Link Report Thurs. 6/8 - Rogers Leads All of MiLB in K / IP

[And That]

I'm glad he isn't doing a lot better, as there'd be talk about rushing the kid...like Yo.

 

That's a really bizarre statement. You'd rather he have a 5.37 ERA than a 1.97 ERA? Does a higher ERA prove that he's "working on things" more? I agree that stats don't mean as much in A-ball as they do in AAA, but to say that you're glad one of our pitching prospects has a high ERA is way out there.

 

And I don't understand the logic behind the thinking that moving Gallardo up to AA would be "rushing him." Unlike Rogers, Gallardo has been dominant from day 1 this year. I don't really know what else he has to prove to the Brewers in A+ - maybe they want him to work on his mechanics (which were very good to begin with) or his slider (which at times is excellent). However, a sub-2.00 ERA after 73 innings pitched, along with equally as-dominant peripherals, scream for a promotion. He'd still be on the same pitch counts... it's not like his arm would explode as soon as he got there. And he'd be facing competition more becoming to his current skill set. How many more times does he need to pitch a 7 innings, while allowing 3 hits, 2 walks, a run or two, while K'ing 9-12? What is Yo really getting out of that?

 

As far as smug goes, naw, the folks that believe in him are just waiting for the process to unfold. The negative bandwagon is much more smug because it's easier to be critical and if you talk enough maybe somebody will listen.

 

I don't think there's any smugness on either side, and I also don't think there's as much disparity in opinions on Rogers as some people think there is. Is there really anyone on the site who doesn't hope Mark will become the next big thing in Milwaukee? I highly doubt it. People want him to succeed - they just have different ideas about how soon this should be happening and the realistic possibility of it actually happening.

 

I think you're getting this "negative bandwagon" confused with people (admittedly, including myself) who have a general distate for hard-throwing right-handed top-round high school-drafted pitchers with occasional control issues and who are in the middle of the time frame when a large chunk of career-ending arm injuries occur. I'm sure you don't need me to trudge out of the litany of past Brewer picks like Rogers who have utterly failed, or to remind you that the list of Brewer-drafted pitchers like Rogers whom have made much, if any, impact on the big league club is exceedingly short.

 

I, for one, am more than willing to see this process through, and I hope Mark overcomes the odds at makes a splash for the Brewers at some point. He has tons of physical ability, and has as legit a shot at making it as any of his hard-throwing predecessors. This recent string of successful outings is reason for hope, and I hope he continues to pitch this well (evidently unlike Al) so that his name will be bandied about with Yo Gallardo's when it comes to talking about guys that need a bigger challange. However, I've seen strings of outings like this before, gotten really excited about them, and then poof, the guy either reverts back to his old ways, gets injured, or both. I've learned my lesson - I'm not going to get overly excited about these last half-dozen outings, and I'll continue to look at the big picture as opposed to the last month. Big picture being what it is for a Rogers-type guy, things are still very uncertain, and more proof will be needed in order to dispel the notions that currently exist about a pitcher of his profile.

[Brian the Automator]

[ As far as smug goes, naw, the folks that believe in him are just waiting for the process to unfold. The negative bandwagon is much more smug because it's easier to be critical and if you talk enough maybe somebody will listen. ]

 

I'm in the "i'm waiting and seeing" camp. There are people who have already written him off, which is way weird in my opinion. To me, his lack of production so far had been very concerning... and i'm sure some of that is the paranoia instilled in us regarding 1st round prep pitchers.

 

I know Rogers has the raw talent... and there's been a couple of outings this year that tell me that he's capable of harnessing it. If he starts stringing some more of those together, it's going to be a very exciting thing.

[Thunnis]

Perhaps then if the track record for years has been limited success with young/high school pitchers then one should look within the "pitching coach" inventory over the years. I'm sure that over time with the right people there should have been some success somewhere along the line. Any place you want to look thruout baseball players in all positions come into their own for different sqauds at different times. In rogers case perhaps it's a good thing they were able to recognize they needed to back off on tweaking and refining and simply let the kid throw the ball with a little more of his style.After all that's what they paid him for.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Perhaps then if the track record for years has been limited success with young/high school pitchers then one should look within the "pitching coach" inventory over the years. ]

 

I'm not sure if it's a function of the pitching coach, or if it's just a general trend that the risk with prep pitchers is just very high for ANY team. I'm not going to say that the Brewers have been handling young pitchers optimally, but I wonder if this jadedness is something every organization feels.

 

I do agree, though, that there have been instances where the organization has tweaked players to the point where they get away from what made them successful (Hendrickson)... and there have been instances where I don't think they tweaked pitchers enough (Kyle Peterson).

 

Whatever the case may be, we're all excited that Rogers is now flashing his brilliance where WE can see it (the box scores), since we're not fortunate enough to sit in the stands for his starts.

[Thunnis]

That's correct, as the majority the view these kind of sites assume the lines and box scores are the manner in which pitchers should be evaluated. Really nothing could be further from the truth in a lot of cases. There are pitchers all over that are simply doing what is currently being asked of them. With some it will work, with others I believe it is the pitching coach that needs to be able to recognize what needs to be done even if it means he himself needs to back up.

I don't think that any type of coach at the lower level is any different than a minor league umpire....none of them most likely want to stay there for ever. The coach perhaps would like to develop talent and get some credit or recognition for it. The minor league umpire aspires to call his version of a ball game. Either way the players that in the end will continue to move up must find a way to survive the pitfalls of both. I don't know the number of players thru the minors but we all know that the largest percentage will not go all the way.

Having said that since most of us are not at the games and read these things at night to stay in touch unless a person knows a player or situation it's just another ball game. Things truly are not as they seem at times and watching this thing has been an education.

[Never Outhustled]

Perhaps then if the track record for years has been limited success with young/high school pitchers then one should look within the "pitching coach" inventory over the years.

 

I don't see how the pitching coaches are relevent when comparing Rogers to our past failures considering the pitching coaches have changed. As for the adjustments, they've been a big success. It was the pitching coaches who tweaked Rogers breaking ball and transformed it from a slightly below average pitch to what now ranks as an absolutly dominant pitch. I'm sure its frusterating for Rogers to have to go through changes to his delivery, but he needs to ask himself if he wants to be John Smoltz or Kerry Wood. Wood had poor mechanics like Rogers, and was too stubborn to adjust. His stubberness got him to the Majors faster, and its ruining his career about 10 years too soon.

[Thunnis]

That's where I believe the problem lies. A pitcher that has the ability to dominate fall and spring ball with no problems, for example coming off a spring where Rogers threw around 41 innings and giving up one earned run? He shows up and does what is asked of him and suddenly can't find a strike zone? That's not going to happen for any pitcher without a reason for it. Tweaking his breaking ball from a below average pitch to what it currently is, not hardly. I don't think that if all a person is allowed to throw is a specific number of fastballs and change ups with a pitch count it takes to long at this level for hitters to sit on a fastball and foul off pitches until a ball is thrown or a pitchcount used up. Looking back at the number of batters with 2 strikes that ended up with a bleeder or a walk because he couldn't use a curveball isn't tweaking by a pitching coach.

[Never Outhustled]

Tweaking his breaking ball from a below average pitch to what it currently is, not hardly.

 

Not disagreeing with you, just unclear of your stance. Are you saying that his slurve wasn't below average and the scouts were simply wrong in that opinion, that his slider is not now a dominant pitch, or that the Brewers did nothing to tweak it?

 

I don't think that if all a person is allowed to throw is a specific number of fastballs and change ups with a pitch count it takes to long at this level for hitters to sit on a fastball and foul off pitches until a ball is thrown or a pitchcount used up. Looking back at the number of batters with 2 strikes that ended up with a bleeder or a walk because he couldn't use a curveball isn't tweaking by a pitching coach.

 

Because he's forced to not use his slider in an effort to improve his changeup the Brewers have wronged Mark Rogers? You do realize other well respected organizations, like Oakland, Minnesota, and Boston develop pitchers using that same technique right? Your almost suggesting Rogers came out of HS big league ready. If thats the case, every scout I've seen comment on Rogers largely disagrees with you. I mean that with no malice what so ever, because I'm a huge supporter of Rogers, and have stated repeatedly that he's a fantastic prospect.

[Thunnis]

Nope , not at all . I'm simply implying that it must have been a struggle to be told that you will throw ...35 fastballs and 10 changeups for your outing.....period.....no matter what the count. 0-2,1-2,whatever. They all want to pitch to win. I believe that what we will see for at least the balance of the season is a kid with no handcuffs. not to say that anyone can't still get clobbered because they all will at different times but I'm betting it'll be more fun to watch.

Yes I think his slider is a dominant pitch in addition to his curve that was off limits.They will both compliment his fastball and changeup. Personnally I think during the regular season his progress was slowed by outside influence. Not all negative because progress has been made but not perhaps what it might have been with all parties recognizing and working towards a common goal at this level.

[Never Outhustled]

Nope , not at all . I'm simply implying that it must have been a struggle to be told that you will throw ...35 fastballs and 10 changeups for your outing.....period.....no matter what the count. 0-2,1-2,whatever.

 

I agree, and I'm sure the hardest part was having to constant read that he was "struggling". This is why I constantly defended him. His path to stardom is different than most think it should be, but its almost identical to numerous players that have actually achieved stardom. The development of a pitchers total game is much more important for a player capable of a 20 year career than short term success at A ball.

[JoeHova]

I've not been in either camp on Rogers, I always thought that since the Brewers have him for awhile, there is no need for panic. I agree with Al that it's better to have a guy with Rogers's stuff than a guy with a 2 ERA but an 85 mph fastball. However, my point was that it was natural to be pessimistic about a guy with a 6+ ERA and no control, especially after Gold and Jones and Neugebauer all ruined their arms. A guy like Neugebauer is pretty much a clone of Rogers, and Nick had much more success (ERA wise and k/9 wise) in A ball. Jones and Gold didn't really fit that profile but still were first round RHPs out of HS who ruined their arms. Was it Albert Einstein who that said that the definition if insanity is to keep trying the same thing but expecting different results (which fits Yost batting Jenkins against LHPs very well, btw)? I don't think drafting HS pitchers quite rises to that level, but I can see why some people would.