8/8/05 - Cardinals (Morris) @ Brewers (Vampire) - 7:05 CST

[naivin]

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I'd say they weren't given the proper chance to be put into a situation to win the game because of how the PH was handled in the 4th.

 

I'd say that the pitching faltered down the stretch was also to blame.

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Victor Santos couldn't get past the 4th inning. That is where the game was lost. The fact the hitting for him in the 4th, whether Branyan or MacGruder was a complete no-brainer, pretty much says it all. You may be able to get away with it against a team like the Mets, but if you find yourself in that position against a team like the Cardinals, you're done.

[DougJones43]

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which option gave you the better chance to get at least one run

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we were down by 2. we're playing the cardinals. we have the bases loaded with just 1 out and our goal is to come out of it down by 1??? just hoping for 1 run in that situation is a problem. not exactly the mentality you want to try and beat the best team in the NL.

[DHarris34Phan]

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Had he sent Branyan up and he struck out, or didn't get a run in, and the Brewers tallied nothing in that inning, why would you have condoned that?

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BECAUSE BRANYAN IS A BETTER HITTER THAN CHRIS MAGRUDER. Just because the outcome could have been the same, doesn't justify the decision to send the worse hitter to the plate.

[bsglorydays]

Pitching is the reason this game was lost, plain and simple. With an off day coming up on Thursday, its time to skip Victor the next time through the rotation, IMO. He is not getting the job and shows no signs of turning it around any time soon.

[NeedMoreFans]

I'll take it back to even before the 4th inning. Why doesn't Yost start the best 8 players available? Branyan holds his own as a starter and Helms is great as a pinch hitter. Hardy or Hall is a wash. He should play the best 8 to begin with.

 

edit: Hall is a better hitter...and his D isn't too bad, so maybe it's not a wash.

[naivin]

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just hoping for 1 run in that situation is a problem.

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Please read...AT LEAST 1 run. But you are actually helping me explain exactly what my point is. Again, my opinion, but I believe your risk of coming away with nothing in that inning is far greater if you send Branyan and his 0-11 with 8k record as a pinch hitter up there. If he K's you have no chance at a run in that AB. MacGruder is more likely to put it in play wherby you at least have a shot at a run.

[bsglorydays]

He should play the best 8 to begin with.

 

I've been avoiding all the discussion regarding the PH in the 4th... But this takes the cake. You're actually questioning the lineup card? It would be pretty easy to argue that the game would not even be as close as 8-4 had Helms not played. Was it just the decision to start Helms that you are questioning, or are there other positions that were not filled by the best option, too?

[endaround]

Why is it so hard to understand that the reason that Magruder was not the correct choice isn't because he failed, but because he had the least cahcne of success? Even if Magruder got a hit, it still would have been a bad choice. The fact that they still allow Magruder to switch hit says more about this coaching staff than anything else.

 

And if you think 11 ABs proves anything, please. And just putting the ball in play with the bases loaded is not a good thing.

[DHarris34Phan]

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Why is it so hard to understand that the reason that Magruder was not the correct choice isn't because he failed, but because he had the least cahcne of success?

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Good question.

[DougJones43]

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MacGruder is more likely to put it in play wherby you at least have a shot at a run

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or hit into a dp, or tap a grounder that gets us nothing. i guess we just differ in philosophy. against st. louis, i'd assume go for a big inning if we get the chance, even if it might be at the expense of giving ourselves a chance at that 1 run. and i still think we had a better chance of just 1 run with branyan, plus he gives us at least a decent opportunity for an XBH to break it open. magruder is just awful.

[naivin]

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BECAUSE BRANYAN IS A BETTER HITTER THAN CHRIS MAGRUDER.

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Not as a PH he isn't. One more time...Branyan pinch hitting: 0-11 with 8 K's. That's a BA of almost .000. You simply can't ignore that. If there is anything that should not be condoned, it would be sending a guy up there that history would indicate has a far, far, far greater likelihood of strikig out in that situation, than getting a hit, or even putting the ball in play. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument though.

 

Now, if you want to argue that Branyan should be starting at 3B, that I may be able to go along with (despite the fact Helms was a big part of the offense tonight).

[DHarris34Phan]

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If there is anything that should not be condoned, it would be sending a guy up there that history would indicate has a far, far, far greater likelihood of strikig out in that situation, than getting a hit, or even putting the ball in play.

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Far, Far, Far? 11 at bats? Come on.

[naivin]

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Far, Far, Far? 11 at bats? Come on.

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No, striking out in almost 75% of those 11 AB's.

[DHarris34Phan]

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No, striking out in almost 75% of those 11 AB's.

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Well, in that case, Magruder must be a better hitter than Branyan.

[NeedMoreFans]

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Was it just the decision to start Helms that you are questioning, or are there other positions that were not filled by the best option, too?

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Only Wes Helms starting. I cringe when I see him field a ball. Plus, it's always good to have someone on the bench who can come up to the plate from the bench and get a hit, which Helms has excelled at this year.

[Brew Crewsader]

Just got back from the game as well, and have a few comments of my own.

 

1) Cardinal fans are the rudest, most obnoxious people I have ever met. They used to be decent, but now most have become arrogant snobs. I wanted to punch many, many of them, but alas, I resisted. It doesnt help when half of them fill the park.

 

2) Why the heck did Daron Sutton tell the fans to wear white today? Does he realize the Cards colors are red and white? How is wearing white supposed to phase out the red. It sure seemed like there were even more Cards fans in the building than actually were. Who knows how many actually heeded his advice though?

 

3) Victor Santos is not a good SP, and should be replaced. Soon.

 

4) Dana Eveland pitched decent, worked himself out of some tight spots. He needs to keep the ball down to be good. A lot of his pitches were up, up, up, but yet he worked out of it.

 

5) Brady Clark should not be a leadoff hitter. He swings at the first pitch, every time. And he is not fast.

 

6) Rickie Weeks is horrible at fielding. Minus his error in the 4th, he bounced an easy DP ball to O-Bay, and luckily Overbay got a sunday hop on it. Add in his boneheaded play where he could have gunned down Pujols going to second, on that ball that Edmonds hit off the wall in the 4th. I mean, it was close even after he threw it after holding it and not turning around for at least 2 sec.

 

5) Sol Taguchi is a good fielder. Very good. How he ran down Clark's ball in the 9th, and got to Damian's in the later innings is beyond me.

 

6) Matt Wise is fading, big time.

 

7) All the cardinal runs scored with 2 outs, minus Grudzialanek's homer. Thats unacceptable. Why couldnt be put them away?

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif Last thing for now, I really dislike Cardinals fans

 

Positives: Got on the scoreboard as Sandy maxx interviewed fan of the game, and also met Bob Brainerd, which I'm really not sure is an honor.

[bsglorydays]

I cringe when I see him field a ball.

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

I can respect that.

[Brew Crewsader]

And about the Magruder PH thing, it didnt turn out to be a big deal as he hit the ball, and the runner was SAFE at home. Mahoney pulled off home plate, it was plain as day. I watched it time and time again on the TV screens there, I still believe he was off the bag.

 

Another comment: The umpire sucked. Why did he not go out and break up the Cards' little huddles on the mound than he did? He gave them well over a minute. Plus he was super inconsistent with his calls. I disagreed with almost half of them. And the called Strike 3 on jenks made me very angry.

 

And why oh why does Branyan always swing for the fences, and swing at pitches in the dirt? Helms played good tonight, I'd stick with him tomorrow. Billy Hall should have hit in Branyan's place tonight as well. He had a real big battle with Tavarez earlier in the year, which I believe he then hit a two-run double down the RF line to put the Crew ahead. Righty-Righty isnt the smartest matchup I know, but I'd rather have Hall in there than Branyan.

[naivin]

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Well, in that case, Magruder must be a better hitter than Branyan.

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As a PH this year, as a matter of fact he is.

 

I'm done with this pointless argument. They lost tonight because Victor Santos is bad. The decision in the 4th ining meant very little (Victor Santos put them in that situation), and beyond that, I simply don't believe Ned Yost's decision making is to blame for any higher a percentage of the Brewer's losses as most managers in baseball. Its funny, go to any board like this of any team that is .500-ish or worse and see the same discussions taking place. With the exception of places like Boston, St. Louis, Atlanta, the manager is an idiot. More often than not, good players make good managers.

[Brew Crewsader]

I typed all that, and then the talk just ends? Jeez. What a waste http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif

[brettac1]

You're arguing over 11 measly AB's? What's the point?

[NeedMoreFans]

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Righty-Righty isnt the smartest matchup I know, but I'd rather have Hall in there than Branyan.

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Not as bad as lefty-lefty. I know, lefty-lefty didn't come up...

 

You know, I guess all said and done, the cards still scored 8, and no matter what, we probably wouldn't have had that many in the game. This shows how bad we need a better 5th starter and how our long relief still needs help.

[Bikeage77]

I just got back from the game, and read a lot of this thread before deciding to reply, everyone agreed we gotta keep mistakes to a minimum...

 

1) Top 2: Weeks error, didn't matter, we got the DP to get out of it.

 

2) Top 4: Weeks got the cutoff from Clark (I think, I couldn't tell who threw it, I was in the RF Bleachers), then just kinda lolly gagged the throw to 2nd, could have gotten Pujols easy if he just turned and fired. That's the idea of a cutoff, right? It cost us a run.

 

3) Bottom 4: Bat Magruder with the bases juiced?!?! I read a lot of people saying to save yer better hitters for later. You think runs are gonna come easy against this team? You gotta take every opportunity to score runs no matter what inning it is.

 

4) Top 8: Clark needs to forget the runner and go to the cutoff, it led to a second run scoring and taking the crowd out of the game (except those yelling at Clark in the bleachers). It led to a run.

 

4.5) Bottom 8: This one can be argued, but I hit Hall here, Branyan will try to tie it up, Hall looks for the base hit to score Hardy.

 

I'm not really concerned with batting Durrington in the top of the order, if he reaches, he's a threat to steal second. I just hope we can rebound and win tomorrow. I have faith in Sheets on Wednesday.

 

On a side note Eveland did a nice job in relief, but used a LOT of pitches that first inning, something liike 28. He only needed 9 or 10 in the 6th.

[naivin]

Doug needs to stand and deliver tomorrow, especially after his last outing. Sheets did it. Ohka did it. Now it is up to Doug to do the same - especially against a rookie pitcher. Tomorrow is a big day for this team. Need to give Sheets a chance to win the series on Wednesday.

[Brew Crewsader]

Does anyone else think Brady Clark should have dived for that ball in the top of the 8th? Theres two outs, why play the hop? Get dirty, Brady!

 

Otherwise, a major turning point in the game also came in the 8th. Wise got the balk call, putting Edmonds?(maybe Pujols) on second. JJ made a dazzling play getting the runner on 2nd into a pickle going to third, leaving Grudz on first. The major play was Grudzielanek then going and stealing 2nd base. That was HUGE for them. Next hit was the ball to Brady by Nunez in center, which he did not catch, and thus, Grudz scores a run rather than being on 3rd. Brady has to realize he doesnt have the arm to throw him out. Theres two outs, why not dive for that ball? If it gets past so be it. The runner still would have scored.