What's the fuss about?

[splitterpfj]

Wow, xisxisxis says he doesn't want to post here anymore, rluzinski says we need a solution fast, new guys say they aren't respected..........

 

What's up? I think this is a great site.

 

Those of you who are unhappy right now, please tell me why. What is it that used to be different, or that you wish was different now.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I think basically it boils down to a few posters feeling singled out because they can't express EXACTLY what they are thinking. If everyone would just learn a little humility, it would go a long way.

[Brian the Automator]

At one point, the site policed itself. People knew when to agree to disagree, and people didn't get offended when other people didn't agree with their point of view. I didn't have to keep recruiting more moderators, and people didn't feel it was necessary to push each others buttons by baiting or being condescending.

 

It happened from time to time, but it was limited. Now, the site has grown immensely, and there are more conflicting personalities. I can't say i'm surprised, but I am very disappointed.

 

People need to start acting like ladies and gentlemen, rather than loudmouths. The key to the whole thing is talking to each other as you would talk to them in real life.

 

I think people also need to stop thinking that they have to "win arguments". The person who wins isn't always the one that re-phrases their argument the most... in fact quite often, the person that "wins the argument" is the one that agrees to disagree and politely exits the thread stage left.

 

If don't start having respect for the general philosophy of the site, the staff will have no recourse other than to start turning the screws even more. I don't want to do that. I would hope that people have enough respect for the site to realize when they've become obnoxious.

[mikerollins]

I think the site is wonderful! I don't have any problems with anything. I do see where people get annoyed when topics get beaten to death and I realize i'm as big of a problem as anyone.

 

I'm going to try my best to follow all the rules and sometimes just "bite my lip" for the good of the board. I respect the moderators, even met one of them (whoever used to be Squarepusher) at a game earlier this season. Super nice guy.

 

Sorry for opening up the can of worms earlier.

 

Go Brewers

[BrewCityUnit]

I won't personally attack any player any more or request they come down with a small injury. Bottom line, I don't want anyone to get hurt, it was more to just prove a point and I'm sorry if I offended anyone, even Russell if he is reading this. They are going to be things written and said about athletes that they just have to deal with. I think Russell's family can tolerate a little "sneezing" request, but I do see how it could affend some people, sensative or not.

 

Personally, I think these discussions are great. I enjoy reading what rluz, and brian the automater and ralph, brett and many others have to say. That is great that Brewer fans can be so different and have different opinions. We all want this team to be good and that is the bottom line. I don't know how this site was before, I am assuming everyone agreed pretty much and there was no challenging any thing someone else said. Somehow though, OPS becaume the most important stat in determing how good a hitter is and that bothers me. That would be like me and a gang of 6 others who thought K's were the most important stat and vigoursly brought up that one stat only. I don't take any of this personally, I just feel bad for anyone who actually thinks Russell is productive (im kidding). If they want to ban me beacuse they don't like me, that's fine, yeah I'll be sad but I can still always read what everyone else is saying and cuss at the computer when I disagree.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Somehow though, OPS becaume the most important stat in determing how good a hitter is and that bothers me. That would be like me and a gang of 6 others who thought K's were the most important stat and vigoursly brought up that one stat only. ]

 

It isn't a gang of 6 though, it's the majority of people at the site (or at least a large group of people) that think OPS is the best quick-glance indicator of offense and a way to compare players.

 

The bottom line is that you're going to have to set aside your feelings on that topic, or every thread that has a stat in it that you participate in is going to be an academic argument about OPS, and will be deemed by me or another moderator a duplicate thread and will squash a conversation that would have previously continued without that repeated argum[/b]

 

 

edit - just fixed messed up bold tag - ja002h

[BrewCityUnit]

I understand and will do by best to bite my lip if necessary.

[BillScottCanRake]

I'm going to try my best to follow all the rules and sometimes just "bite my lip" for the good of the board. I respect the moderators, even met one of them (whoever used to be Squarepusher) at a game earlier this season. Super nice guy.

 

Squarepusher and Brian the Automator are one in the same. It was just a change in forum names.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Quote:

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Somehow though, OPS becaume the most important stat in determing how good a hitter is and that bothers me.

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I don't think anyone ever said that. Yes, OPS is an important stat, but as you have said, there are many others that are as important. I guess I look at OPS, 3TO and Whoa Solvdd in the said light (i.e. inside jokes that posters latch on to here that sometimes get blown way out of proportion)

 

Quote:

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I don't know how this site was before, I am assuming everyone agreed pretty much and there was no challenging any thing someone else said.

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Like I said in the locked thread, one of this forums main ideas is quality discussions and arguments made with logical proof. I have no problem with staunch opinions, as long as you can back them up with logical proof. Saying that you watch the games and can plainly see it can't really stand up, because we all do that. If you think Russ K's too much, and can therefore not be a productive player for this team, that's great. That's a good argument that can be debated. But calling posters stat heads who don't watch games can't be argued without becoming hurtful.

 

When I first joined this site 2 years ago, arguments were just as prevalent as they are today. However, tempers and frustration wasn't. Most times, posters just agreed to disagree, and left it at that. It's all in the ability to see and respect another posters point of view. I'm sure that, even though you may not like Russ Branyan as a player, you can see the argument that someone would have for liking him. It's easy to disagree with someone without going personal. I think everyone here should strive to be the self-actualized poster--which is the poster that can have an argument in a forum, but can plainly see the other point of view, and respects the poster that has it.

[splitterpfj]

I don't understand the tension, etc. Why would anyone who posts here take themselves so seriously?

 

True, some put a more effort into baseball knowledge than others, and true we don't all agree on everything, but never forget..........we're all here debating baseball trivia. This is for fun, no one here makes their living playing baseball, we're the ones who watch those guys, then debate what they accomplished..........relax a little.

 

As several have said, everyone needs to know when it's time to back off and just let things go as a difference of opinion. Who's to say who is really right or wrong? If you take yourself too seriously, you can come off looking very silly.

 

There was a post in the locked 3B thread which questioned the intelligence of many new posters..........that very thread contained a spelling error. Be careful about talking down to people.

 

Come on, lighten up, you're a baseball fan, and everyone who reads your opinions on this site is pulling for the SAME TEAM. How fun is that?

[1992casey]

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I think Russell's family can tolerate a little "sneezing" request, but I do see how it could affend some people, sensative or not.

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Russ' aunt posted here a couple times last year and drops by the Brewers' mlb.com forum occasionally. She's able to handle some of the less flattering comments about her nephew with a sense of humor.

 

I think what happens is that there are so many forums around the internet with no moderation at all, and because of that, people lose touch with basic netiquette. Repetition and duplicate threads would be part of that. On this forum, people take offense when they're reminded to do something they should be doing anyway.

 

Years ago, when the newsgroups were the primary medium for discussion, people would be flamed for repeating something that had been covered weeks earlier. While that certainly seems extreme by today's standards, it's an example of people policing themselves.

 

In a situation very similar to what's happening on this forum right now, AOL was the first major online service to provide access to the internet. The first part of they internet made accessible was the newsgroups. Floods of AOL posters jumped in and paid little attention to netiquette, bringing things to the point where anyone who posted under an AOL address could be subject to attack.

 

I think people have to realize that the moderators here provide a service and do it well. While one might not always agree with each decision a moderator makes, the motives behind those decisions are certainly right on track. They're just trying to keep things organized and civil.

[BillScottCanRake]

I don't know how this site was before, I am assuming everyone agreed pretty much and there was no challenging any thing someone else said.

 

That's not really true.

 

There were plenty of very spirited debates, or even arguements, when Brewerfan.com opened. There were still plenty of "stats vs scouts" type debates, and plenty of "pro-player, anti-player" discussions. The difference is not in the type of discussion but rather the nature of the discussion.

 

From my point of view, the debates and discussions were more about sharing opinions and simply talking baseball. Disagreements were embraced as a way of learning more about the game, and seeing a different point of view. I might not agree with a point of view, but often times seeing that point of view, and understanding why a poster thought that way, allowed me to incorporate some of their thinking into my own, and often times made me a more knowledgable fan.

 

It seems these same discussion today are much more about "converting the non-believers" or "being right" instead of sharing ideas. Genuine discussions often degrade into a contest of wills and button pusing. There are fewer and fewer threads that I read and say "wow, I learned something here" - not because I know it all (anyone who reads my posts knows I don't), and certainly not because there aren't a bunch of smart posters here. I'm feel like I am learning less and less because that intelligent conversation we used to see here all the time either gets buried in a sea of "I'm right, and not only are you wrong but you are stupid for being wrong", Or, worse, the intelligent converstaion is never started. I wonder how many good posts have never been posted because the poster is afraid of what their point of view will do to a thread, or maybe because someone with something to add skipped a thread he/she figure would turn into a contest of wills?

 

Hopefully this doesn't sound elitist, or like you need to conform to belong here, because it's neither. But it would be nice if a sense of civility and humbleness returned to the board.

[rluzinski]

I recognize the fact that I can be very condescending in my posts. There is never an excuse for it because it doesn't serve any person. I don't understand what it is, but I never felt like I NEEDED to be before, however. There is and was plenty of non-stathead guys who start intelligent, thought out discussions regarding any number of topics. I may not have always agreed with them but I certainly respected their opinion.

 

I'm just finding it harder and harder to respect a post that says, "This guy is terrible and sucks. It's obvious and no one can tell me different." What the heck does that prove or even add to these boards? If I attempt to counter that unsubstantiated opinion with a fact or two I get bombarded with "stats are stupid!" posts. More often than not (lately especially) I've lost my cool and acted like a fool as a result. The whole situation is frustrating.

[whizkid]

Why would you reply to a post you don't respect and then wind up going around 10 times with them? You can't convert everyone immediately though it seems like you're trying your best. Just because someone posted something unsubstantiated doesn't mean everyone or anyone else bought into it.

 

The whole situation is frustrating.

 

Not really, just don't take it as your job to right all wrongs.

[Brian the Automator]

whizkid, I think your post hit the nail right on the head.

[rluzinski]

I guess when I see a post that I feel simply isn't true I feel like SOMEONE should post the truth. I'm not talking about something up for debate, like whether base stealers distract the pitcher enough to hurt his performance. More like when someone says,"doubles are better than HR's because they don't kill rallies" or "Ben Sheets isn't a winner." Stuff like that is complete rubbish and letting it go without commenting at all seems to perpetuate ignorant statements like that.

 

I don't want those kind of insightLESS comments being the norm here, like they are at other messageboards.

[1992casey]

Chris wrote a post this afternoon that exemplifies the type of thing we need to see more of. Rather than taking a side, it presents some ideas on both sides of the coin and offers a springboard for discussion.

 

We're seeing that type of post popping up on the Statistical Analysis forum. It's refreshing.

[DSFastball55]

I guess when I see a post that I feel simply isn't true I feel like SOMEONE should post the truth. I'm not talking about something up for debate, like whether base stealers distract the pitcher enough to hurt his performance. More like when someone says,"doubles are better than HR's because they don't kill rallies" or "Ben Sheets isn't a winner." Stuff like that is complete rubbish and letting it go without commenting at all seems to perpetuate ignorant statements like that.

 

Both of the statements you use as examples are, in fact, debatable. I don't agree with either one of them and in fact think both ideas are silly, but an argument can be made for both. I won't do it though. I probably wouldn't bother even replying to statements such as these because at the end of the argument, it still comes down to opinion.

I don't like to get involved in these types of discussions, I guess I don't take this board as seriously as some do, I just wanted to point out that "truth" is a pretty tough thing to prove when you're talking about baseball. As for statistics, I believe every statistic out there is flawed in some way (some more than others), and no stat should be taken as the absolute "truth" about a player.

[rwa12]

Chris summed up my feeling exactly in his "converting the non-believers" post.

[DHonks]

I will say that it is often awkward being someone torn between OPS/stats and what I see/feel. There's a certain part of all games that is based on "this kid is gonna be a star"-type feelings.

 

Sometimes stats don't prove things, and it gets very tiring hearing the arguments between statheads and non-statheads. I wouldn't say that the OPS-folks are the problem. I think they provide a great deal of insight. The problem with the stat is slugging percentage, as many like me simply don't know what a good slugging percentage is. Throw in that two .850 OPS's are not created equally, and you have a stat that--while accurate--is open to criticism.

 

This site used to be about a great dialogue. I don't know if the current tensions are veterans vs veterans, newbies vs newbies, or vets vs newbies. But they are obviously there. Heck, many posts are now like what the off-topic forum was before Brian banned political discussion. I think perhaps the simple solution is for all of us to take a step back, be a bit more polite, try to avoid divisive diction, and to enjoy the rest of the year.

[1992casey]

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The problem with the stat is slugging percentage, as many like me simply don't know what a good slugging percentage is. Throw in that two .850 OPS's are not created equally, and you have a stat that--while accurate--is open to criticism.

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This is a perfect question for the Statistical Analysis Forum. The more basic questions don't have to be excluded just because some threads cover topics like Log5 Equation.

 

I'll see if I can get around to starting a thread over there which addresses your question. If I don't get around to it right away, please feel free to beat me to the punch. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

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I don't know if the current tensions are veterans vs veterans, newbies vs newbies, or vets vs newbies. ... I think perhaps the simple solution is for all of us to take a step back, be a bit more polite, try to avoid divisive diction, and to enjoy the rest of the year.

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As Brian stated above, whizkid said it very well: Why would you reply to a post you don't respect and then wind up going around 10 times with them? You can't convert everyone immediately though it seems like you're trying your best. That seems to have been the biggest problem of late. Unfortunately, even though they should know better, veterans have been at least as guilty of doing that as newbies.

 

The biggest issue I see with newbies seems to actually happen with very few of them. Some come in and start scolding the entire board within their first few posts. My suggestion to those thinking about replying would be that if you don't think what you're going to say is very tactful, let the moderators handle it.