Pirates Fans to Stage In-game Walkout

[DougJones43]

It's a shame fans that do not understand the success cycle

 

The normal "success cycle" isn't supposed to include 15 straight losing seasons.

 

 

think their problems will be solved by throwing money at a few mediocre FA's

 

I don't think that's what most people would want. They could certainly spend more than $38M. And who said they have to go after mediocre FA's? They haven't even made an effort to keep their own guys. Somebody earlier in this thread gave the laundry list of their own homegrown guys they've gotten rid of during fire sales. A $38M payroll is pathetic, even for a "small" market team.

 

 

Support your team and shut up. If you want to prove your a bandwagoneer, support this foolishness.

 

That's absurd. Those fans have supported the team, and have spent money for the team and the stadium based on promises that the Pirates would, in turn, spend the money necessary to be competetive.

[burniebrewer]

I've got it on now in the bottom of the 3rd. We'll see if there's any activity.

[burniebrewer]

The announcers are commenting now and they've been showing the stadium...the announcers said some people walked out, but not enough to really notice.

 

Then again, there aren't many people there to begin with. I can't believe they didn't come out in droves for Bob Walk bobblehead night.

[TheCrew07]

It's absurd to post that an opinion is absurd...

 

So like they should spend on money on free agents like Milwaukee has to build back into success? Cause this team is loaded with free agents? Ohh maybe you mean like the Twins and A's have built their teams from free agency? Wait the D backs built their team with FAs... err, it just looks like the large market east and west coast teams spend the majority of the money, with the Cubs and Cards..

 

If you want to build a competitive franchise without deep pockets, you have to develope from within. They've had decent players come through their system, they just haven't had enough at one time to make a run like the Brewers. Not to mention some seriously poor trades along the way, at least in my opinion.

 

Spending money is the mantra of the casual fan, I hear it all the time from people in Green Bay who think that Suppan is the reason the Brewers are 14 games over 500... the Brewers finally spent money, so now they are winning... it's laughable if you really think about it. Health, experience, and a growing maturity are the reasons why the Brewers are playing well. Suppan has been a welcome addition, but he's not the sole reason the Crew is winning.

[pebadger]

I don't think you'll know. As noted above, the media outlets have been instructed not to televise any walkout activity, no matter how minor.

[DougJones43]

I've got it on now in the bottom of the 3rd. We'll see if there's any activity.

 

Well, allegedly the television stations have been instructed to pretend nothing is happening, so even if the walkout does occur you probably won't be able to notice on TV.

 

In my mind, the actual walkout doesn't really matter anymore. The Pirates organization has already had attention drawn to the matter, and the front office had to answer questions to SI about it. The damage has already been done with the negative attention this whole thing has caused. I enjoy seeing this kind of accountability take place.

 

With the Brewers, a change needed to take place at the top before the penny pinching stopped. Some public pressure (and an embarassing audit of the team's finances) needed to be applied before this finally happened. Maybe some of the people of Pittsburgh can contribute to forcing change in their own city with their own team.

[dadofandrew]

15 straight losing seasons make no difference at all...they are where they are. They might need to tear it all down and start over, who knows.

[DougJones43]

It's absurd to post that an opinion is absurd...

 

"Support your team and shut up" isn't an opinion.

 

 

Not to mention some seriously poor trades along the way, at least in my opinion.

 

Many of those trades were made for financial reasons.

 

 

the Brewers finally spent money, so now they are winning... it's laughable if you really think about it.

 

Really? Is it laughable to think this team wouldn't be as good without Ben Sheets, Geoff Jenkins, Jeff Suppan, Derrick Turnbow, and Francisco Cordero? Because if we spent money the way the Pirates currently do, none of those guys would probably be on the team right now.

 

 

So like they should spend on money on free agents like Milwaukee has to build back into success?

 

Did you even read my post? I never said they should go out and sign a bunch of overpriced free agents. But they'd be a much better team if they would have at least attempted to keep some of their more talented players around. You're making a huge jump from "they need to spend more than $38M per year to be competetive" to "they should spend tons of money on free agents!" Obviously, developing young talent is the cornerstone to building a good franchise, but you still need to spend some money along the way as well.

[brettac1]

I think Littlefield is a decent GM, actually. He's been doing some smart things. I loved the trade for LaRoche, but he hasn't hit much outside of a couple week stretch. If he would have turned out, and I still expect him to, they would be somewhat better. He's also good at signing decent veterans to one year deals and trading them at the deadline, which is a smart thing for a team in their position to do. He still has had some head-scratchers (Jack Wilson extension, to name one), but I think he can turn that into a semi-decent team.

 

They've also had some bad luck with prospects to this point, some of the pitching prospects that looked like they would really move the team up have had difficulties.

[snyttri]

The Pirates were the eighth most profitable team in MLB last year according to Forbes. It looks like they're not making a good faith effort to use revenue sharing and the new stadium to improve the team. I think it would be foolish for fans not to speak up.

 

www.forbes.com/lists/2006...ome_1.html

 

Here's an article on the protest from The Biz of Baseball

 

"Pirates Fans Protest Tonight Created By Ownership"

[TheCrew07]

Well since you're into breaking out posts here we go...

 

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"Support your team and shut up" isn't an opinion.

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Really? Wasn't the original line "It's a shame fans that do not understand the success cycle and think their problems will be solved by throwing money at a few mediocre FA's...haven't the Orioles proven this does not work? Support your team and shut up. If you want to prove your a bandwagoneer, support this foolishness". Taking one snipit out of the context of the post hardly does it justice.

 

While that's not exactly the way I would have put it, I feel like telling people on this site who continually post the same rants about the same things to just shut up and support the team. What rights do we really have as fans? Were it is written that we have the right to demand this, or assume that? We're a free society for sure, but if you support something that fails, I'd say you made a bad investment. We have the right to buy a ticket and sit in the stands, other than than, we have no say, nor should we.

 

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Many of those trades were made for financial reasons.

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What does that have to do with them being very poor trades in my opinion? In my opinion the Pirates have been run very Sal Bandolike for sometime now, and I'm thankful every day for Doug Melvin.

 

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Really? Is it laughable to think this team wouldn't be as good without Ben Sheets, Geoff Jenkins, Jeff Suppan, Derrick Turnbow, and Francisco Cordero? Because if we spent money the way the Pirates currently do, none of those guys would probably be on the team right now.

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Yep, because Sheets and Jenkins didn't come through the system, and weren't signed before this year? Turnbow was picked up off the scrap heap, and Cordero was aquired via trade and is relatively in expensive, he doesn't become a free agent until next season. Furthermore, Tbow and Coco are about as cheap as backend bullpen guys come, I really don't see how you supported your arguement well at all. The Pirates traded away all of their home grown stars for what has amounted to peanuts in the long run. What about the up roar when Sexson was traded and they resigned the cheaper Jenkins?

 

 

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Did you even read my post? I never said they should go out and sign a bunch of overpriced free agents. But they'd be a much better team if they would have at least attempted to keep some of their more talented players around. You're making a huge jump from "they need to spend more than $38M per year to be competetive" to "they should spend tons of money on free agents!" Obviously, developing young talent is the cornerstone to building a good franchise, but you still need to spend some money along the way as well.

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Of course not! Obviously because I disagree with you and your faultless logic I didn't read your entire post. I'm not making any jumps, people around here weren't very happy with the payroll a couple of years ago either. Melvin cut away all the fat and started over, if the Pirates bottom out this year, and have similar success in the future what's the problem? Who's to say that if they spent money they would have had anymore success? After all Jeffery Hammonds made the Brewers a contender! It's not spending money, it's how you spend it. Ramirez wasn't exactly mr popular when he was with the Pirates, so while that deal looks really bad right now, I don't recall a huge amount of criticism of it at the time. The Pirates will not win until they build a farm system like the Brewers have, that's the key to success.

[snyttri]

Spending money is the mantra of the casual fan, I hear it all the time from people in Green Bay who think that Suppan is the reason the Brewers are 14 games over 500...

 

Defending a minimum payroll from a team with revenue sharing and a new stadium is something you hear all the time from gullible fans. Some of the "bad trades" you are referring to are really just giving away young stars like Aramis Ramirez because the Pirates owners wanted to pocket the revenue sharing instead of win games. It is no coincidence that the Brewers are winning with a mid-level payroll. With the Pittsburgh model Sheets and Jenkins would not be on the team.

[DougJones43]

Taking one snipit out of the context of the post hardly does it justice.

 

Yeah, but that one snipit was what I quoted, and chose to point out as absurd. Am I not allowed to think only a certain part of a post is absurd?

 

 

What rights do we really have as fans?

 

When the fans are also the taxpayers, and promises are made to secure financing from taxpayers, I think those people have a lot of rights.

 

 

Yep, because Sheets and Jenkins didn't come through the system, and weren't signed before this year? Turnbow was picked up off the scrap heap, and Cordero was aquired via trade and is relatively in expensive

 

I don't see how it makes any difference how they were acquired, or when they signed their contract. The point is we were willing to spend the money and we are paying them right now. We're also paying Bill Hall more than we have to right now in order to buy out a year of his free agency. Spending money helps, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

 

By the way, "inexpensive" Francisco Cordero is the 4th highest paid Brewer on the active roster, and would be the highest paid player on the Pirates.

 

 

After all Jeffery Hammonds made the Brewers a contender!

 

One example from 2001 obviously proves that spending money is worthless!

 

 

Well since you're into breaking out posts

 

I don't have any idea what you're getting at with this, but whatever...

[burniebrewer]

Well, allegedly the television stations have been instructed to pretend nothing is happening, so even if the walkout does occur you probably won't be able to notice on TV.

 

I figured it would go something like that, but coming back in the 4th inning, they had a few different seating area shots and actually commented on the walkout and said they really didn't notice many people leaving.

 

I just read a small write-up on Yahoo Sports and they are saying about 100 people were seen leaving the stadium after the 3rd inning.

[brettac1]

about 100 people were seen leaving the stadium after the 3rd inning.

 

That'll show 'em. Way to stick it to the man.

[burniebrewer]

Here's the Yahoo Sports story:

 

sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news...&type=lgns

[bacon06]

Inspired by this story, I propose something like this for the Brewers. But, instead of walking out, I say that we fill the stadium. Wait, that already happens. Carry on.

[TheCrew07]

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When the fans are also the taxpayers, and promises are made to secure financing from taxpayers, I think those people have a lot of rights.

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You had the right to vote no as a tax payer, once the decision was made, you had no more rights, that's democracy. The stadium district represents you, the elected officials represent you, you have no power or leverage with any sports franchise. You either choose to support them, or you don't. I don't want to get into a sidebar arguement about entitlement, but fans aren't entitled to anything more than a GM's best effort. How you spend your money and time is entirely up to you.

 

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By the way, "inexpensive" Francisco Cordero is the 4th highest paid Brewer on the active roster, and would be the highest paid player on the Pirates.

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Would the Brewers have kept him 3 years ago? Will they resign him to a much larger contract this off season? It seems to me they sold high with Kolb, Sexson, Pods, and Lee. Furthermore, the Sexson trade was brilliant, and continues to pay benefits for the current MLB team. What trade the Pirates made has come close to the same level of production? The only difference between what the Pirates have done and what the Brewers have done is the Brewers selectively chose to keep 2 of their players, which last year looked like a pretty bad way to spend their money. How easy it is to forget when Jenkins was slumping horribly and Sheets was on the DL... The Pirates have had some bad luck, but if they aren't going to contend, what sense does it make to be buyers? Again, look at the Brewers 3 years ago, even 4 and 5 years ago, they were always sellers. To me, the Pirates are exactly where the Brewers were in 2001, 2002... that's why I bring up Brewer examples from the past.

 

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One example from 2001 obviously proves that spending money is worthless!

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Nope it doesn't, but spending money doesn't automatically make you a winner, spending it wisely does. What have the Yankees won recently? The Redskins? The Cubs? Al already pointed out Baltimore, how many more examples do you want? We can go player by player if you like, but spending money doesn't mean anything in itself. The Pirates have had some bad luck mixed with some not so hot trades, that's the big difference. The Brewers were horribly unlucky last year with the injuries, and look where they ended up.

 

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I don't have any idea what you're getting at with this, but whatever...

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Well since I have to spell it out for you... You take small sentence fragments and break them out in a quote, usually out of context. Instead of cherry picking, why not quote the entire paragraph or message that you are responding to so people can make their own judgements without having to go backup and reread what was previously posted.

 

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Yeah, but that one snipit was what I quoted, and chose to point out as absurd. Am I not allowed to think only a certain part of a post is absurd?

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Exactly my point. It's one to thing to think it and another to post it. I find cherry picking fragments to be an absurd way to prove one's point. Or is it just that you don't like your own post being called absurd?

 

I don't disagree that there comes a time when you will need to spend money to win. However, if you aren't ever in contention, what good does spending that money do? Create more debt to the franchise? What if the Pirates spend the money, still lose, and no fans come out to the ballpark? The debt that's incurred to run the franchise is a healthy thing?

 

Call the Pirates fiscally irresponsible to the fan base if you want, I choose to see it a different way.

[Beast Light]

It thought it was hilarious on Baseball Tonight when they were talking about the two sources very different accounts as to how many people actually walked out.

 

One source (may have been Yahoo, because someone already mentioned it) stated that about 100 people walked out, while some local newsource reported that about 7,000 people walked out.

 

"Then, during the third inning, somewhere between 100 and 7,000 fans left their seats in a protest..."

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[DougJones43]

You had the right to vote no as a tax payer, once the decision was made, you had no more rights

 

I disagree. If public money was given to an organization under the pre-tense that the organization would spend the money and handle their business in a certain way, then it should be within your rights as a taxpayer that the organization does what they promised to with the money. Maybe it's more of an ethical right than a legal one, but it still exists IMO.

 

The whole point of funding the stadium was to increase revenue, and in turn use that extra money to try and make the team better (which is a positive for the city and the state). The Pirates haven't followed through on their end of the bargain, and I think that's a very poor display of ethical behavior and it violates the public's trust.

 

 

Would the Brewers have kept him 3 years ago?

 

Just because the Brewers are good now, doesn't make the pre-Attanasio Brewers a good business model to follow.

 

 

What trade the Pirates made has come close to the same level of production?

 

None, but that might partially be the fault of a lack of spending. You're not going to be able to get a very good return when other teams KNOW for a fact you're not going to pay the player to stay. Look at the Aramis Ramirez deal. The Pirates had to trade Kenny Lofton and Aramis Ramirez, and in return they were only able to get Jose freaking Hernandez. Now, you blame the GM for that, and paint him as imcompetent. I think the GM was handcuffed by the ownerships lack of financial commitment, and he was forced to trade Ramirez for garbage because garbage was all he could get in return.

 

 

Again, look at the Brewers 3 years ago, even 4 and 5 years ago, they were always sellers. To me, the Pirates are exactly where the Brewers were in 2001, 2002...

 

Technically, the Pirates are in a significantly larger market, so they should have an edge over the Brewers in revenue. And again, just because an inordinate amount of Jack Z's picks have turned out great, and we are finally showing signs of success in 2007, that doesn't mean that the 2001-2002 Brewers were a well-run franchise. In fact, I'd say they were a disaster. Nobody should aim to be 5-7 years away from being competetive.

 

 

Nope it doesn't, but spending money doesn't automatically make you a winner, spending it wisely does.

 

Did I say somewhere that the Pirates should start unwisely spending money? I've tried to be as clear as possible in stating that's not what I think. You can spend a lot more than $38M in a year, without necessarily "wasting" it.

 

 

Well since I have to spell it out for you... You take small sentence fragments and break them out in a quote, usually out of context. Instead of cherry picking, why not quote the entire paragraph or message that you are responding to

 

I'm sorry you feel that what I'm doing is cherry picking. I usually try to pick out one entire idea at a time, and then respond to them one by one. I'm not sure how else to do it, short of quoting entire messages, which I don't think the moderators like very much.

 

 

I don't disagree that there comes a time when you will need to spend money to win. However, if you aren't ever in contention, what good does spending that money do?

 

You have to start somewhere. What if, in 2005, the Brewers decided that since they weren't in contention that it wasn't worth it to sign Ben Sheets to a $38.5M deal? What if, instead of taking on Cordero's salary last year, we decided that since we were out of contention, we should just dump Lee's salary and not pay to acquire any major league talent in return? What if, after 2005, we decided not to give Turnbow a $6.5M deal, because we weren't in contention right then? Letting all of those guys go just to save some money would have really hurt us right now.

 

Spending money now can help improve a team now, and in the longterm. Just because some teams spend money foolishly, doesn't mean it's always the wrong thing to do.

[Cooper]

Remember when folks were afraid of the Pirates early on this season? That seems silly now.

 

I'm not saying they won't be better in the future... It seems like their rebuilding plan encounters a lot more setbacks than Milwaukee's plan did. A lot of their 'cornerstones' didn't work according to plan.

 

Then again, I'm okay with this. While I don't like to see losing, I understand that somebody has to lose. They're in our division, and it's nice to see ownership taking their team out of the equation for the Brewers through their decision making.

[DougJones43]

It seems like their rebuilding plan encounters a lot more setbacks than Milwaukee's plan did. A lot of their 'cornerstones' didn't work according to plan.

 

Aramis Ramirez is somebody that could have been a cornerstone of their offense. Instead, they chose to trade him at the ripe old age of 25, because he was having a down year and they didn't want to pay him the $6M they owed him the following year. That's not a setback, that's just being cheap and stupid.

 

I'll admit that they've had some issues with prospects not panning out, but probably not any more or less than other teams. Their inability to find a way to work around that is nobody's fault but their own.

 

Like you said though, their craptitude is beneficial for the Brewers, so I'm okay with it. If I was a Pirates fan, or a resident of Pittsburgh, I'd be pretty unhappy and not very sympathetic to their excuses.

[Invader3K]

The fans have every right to speak up, especially given the new stadium, and the Pirates' earlier promises of fielding a competitive team. The idea that fans should just "shut up because they don't make the decisions" (to paraphrase) is really idiotic. People have the right to want a competitive team. The fans don't have many options, so organizing a walk out or something might be their only way of getting a message across to ownership.

[TheCrew07]

People have the "right" to spend their money how they want and that's about it. "The promise" of a competitive team... ha.. how many times did we hear that in Milwaukee? Again, fans in this state were saying all the same things not so long ago... like this winter... A fan isn't "entitled" to anything more than buying a ticket for the game. If they really wanted to make a statement, don't buy the ticket in the first place. Again, when public money is used, your representatives have a say, they speak for you. Once it's done, it's over. You can speak to the owner, you can speak to the GM, but you have no rights or powers beyond offering your opinion to the people that actually can make decisions. I don't recall anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, or Bill of Rights where it garunteed the right to a winning sports franchise.

 

If you believe just because ownership promises a competitive team, you should have one, as if it's that easy. Everyone wants to be competitive, but not everyone is going to be.

 

I'm really looking forward to all the "Brewers don't care about winning" comments when they won't be able to afford some of their young stars in the near future. Just because the market is larger doesn't in itself mean the team should be successfull. They aren't the only baseball team state, they aren't even the only team in the NL from the state. Milwaukee has 2 teams in major sports, and the Bucks aren't exactly a huge draw, the NFL team is in GB, and it still gets more pub than the Crew. The Steelers dwarf the Pirates in relative popularity, and are located in the same city. I see the Pirates in a very similar situation as the Penguins were in earlier this decade.

 

I'm pretty tired of this sense of entitlement that people carry around with them.

[Invader3K]

Well, if you buy a ticket, you're entitled to use it how you want (within reason, and assuming you're not scalping it). If people want to buy a ticket and leave in the third inning, it's their right. You may not agree with it, but so what? We have freedom of speech in this country, and if dissatisfied fans want to stage a walk out, that's their right too.

 

You are correct that we used to hear the same talk here in Wisconsin about the Brewers, but it's been clear for at least the last three or four years that the Brewers management had a plan to win. The attendance numbers at Miller Park prove that people will come if the team is competitive. We're seeing a lot more Brewers talk and coverage in the local media this year. How often are you hearing a report on Brett Favre and the Packers lately? Not as much as last summer, I bet. You can argue part of that is because the Packers have been crummy lately, and probably will be again this year, but the Brewers are becoming more popular because they are winning.

 

You really can't point to the Pirates moves over the same period, and claim that they have any kind of cohesive plan to field a competitive team. The Brewers have a plan, and are winning, so the fans are happy. The Pirates ownership, have shown they only care about making money, and have basically given the fans a big middle finger. They have a right to be angry.