Don Money questions org's approach to pitching

[FVBrewerFan]

Don Money was on WAUK 1570 in ******on yesterday, and had some interesting comments. He was talking with Chris Bosio (now living in ******on) about the Brewers organization's approach to developing pitchers. Both Money and Bosio agreed that young pitchers throw too much and have no recovery time between appearances. Apparently they soft toss every day, plus all the weight training.

 

Both guys went on to explain pitch counts were used back when they played, but they were higher. However, they believed it worked because they would get a couple days off after they pitched and ran a lot instead of throwing.

 

Let me be clear, Money was not saying any of this in a disrespectful way. He was simply offering his opinion and wondering if the trainers and pitching coaches were using the best program to build young pitchers. Money is basically doing what the organization wants him to do, he's sticking with the program.

 

You just have to wonder, with all the young pitchers having arm problems does Money have a point? And is anybody listening?

[Member]

I guess my questions would be:

 

How does Milwaukee's development of pitchers differ from others? I mean, do the majority of clubs have similar routines or is Milwaukee in the minority here?

 

We know all about Milwaukee's history of young pitchers getting hurt, but how does this compare to other organizations?

 

It appears that the younger arms (HS and guys with only a year of college like Parra) are experiencing more arm troubles than college guys. Does this mean simply they are more suseptable to problems regardless of their regiment, or they aren't being handled properly?

 

Regardless of whether he's right or wrong, it's good to see some of the guys in charge of developing these players are thinking long term instead of just about tomorrow.

[batman]

You just have to wonder, with all the young pitchers having arm problems does Money have a point? And is anybody listening?

 

It's an interesting perspective. Chris Bosio was a very good pitcher despite being quite portly. He was built like Bartolo Colon, though, with a strong lower body and big legs (kinda like Clemens, I guess, only fat).

 

I'm looking forward to reading Will Carroll's new book about pitchers' health... I'm sure it will have a lot of info about stuff like this.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

~Bill

 

PS: Is Bosio still coaching somewhere?

[FVBrewerFan]

It's fascinating to me in this age of advanced medicine and technology that developing and maintaining pitchers arms is still more voodoo than science. Some program becomes popular and everyone mimics it. Seems to be more junk science than proven results.

 

I think the Brewers have adopted what most other teams are doing concerning pitch counts per appearance and per season. It's all the extra throwing during the week that is an unknown I guess.

[Member]

Apparently they soft toss every day, plus all the weight training.

 

I went back and looked thru the Sarfate interview, and it looks like his routine was:

 

- Start

- Day 1: No throwing, 30 minutes of running plus leg work

- Day 2: Bullpen session, running poles, upper body work

- Day 3: Long toss, core work (?), 10-15 minutes of running, abs

- Day 4: Fifteen light sprints and 5 minutes of throwing

- Start

 

I don't know how much this may have changed since last year, nor do I know how much of this routine was tailored to Sarfate and how much could be applied to other pitchers. Nor do I know how long he threw in the pen on day 2, or what he considers his core work on day 3. But there it is anyways.

[kanyeJ]

my question is,

 

Why doesnt Money do something about it? He is the coach at Beloit.

 

And when he says orgranization, does that mean Melvin is the one designing the training programs?

 

blazing, your the almighty, you should have the answers.

[thevaccinator27]

Can you drop it already?

[kanyeJ]

Can you drop it already?

 

------------

 

drop what?

[taylor07]

I believe on day 2 you are looking at a 40-45 pitches on the bullpen session. My comment on what I have seen and heard is a lot of the pitchers are not ready to go when they get to camp. You have to come to spring training in shape and I think a lot are hurting and not saying anything.

[batman]

Thanks for sharing that Chris, I had forgotten about that tidbit of the Sarfate interview. It would be interesting to see Chris Bosio's reaction to that program... I would guess his between-game routine was just running and shagging balls in the outfield, especially the first two days after a start.

 

He'd actually be a great person to interview for the site. Former Brewer, successful pitching coach, and apparently still a WI resident. Worth looking into, at least.

 

~Bill

[kanyeJ]

i have another question, and Im being serious here.

 

 

Im wondering what the percentage of high school pitchers is that throw curves and sliders and especially spiltters when they are growing up and when do they start with these pitches.

 

I grew up a pitcher and started throwing curves and splitters by the time I was 13 and now can barely lift a baseball let alone throw one as a result.

 

I have this feeling that kids these days are starting to throw these pitches at maybe too young of an age and when they start getting a bit older, like around 20, its coming back to hurt them.

[FVBrewerFan]

Chris, Sarfate then basically backs up wat Money was saying. Only one day off, the rest of the days they're throwing. So it begs the question...are these young pitchers able to recover? Especially when you consider it's an awefully long season in Beloit compared to what they're used to doing.

 

As far as throwing curves, I don't think they ever thought about it years ago and plenty of guys threw curves at an early age. Simply was never an issue. Now we know more, and there is some evidence throwing curves at a young age can have damaging effects. BUT many believe that's due to improper mechanics, not throwing a curve ball in and of itself. Parents and coaches (even good ones) are convinced they're teaching proper technique for throwing curves when they are not.

 

Someoen asked why Money doesn't do something about it? Because he serves the organization, that's why. It is the parent team's pitching program and he can't unilaterally change things.

[Member]

Im wondering what the percentage of high school pitchers is that throw curves and sliders and especially spiltters when they are growing up and when do they start with these pitches.

 

I grew up a pitcher and started throwing curves and splitters by the time I was 13 and now can barely lift a baseball let alone throw one as a result.

 

I have this feeling that kids these days are starting to throw these pitches at maybe too young of an age and when they start getting a bit older, like around 20, its coming back to hurt them.

 

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your arm. 27 is too young to not be able to throw a ball around.

 

The answer to your question is "probably too many too early", and you're right that it's probably causing all sort of problems down the road for a lot of kids. Given the normal stress an overhand delievery places on the arm, curveballs and slider are just piling on.

 

The problem, is, if you're a 14 year old kid throwing 80 or 85, it's going to take some smart adults and a lot of will power on the part of the kid to NOT want to learn those pitches, as someone with that sort of arm has some serious potential. And we all know that scouts are going to be drawn by a HSer who throws in the 90s with a good curve.

 

Evidence seems to show college age pitchers who've not been injured have a better chance of staying healthy down the road. It would be interesting to find out what sort of pitcher the typical college pitcher was at a younger age to find out why this seems to be true. The why (luck, mostly a fastball pitcher early, better mechanics, etc) may prevent the type of troubles we are seeing from Jones, Neugebauer, etc.

[Member]

Chris, Sarfate then basically backs up wat Money was saying. Only one day off, the rest of the days they're throwing. So it begs the question...are these young pitchers able to recover?

 

Sarfate could probably handle it better than Wilhemsen last year or Jones the year before because he was older and his arm more mature. I suppose that sort of generalization works most of the time, but it's going to fail a player or two.

 

How do you come up with a generalized program for pitchers when two 20 year old pitchers can have completely different arms (so far as there development and maturity)? When you've got 19 year-old HSers on the same team as 24 year-old college players?

[FVBrewerFan]

Quote:

---

How do you come up with a generalized program for pitchers when two 20 year old pitchers can have completely different arms

---

 

Maybe that's the answer- you don't have a generalized program. That could be part of the solution. HS pitchers perhaps should be treated differently than college guys. At least in the first 2-3 years.

[germanking]

I am like J and am 27, but in my babe ruth league (12-15), any pitcher that could throw it by people WOULD NOT be taught how to throw the curve, or at least not allowed to during games for risk of damage to the arm. The body has not even fully developed at age 13, let alone 18, especially for the gifted athletes who get drafted by a team. Kids can have a growth sput of up to 6" in height up til 18 and the consequences of teaching a 12-15 year old could and probably will show dire effects with age. I am also sorry K to hear of your troubles.

 

I believe a kid can be taught the curveball at an early age, but just to start practicing it. An elite athlete will still be able to blow by the average to good HS player with just the fastball and maybe an offspeed pitch, but a curveball used too young will put WAY too much torque on a still developing arm, as I'm sure has happened to hundreds of pitchers the last decade.

[batman]

I think a lot of the "progressive" amateur coaches and moving away from the slider/splitter approach and helping kids teach changeups and cut fastballs. Those pitches put substantially less pressure on the arm, and especially the elbow, while still allowing younger athletes to learn the art of pitching (changing speeds, adding movement, working inside/outside/up/down in the zone, etc.).

 

My youngest brother is in a Junior League (13-14) and I haven't seen a kid with a real breaking ball yet. I know on his team the coach doesn't allow them to throw one, at least not yet, and so some of the kids are playing around with changeups and knuckle balls.

 

Reading that article Rob Neyer penned about Brewers' farmhand Garrett Berger probably mirrors the story of thousands upon thousands of youngsters over the last however-many years. Too much "machismo" and not enough intelligence are the norm in amateur baseball, but hopefully that will change as we learn more about biomechanics and growing arms.

 

$.02,

~Bill

[clancyphile]

I've got a nephew - and while I never had the skill to PLAY baseball, I did seem to do okay on the pitching side (never was good enough to go out for the team.

 

He's about four to six years from Little League, so I am following this (I figure planning ahead would be a good idea) topic with interest.

 

Are there any thoughts on teaching a young pitcher the knuckleball?

 

Also, what surprises me is what is said about the split-finger. My understanding is that it is thrown like a NORMAL fastball, but with the fingers split. I'm surprised that it is supposedly putting more strain on a pitcher's arm.

[Member]

If I were teaching a youngster I'd teach them a change before I'd work on a knuckleball. I think a change is not only a more effective pitch but it is more easily controlled.

 

I think a 10-12 year old who can locate their fastball and throw a decent change is going to have a lot of sucess. Not only that, but I think they a great foundation for sucess as they get older.

[batman]

Split-fingered pitches put a ton of stress on the forearm and elbow. I'm not sure about the biology of it, but if you even just put your left hand on your forearm and your elbow while splitting your fingers around a baseball, you can feel the strain. It's definitely hard on one's arm, especially if you've got small fingers (like when you're a kid, obviously).

 

But yeah.... changeups and variations of the fastball is the way to go.

 

~Bill