8/10/05 - Cardinals (Suppan) @ Brewers (Big Ben) - 1:05 CST

[ReverendBrewmeister]

Heart, lack of heart; strategy, lack thereof......all debateable.

 

Two posters mentioned something that has to be said again, and really can't be debated. Why not hit for Magruder? Not having a CF in the game is problematic. or something very similar to that.

 

Not having a pinch hitter for Magruder was a potential killer. Or more accurately, not having the flexibility on the roster to potentially pinch hit for Magruder was a killer.

 

We've ran our luck carrying 4 outfielders on the 25-man. Clark goes down: Magruder plays. Now he has to hit every time he is up, because there is no one else on the bench who can legitimately play CF.

 

Say what you want about Yost's decision or failure to make one. Not having the true ability to make a choice in that situation preempts anything that Yost could do. And for that, the blame lies squarely on the GM.

 

Hopefully, this situation will be rectified by the next series.

[brettac1]

yost put the game in magruder's hand again.

 

No he didn't, Clark getting hurt did. Who would you recommend play CF?

[Iron Chef Napalm]

Although not as vociferous as some, I am an ardent critic of Nedly J. Thimblebrain. That said, I would have difficulty placing this loss on his shoulders. The only really controversial situation I heard today was letting Sheets hit late in the game with runners at the corners and 1 out. Given how Sheets was dealing and how bad the pen has been in this series, it was a somewhat palatable decision.

 

I must have lulled by mediocrity into mid-season numbness, because I feel a strange sense of serenity and anticipation instead of submitting to the apoplectic nature of my rational mind.

 

I really hope they crush the Reds and I want to see Hart or Cruz instead of Terrance Trent Aussie on the roster.

[DougJones43]

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No he didn't, Clark getting hurt did. Who would you recommend play CF?

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i was referring to him bunting with sheets and leaving it up to magruder with 2 outs to drive in that run. by not pinch hitting for sheets with 1 out, you're once again putting the game in magruder's hands, INTENTIONALLY. i really don't understand how you don't see that

[Ralph Wiggum]

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i was referring to him bunting with sheets and leaving it up to magruder with 2 outs to drive in that run.

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Magruder is expected to be a major league player. It is NOT Ned's fault he is on this team. All of you blame Ned, or Ben....I blame Chris Magruder. It was his job to hit in the clutch, and he didn't. Yes, nobody else did, either, but that isn't the point. Magruder is on this team because he is supposed to be able to hit the ball. He didn't. He failed.

[brettac1]

Gotcha. But he would have been putting the game in Clark's hands as well, which I wouldn't feel that confident with. Chances are he hacks at the first pitch and makes an out anyway. I can't stand Yost, but I can't blame him today for keeping Sheets in. Maybe I wouldn't have bunted, but I would have left him in.

[DougJones43]

magruder was put in a position where he needed to get a basehit with 2 outs. had we pinch hit for sheets, we would have had 2 chances to drive in that run, one of the chances would have only taken a fly ball. even if it was clark in there, i would have still disagreed with the decision because you're banking on a 2-out basehit, but knowing magruder was next made it an even worse call. it's a lot easier to drive that run in with 1 out than with 2 outs.

[Ralph Wiggum]

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i really don't understand how you don't see that

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DougJones43, your "hindsight is 20-20" method of posting is getting quite old. What happens if Branyan pinch hits for Ben and hits into a double play? Julio Santana or a suddenly-sucky Matt Wise come in, with all the Cards good players lurking on the bench.

 

A good bunt by Ben should have scored Hall from 3rd. If Magruder was a major league hitter, he should have been able to hit in the clutch. They didn't.

[H0FFY]

After next series, can we post shorthand to save typing

 

1=them Reds were hot what did you expect

 

2=dont panic we just need to sweep the Rockies to be ok

 

3=their lineup (even though Griffey pulled a hammy and did not play, and Dunn got lost on the way to the ballpark, and they brought back Jimmy Haynes to face us for the first five innings of each game) is much better than ours

 

4=it was a good move by Ned to have Magruder pinch hit, and it was bad luck he hit a weak roller with bases loaded and nobody out, and it was even more clever for Mags to then quickly change his jersey and come back out as Hall and pinch hit again and it was only bad luck he rolled into a double play

 

5=that was not a bad move by Ned

 

6=that was not a bad move by Ned, because I said so

 

7=that was not a bad move by Ned, the player (Mags) just did not do the job

[DougJones43]

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your "hindsight is 20-20" method of posting is getting quite old

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i don't think saying i like our chances to score a run better with 1 out than with 2 outs qualifies as a hindsight comment. i don't say decisions were bad based on whether or not they work. i want decisions made that give us the best chance to win. perhaps you should learn what that expression means before you use it again.

[clancyphile]

The big problem is that Chris Magruder is the 4th OF because of two things:

 

1. Dave Krynzel can't seem to put it together.

 

2. The Crew didn't think to get anyone better than Magruder over the offseason.

 

Mark A. has to open the checkbook to get the Brewers two things:

 

1. A second #2 pitcher to go between Cappy and Davis next year (replacing Santos) - with a rotation of Sheets, Cappy, [FA], Davis, and Eveland.

 

2. A legit 4th OF (think Randy Winn) who can step in at Clark's level as opposed to Magruder.

 

If others are able to step up, great. But those two are glaring weaknesses that must be addressed.

[Ralph Wiggum]

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6=that was not a bad move by Ned, because I said so

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How about the old "Ned Yost is such an idiot. Everybody can see you don't do that!" option?

 

If you are going to rip, rip unilaterally please.

[NeedMoreFans]

I think this game really showed our lack of depth on the bench. I don't like only having one player to come off the bench and play the outfield. I understand it's near impossible to take out Jenkins or Lee just because of their bats, but there is only one person to play 3 different outfield positions, should one of the 3 normal starters sit or get hurt.

 

Today, Clark getting hurt left no one on the bench to come in an play, either as a PH or as a defensive replacement.

 

As a side, what's going to happen when/if Cirillo comes back?

[Ralph Wiggum]

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i don't think saying i like our chances to score a run better with 1 out than with 2 outs qualifies as a hindsight comment.

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But ripping a manager for leaving his dominating starting pitcher (who is also a good bunter) in the game when our bullpen has been horrible does.

[brettac1]

2. The Crew didn't think to get anyone better than Magruder over the offseason.

 

They could just as easily get someone now, from somebody else for cash like they got Branyan last year. I said this for quite a while before, but why not Ben Grieve - the guy can hit and get on base. Those things are foreign to Magruder. They could easily get someone comparable for a few grand, yet they don't.

[H0FFY]

Today, Clark getting hurt left no one on the bench to come in an play, either as a PH

 

I knew not having Mags around to pinch hit was going to hurt us.

 

Actually, seriously, if Mags had been available on the bench, do you think Yostie would have given him the call for Ben with 1 out and runners at the corners.

[RyDogg66]

Hindsight n. - Perception of the significance and nature of events after they have occurred.

 

I don't think saying that lettig Sheets hit BEFORE Hardy was walked qualifies as hindsight.

[ReverendBrewmeister]

We need Chris Magruder, Ben Grieve, and Alex Sanchez for the bench. Gives posters a selection of targets. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[brewmann04]

When has this team hit in the Clutch this season.

 

Thats why we are 3 games under 500 instead of leading the wild card race

[DougJones43]

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But ripping a manager for leaving his dominating starting pitcher (who is also a good bunter) in the game when our bullpen has been horrible does.

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sorry. that wouldn't qualify either. please read the definition rydogg posted. for it to be hindsight, i would have to have said it was a bad decision solely because it didn't work. i think it was a bad decision because it didn't give us our best opportunity to score in that inning, which would have tied the game. if we had pinch hit for sheets, and still ended up with no runs, i would have said it was the right decision even though it didn't work. i base my comments on what gives us the best chance, not what worked and what didn't.

[BrewCityUnit]

Ralph, your killing me. How can you defend Yost there. That move was downright wrong. I think even Sheets would have rather had someone pinch hit for him so he didn't get the loss.

[NeedMoreFans]

With runners at 1st and 3rd with one out and down by 1, what do you need? A run or to move that runner to 2nd? This should be a no-brainer to anyone on this board. What gives us a better chance at a run, a fly ball or a bunt? I'm not sure I would have kept Sheets in the game at that point or not, but I severly question the bunt. Sheets CAN hit that ball out of the infield, it has been done before. Yeah, he's a horrible hitting pitcher and the chances of him grounding into a double play are pretty high...but...WHY BUNT?????????????????? (anyone hitting in that situation, Branyan, Helms, anyone, can just as easily hit into a double play)

 

We needed one run there, not two. Why try to score 2 runs with a base hit with 2 outs and not one run with a possible fly ball out?

[naivin]

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Ralph, your killing me. How can you defend Yost there. That move was downright wrong. I think even Sheets would have rather had someone pinch hit for him so he didn't get the loss.

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Right or wrong, it was not downright anything. Close call maybe. I believe it was the right move for one reason -- our bullpen sucks. Whether the outcome of that inning is a one run defecit, tie score or one run lead, who would you rather have in there to have to face the likes of Eckstien, Edmonds, Pujols, Grud, etc.? Ned was obviously far more comfortable having sheets try to keep the Cards off the scoreboard, than he was going to the bullpen. Seeing what that bullpen has done of late, how anyone can argue otherwise is beyond me.

 

That situation should be viewed as an indictment of the bullpen, and Doug Mevin who put it together, far more than it should nbe an indictment of Ned Yost who justifiably had little confidence in the bullpen in that situation (nor did I) and pushed the button he did.

[rluzinski]

Magruder is on this team because he is supposed to be able to hit the ball. He didn't. He failed.

 

With your rationale, it makes no difference WHO a manager puts in there to get the job done since they are all "supposed to be able to hit the ball"? Even the best batters fail most of the time, afterall. I just can't see your logic.

 

It would be absolutely unfair to put the whole lose on Ned's shoulders. All I can say is a disagreed with Yost's move before he did it and I still do. I'll trade Sheets for 2 innings for an AB by Helms in a crucial situation. This wasn't the 5th inning people.

[NeedMoreFans]

If the game had been tied or the Brewers ahead at that point, I would have done what they did...keep Ben in and sac bunt.

 

But when you're down by a run and there is a runner on 3rd with 1 out, what is the best thing to do in that situation? Bunt? The runner at 1st wasn't the runner they needed to move to the next base. Yeah, to win, they needed him to score, but they needed to tie first.

 

I also don't think you could have PH'd for Magruder right there because there was no one on the bench to play CF for him.