ball for all of those predictions?

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[(I think the Brewers do not have the talent it takes to be trying to make a push in 2003.

- I think the Brewers do not have the talent it takes to be trying to make a push in 2004.

- I think that a low existing payroll will allow the Brewers to take on salary in trades in 2004 and sign free agents in 2005 to field a team that will certainly be in contention in 2006]]]]]]]}

 

How in the name of Paul Mirabella can you pretend to know how our roster will shape up in 2004 much less 05 and 06??? Of course we could compete as early as next year. Look at THIS year for example. We are only 9 games out and have played above .500 for the last 40 or so games. We could add a starter and a bat and really turn things around. We have a scrappy team right now that could be easily improved with the right

additions.

 

 

More importantly SQUARE, you didnt answer my question. Who do you suppose milwaukee could lure in Jenkins place who could put up his numbers for cheaper? Where is the list?

[squarepusher]

[ Square were you consulting your magic 8 ball for all of those predictions? ]

 

They were simply projections.... Keith Ginter may be the second coming of Jeff Kent, but I doubt it. Many people here would agree that a team with this payroll won't be competitive until a combination of home grown talent and acquired talent is set to go. It's common knowledge that Melvin's plan for the home-grown portion of this plan will be ready to go by 2005. I'm not saying all Huntsvillian's labelled as prospects will be superstars, but more than one should be major league caliber ballplayers.

 

Ned has the team playing above their heads right now, and it's great to watch.... but don't expect them to get all that much better this year. The team has about 2 and a half decent starters and a bullpen that's not as solid as last year's.

 

More importantly SQUARE, you didnt answer my question. Who do you suppose milwaukee could lure in Jenkins place who could put up his numbers for cheaper? Where is the list?

 

When did I ever say there was a list? Don't get so combative. Jenkins is reasonably prices this year, but 8.25M next year is quite a reach. Is it inconceivable to believe that Sexson or Jenkins couldn't be moved for OF talent? Jose Cruz Jr's only making 2.5M this year, and the team has an option on him for 4M next year. He certainly wouldn't have signed this year with the Brewers, but a team that has talent, it'd be a different story.

 

There are bargains to be had every off-season. just realize that the production we get out of a streaking Geoff Jenkins is not the production we'll always see from Geoff.

[squarepusher]

[ Lets not forget that Vaughn joined the 50+ hr club soon after being dealt. It doesnt really matter but its just a case of a proven player being dealt for prospects who turn out to be fools gold. ]

 

We should never had traded that Wickman guy away either... after all, he was a proven veteran. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[scoop53714]

When did I ever say there was a list? Don't get so combative. Jenkins is reasonably prices this year, but 8.25M next year is quite a reach.

 

 

All I am asking is for you to provide some names as options for a more reasonable price with equal on field value.

[nikip43]

Milwaukee has Brad Nelson to replace Geoff Jenkins down the road...he and Prince can't both play 1st.

 

Aside from that though...look at Seattle

 

Cameron, Winn, Ichiro, Maclamore (not sure)...neither of those players can hit 30, 20, heck, even 10 homers (though Cameron has hit some before). Your outfielders don't have to fit the protypical bill of "power hitters". The only big bat in Seattles lineup is Brett Boone...their 2nd baseman, and I doubt hes hits 40 a year consistantly.

 

You dont necessairly need power. Gwynn, Pods, Krynzle

[batman]

Jeez, the mud sure is a-slingin' tonight. You'd think the tone of the discussion would be a little brighter after sweeps of the [hated] Twinkies and Cubbies but some of you are just plain cranky. :D

 

The fundamental disagreement seems to be over a simple but at the same time difficult question: Is one willing to sacrifice this year's on-the-field product to provide benefits for the future?. Obviously, the depth of the sacrifice and the amount of benefit for the future are important to this discussion... but in general, we have two opposing camps: those that want to "fire sell" anything we can get value for and those that want to keep the nucleus of this year's team together and add components to it.

 

The one thing that both sides can agree on is that trading this year's players for younger, higher-ceiling guys that are ready to play now would be a good idea. Unfortunately, the kind of players we're going to get in trades are probably at least 1 year away and sometimes 2-4 years away. The closer a guy is to the big leagues, the less likely he is to be a "good"/top prospect.

 

Soooo... do we swap players like Sexson and Jenkins for prospects and fill in the holes on this year's club with AAA players or do we hang on to our core of guys and build around them?

 

That's the fundamental conundrum that we (and Melvin/the organization) face. There is no easy answer... so the best we can do is be civil about it and respect the opinions of others.

 

Cool?

 

Peacemakin',

~Bill

[Yaz]

Scoop typed, and egad I agreed with this...

 

If we are stupid enough to trade jenkins then I never ever ever ever want to hear another brewer fan ***** about how we never have any talent on this team again. We finally get a big time stud in our lineup and all of a sudden we decide its time for another team to reep the benifits?

 

Good grief. The grass always seems to be greener for brewer fans like you. Unproven talent for a guy who can flat out rake ? No thanks.

 

================================================

 

Brett Favre is having fun with his summer 2nd job! GO JENKINS GO! He is EN FUEGO! Now the only thing I am getting worried about is his next injury.

 

Square and et al you guys are going to give Scoop a cornea! Leave the poor guy alone. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

 

Cubs lose, Cubs lose!!!!

[1992casey]

Quote:

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A side note: The Cubs announcers made the comment, (not accurate, but close to quoted)..."its hard to find a young 3rd baseman...Milwaukee has one in Helms"

 

Im not sure if thats just jelousy because they have Hernandez, but thats quite the compliment.

---

 

It's because they haven't found a third baseman to replace Ron Santo.

[scotty po fan]

I like looking for the future and if we can get some quality top tier prospects I say trade Jenks but if we can't don't trade him just cause he is on a tear and his value is high I mean This club is only 9 games out of first place crazier things have happened......It's a long shot but this team is gutsy and never gives up. We can surprise some people and make a little run yet! I am Not saying we are going to make the playoffs but we could make it interesting come August and September which we haven't done in a long long time!

[Dollarbill13]

- I think the Brewers do not have the talent it takes to be trying to make a push in 2004.

 

Didn't I read somewhere that the Brewers are right around .500 in games that weren't started by Glendon Rusch or Ruben Quevedo? The Brewers payroll on the books for next year is right around 25 million. We've seen it up around the 50 million mark just a year ago. Don't you think it would be possible for us to spend some of that difference on a couple free agent pitchers and maybe a decent OF who could each be 5-10 games over .500 for the Brewers? Given the current state of the NL central, a team with 87 to 90 wins would be right in the thick of it.

[squarepusher]

[ Given the current state of the NL central, a team with 87 to 90 wins would be right in the thick of it. ]

 

That's a best-case-scenario outlook, and it assumes:

 

- The NL Central will remain tight next year

- Players who are exceeding expectations in 1st half 2003 (Podsednik, Jenkins, Sexson, Kinney, Perez, Estrella, Kieschnick) will be around next year

- Players acquired to play in 2004 will meet or exceed expectations

- The injury bug that has so far NOT plagued the Brewers, will stay away.

 

I think point number 4 has been huge for the club this year. I'm not going to talk much more about it, because I don't want to be the one who jinxes it.

[whizkid]

Don't you think it would be possible for us to spend some of that difference on a couple free agent pitchers and maybe a decent OF who could each be 5-10 games over .500 for the Brewers?

 

If the Brewers win 65-70 games this year, that won't be enough to erase the notion that Milwaukee is a bad, losing place to play. Next winter they're still going to have to overpay to get worthwhile FA talent.

 

Given the current state of the NL central, a team with 87 to 90 wins would be right in the thick of it.

 

I'd rather aim to be Seattle or Atlanta than aiming to be Houston, St. Louis or the Cubs, even if it takes 2 or 3 years longer. I'd rather the Brewers not squander money or prospects trying to be 'in the thick of it'.

[Dollarbill13]

I'd rather aim to be Seattle or Atlanta than aiming to be Houston, St. Louis or the Cubs, even if it takes 2 or 3 years longer. I'd rather the Brewers not squander money or prospects trying to be 'in the thick of it'.

 

We'd all agree with you on that, but I think that if the Brewers can add two pitchers in FA this year, They would a around a .500 team with a ceiling of 87 to 90 wins. You've gotta remember though, we'd still have all of our prospects incoming over the next two years, practically for free. Playing on a decent team would probably ease the transition for Hardy, Krynzel, etc and allow them to become comfortable in the majors quicker than if they were the only good players on the team with the rest comprised of pizza delivery men.

[brewmann04]

I agree As long as Jenks is healthy he be a very good player and the brewers need to keep him.

 

I can see them trading sexson first since 1st base in the minors seem to be rich with talented 1st base prospects

[Sheets4theHOF]

Quote:

---

. You've gotta remember though, we'd still have all of our prospects incoming over the next two years, practically for free. Playing on a decent team would probably ease the transition for Hardy, Krynzel, etc and allow them to become comfortable in the majors quicker than if they were the only good players on the team with the rest comprised of pizza delivery men.

---

 

Very well said. The most ideal situation for the crew to be in is this. Melvin builds on the core of Jenkins, Sexson, Sheets with low priced players who play hard and a few bargin veteren free agents. Get that team to be competative and when the Huntsville boys are ready, replace those low priced guys/FA with the talent from the minors.

 

If the brewers' front office simply has the attitude of, "well there is no way we have the talent to win this year and most likely not next year either. Might as well trade what little major league talent we have for young unproven talent and win in 2-4 years." That will put way too much pressure on young guys who will be adjusting to life in the majors. They will need vets like Jenks and Sexson who put put big numbers and can show the young guys the way.

 

Yes this is the most ideal situation, but I believe it is more affective then simply putting all your eggs in the AA basket.