8/10/05 - Cardinals (Suppan) @ Brewers (Big Ben) - 1:05 CST

[naivin]

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i base my comments on what gives us the best chance, not what worked and what didn't.

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Fine. So with 2AB's left for each team and hindsight aside, what gives you the best chance to keep guys like Pujols, Edmunds, Eckstein, Grd, etc.from scoring again, Ben Sheets who was at 80-ish pitches and had been completely lights out, or the Brewer bullpen?

 

There is only one correct answer, and it certainly isn't the bullpen. I have no doubt, that was the bigger concern for Yost. If MacGruder comes up with a hit there, you have Sheets with a chance to hold a 1 run lead at least through the 8th and then go to Turnbow if you want. If the Brewers fail to score in the 7th, you still have two more AB's with the top of the order due up (after MacGruder) where every batter represents the tying run. Especially considering the Brewer bullpen, that decision for me anyway was a no-brainer.

[rluzinski]

Fine. So with 2AB's left for each team and hindsight aside, what gives you the best chance to keep guys like Pujols, Edmunds, Eckstein, Grd, etc.from scoring again

 

I assume you mean 2 innings and I guess I see it different than you. While I appreciate your sentiments you are ignoring half the equation. What does it matter if Sheets holds the cards hitless for the rest of the game if the Crew doesn't get the chance to score again anyway? When you haven't scored at all yet AND it's getting late AND you are losing, it's time to maximize your scoring opportunity and take your chances with the bullpen, IMO.

 

As usual, Yost didn't lose the game single handedly but he sure helped it along.

[endaround]

Yeah just because Matt Wise has pitched as well as Ben Sheets this year and Turnbow is unhittable why would you go to the bullpen?

[naivin]

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Yeah just because Matt Wise has pitched as well as Ben Sheets this year and Turnbow is unhittable why would you go to the bullpen?

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Please, please, please tell me you are either joking or have been out of the country the past couple weeks. Turnbow is the only truly reliable guy out there and he just blew a save last week.

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/roll.gif

[JeffSackmann]

Again, not a happy win probability chart, but a chart nonetheless...you can find it and the accompanying stats here:

 

www.brewcrewball.com/stor...194141/638

[endaround]

The bullpen is fine. The fact that Turnbow blew on save over a two month period is your reasoning the bullpen is bad shows that you really aren't paying attention.

[wisportswriter]

So you pinch hit for Sheets, tie the game, then the bullpen blows the tie and the Brewers lose. I like that strategy, too. And be honest: Who really likes the Crew's bullpen vs. the Cards with a lead, much less in a tie game?

 

It could have gone either way. The decision was far from stupid. Sheet bunts the runner to second, someone gets a clutch hit to give the Brewers the lead, and Sheets shuts down the Cards and the Brewers win. Why is that so far-fetched?

 

Once more on this site, Yost makes a decision and, instead of holding the players accountable for not getting the RBI hit, Yost is raked over the coals. I've never seen so many fans abuse a manager and at the same time let players get away with murder.

[endaround]

You want to see why Ben hitting for himself was a bad decision? Check the WP graph. Ben's AB basically negated his pitching.

[ja002h]

Why is that so far-fetched?

 

Well, it's just slightly more far-fetched than a fly ball, passed ball/wild pitch, error, slow grounder with a man on 3rd and one out.

[rluzinski]

And be honest: Who really likes the Crew's bullpen vs. the Cards with a lead, much less in a tie game?

 

I like those chances alot more than being behind 1-0 in the 8th, even with Cy Young pitching for me.

[wisportswriter]

rluzinski, c'mon now, that's weak. Do you like those chances better than being ahead 2-1? Still being down 1-0 wasn't the only possible outcome.

[molitor fan]

I made the trek from Apple-ton to see the game, which was a quite discouraging game...

 

I did read the game thread in its entirety, but I do know that there is some dispute as to weather the Sheets decision was a good one....in my mind it was one of the worst decisions I have seen Yost make.....just the feel to the game made it seem like THIS was the Brewers chance.....the crowd literally had the air sucked out of it when Sheets made his way to the plate.....

 

Weeks has an incredible arm by the way....his throw to get Suppan was one of the strongest throws I have ever seen a second baseman make.

[wisportswriter]

Bunting debate aside, the larger issue, in my mind, is that once again the Brewers players lay an egg and the only one who fans beat up is the manager. Folks, the Crew had five hits, three of which were by the same player. Give the Yost-bashing a break. There's more appropriate targets for your venom.

[Ennder]

The way our bullpen has been pitching lately I have 0 problem with Sheets batting in that situation. The way Sheets hits which is almost always a weak ground ball to an infielder, I have absolutely no problem with him bunting.

 

Magruder being on the team, there is no excuse for this, its cost us at least 2-3 games on the year because he is just terrible. We need a real 4th OF.

[DougJones43]

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There's more appropriate targets for your venom

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for the record, i for one don't blame yost for this loss. i didn't agree with the 7th inning decision, but his hands are kind of tied either way you look at it. it certainly isn't his fault that the brewers offense was only in a position to score some runs one time in the whole ballgame. it's got to be tough to manage when you're team hasn't scored diddly in 6 games. you don't have a lot of flexibility.

 

it's tough to single out one player on the offense as the culprit. they just all seem to get hot one week, and then all go cold together the next week. that has led to some frustrating inconsistency.

[PeaveyFury]

Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called it sound strategy.

 

"I was hoping they'd pinch hit for him. But he didn't, and quite frankly, I wouldn't have, either," La Russa said.

[endaround]

Yes we're supposed to believe that Tony "pulls pitcher depending on wind direction" LaRussa is tealling the truth here and not covering for his bud Yost.

[rluzinski]

I don't think that anyone is saying that Yost single handedly lost the game. Zero runs in the 7th against Suppan? COME ON.

[ja002h]

Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called it sound strategy.

 

Now I'm convinced he should've PH Helms.

[naivin]

Regardless of how you feel about the decision, this has to be the funniets comment of this entire discussion...

 

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The bullpen is fine.

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- endaround

[xisxisxis]

Regardless of how you feel about the decision, this has to be the funniets comment of this entire discussion...

 

Quote: The bullpen is fine.

 

On a team with at best 500 talent and a limited budget the bullpen IS fine.

[naivin]

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On a team with at best 500 talent and a limited budget the bullpen IS fine.

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So by your own admission, the bullpen is not very good. The bullpen is fine for a bad team, is that it? If that is the standard, Chris MacGruder is fine.

[rluzinski]

The bullpen is fine for a bad team, is that it?

 

A .500 team is a "bad" team? Isn't it average by definition?

[endaround]

And if the bullpen was used properly it would be great. For example:

 

pitches 1-15: .170&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp .243&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp .277&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp .520

pitches: 16-30: .319&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp .377&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp .681&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1.058

 

Look Santana can't pitch longer than an inning! But this is the same braintrust that throws Magruder out there to bat against righties. They wouldn't send out a lefty to face a lefty reliever so why send out Magruder to face a righty?

[naivin]

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And if the bullpen was used properly it would be great.

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You could find that example on any team in the league. We can properly use the bullpen one of two ways. Leave starters like Davis, Ohka and Santos out there for a couple extra innings whe nthey're getting killed so you don't need to use the bullpen as much. Granted you'll be losing 9-2, but heck, it'll save the bullpen. Or, they could go out and just get a couple extra relieble relievers. That should be easy. I know guys like Obermueller, JDLR, Botallico, Lehr have been bad because they've been misused. Please! The bullpen isn't bad because of misuse, the bullpen is bad because the bulk of the guys out ther can't get hitters out.

 

BTW, if there were more reliable guys in the rotation and in the pen, a guy like Santana wouldn't have to work more than one inning. I'm sure Ned yost would love that, but when your starter doesn't get out of the 4th or 5th inning, he doesn't really have a choice now does he? Please don't try to argue that Ned Yost is the reason for the weak bullpen. Weak pitchers are the reason for the weak bullpen.