Is Elitism a Bad Thing?

[don1481]

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Call me crazy, but those look pretty similar to me. I never made a disparaging comment about bjames. My reference was to the subject matter only, and the tone of said matter. You're inferring intent that wasn't there.

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Am I? Did you even need to bother with that reference though? Similar or not... I'm sure most people on the site would have preferred BJames not have been brought up.

 

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Besides, no one's pointing to that thread as an example of your posting. You made 2 posts there, so what. It's a consistent pattern that has been observed over a period of time.

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Uh... so it's acceptable, though, for moderators to make countless one-liners on the site yet for the rest of us... it's not? Please. I think we would all be so much happier if we *all* - mods, posters, everyone - didn't have so many one-liners. Sometimes, there's just a juicy bit that can't go without comment... we all know that. But sometimes, you just gotta hold it in.

 

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That's certainly true to some extent, as referenced by rluz's Negative Thread Generator thread. But it's a harder thing to negotiate when you start decided what's a valid negative thread and what isn't.

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It's not the fact that a thread is *negative* that's the issue here, Ja, it's the fact that the SAME TOPICS surface... over... and over... and over. If I wanted to read that I'd go to ESPN and see if Peter Gammons knows what decade he's in.

[Katuluu]

it's the fact that the SAME TOPICS surface... over... and over... and over.

 

Start new or "better" topics. Or simply post in threads that you think have the best discussion going on, thus keeping those threads at the top of the boards.

 

/thread

[don1481]

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Start new or "better" topics. Or simply post in threads that you think have the best discussion going on, thus keeping those threads at the top of the boards.

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I'm sure it'll pick up as Spring Training draws to a close but... over the winter, as you well know, there's only so many topics you can beat to death. And when those topics start repeating that have already been beat to death, do you post in the original just to "bump it up?" Based on Mass' observation here, that could be mistaken for meaningless garbage posts.

 

*sigh*

[billyhallfan]

I'm not an avid fan, I get in trouble all of the time at school because I listen to the day games on my radio during class, got it taken away 12 times last year. But I don't leave"stats or "facts" all the times, most of what all of us post is an "oppinion" an oppinion isn't right or wrong, should you back it up sometimes, yes, but others it is not necessary.

 

So is elitism a bad thing, not all the time, but once in a while yes it is.

[1992casey]

billyhallfan,

 

I, for one, enjoy your posts. I encourage you to keep doing what you're doing. You have the right attitude. That, as much as anything, earns respect on a message board.

 

You don't need stats every time (even though, in this case, you actually did refer to one). There's nothing wrong at all with presenting a concept, suggesting it makes some sense in your mind, and asking the opinions of others.

 

Now, had you done something like this, it would have been different:

I think Billy Castro is underrated. It would take a moron not to notice that this team's spring ERA SUCKS!!!!! This absolutely proves Billy's value to the team!!!!!

But you didn't do that. And when you were put on the spot, you handled yourself well and with class.

 

(Disclaimer: excessive punctuation is used here for illustrative purposes only. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif)

[Katuluu]

do you post in the original just to "bump it up?" Based on Mass' observation here, that could be mistaken for meaningless garbage posts.

 

Well, one could actually add content to the thread by writing out a well thoughtout post. You argument seems to act under the assumption that this is difficult for everyone.

[Katuluu]

most of what all of us post is an "oppinion" an oppinion isn't right or wrong

 

Opinions most certainly can be right or wrong. I can claim till I am blue in the face that in my opinion water isn't wet but dry, but that doesn't make my opinion any less incorrect. If your opinion doesn't follow facts, then I'm sorry to tell you this, it's wrong.

[don1481]

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Well, one could actually add content to the thread by writing out a well thoughtout post. You argument seems to act under the assumption that this is difficult for everyone.

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It's difficult when, as I stated in my previous post, the topic already has been beaten to death and there's really not much else to say at that point. That's where I have the issue.

[Katuluu]

I'm talking about threads that you enjoy and think still have value. If they do then post in them, otherwise just ignore the ones you don't like and they will fall by the wayside. By repeatedly posting in threads you don't like or believe have no value, you are merely contributing and compounding the problem that you claim to be against.

[PeaveyFury]

I think that a lot of the 'eliteism' that is viewed by some people on the board comes from posters not understanding that arguments are going to happen on a lot of topics, and that if they post something controversial (ie 'Cut Eveland', etc), they should be prepared to defend their position with facts or legitimate observations. It's just that when a post like that happens and they get challenged, some get turned off to this style of message board or feel bullied. But most of us started in a similar situation either here or on the old boards elsewhere, so those same posters can become vital, insightful contributing members of the forums.

 

I agree with Don to a point, that the threads can often become obscenely repetitive, especially during the offseasons. The solution? I don't read the non-off topic forums regularly because I know that there's not going to be a lot of new stuff/discussions. I simply scan the thread titles in the major and minor league forums looking for transaction or injury news, along with any topics that might be interesting. Otherwise, I don't spend much time there. Heck, I probably haven't read through a thread in the 'Trade Rumors' forum since early January, because I know that there's not going to be a lot of things in there.

 

The off-topic forum creates some of the same problems too. I think with that forum (even moreso than the others) there's a desire by most people, including myself, to read most if not all of the threads. You know what? There are going to be a lot of threads that you don't care about that are about topics that don't interest you, but probably interest some of the other posters. For some reason, posters feel the need to slam some of those topics for being discussed. Just because someone doesn't like Nascar or Pro Wrestling or whatever doesn't mean that it's insightful and witty for them to post something like 'I can't believe people want to watch cars make left turns all day' or whatever. I personally don't follow Nascar or care how races turn out, so I don't read those threads or feel compelled to post anything in the thread. If you're not a fan of the NFL and don't care about football at all, why would you even be compelled to read a thread clearly labelled 'NFL Collective Bargaining Talks,' and why would you be compelled to post 'I'm not a fan of the NFL and don't care about football at all' in the thread?

 

I think that that is where some of the elitism and bad taste comes from.

[giffted1]

I feel that too many people on this board think that the only ones with a right to post on this board are people that know everything there is to know about baseball. Some new people come and post some unsupported opinion and get completely ripped apart. It's their opinion and it should be respected. You can dissagree with their opinion but don't insult them.

Brewerfan.net would suggest that this is a site for Brewers fans. Not all Brewer fans are going to know a lot about baseball if anything, but these casual fans are just as important as the rest of us. What if we'd tell all the "uneducated" baseball fans that they weren't welcome in Miller Park. Our attendance would make Devil Rays games look packed.

[mothershipconnection]

It's their opinion and it should be respected. You can dissagree with their opinion but don't insult them.

Absolutely. If it's stated as opinion, nobody should get flamed.

Sometimes, however, some cocky newbie will let us know that "it's a fact that Bill Hall is a better SS than JJ Hardy and K's are WAY worse than all other outs". That is when opinions become troublesome here.

[rluzinski]

Sometimes, however, some cocky newbie will let us know that "it's a fact that Bill Hall is a better SS than JJ Hardy and K's are WAY worse than all other outs". That is when opinions become troublesome here.

 

That sums up my feelings exactly.

[deeswan]

K's are WAY worse than all other outs

 

It is my humble opinion that that is a fact.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Sometimes, however, some cocky newbie will let us know that "it's a fact that Bill Hall is a better SS than JJ Hardy and K's are WAY worse than all other outs". That is when opinions become troublesome here. ]

 

Are you being sarcastic?

 

I don't agree that Hall's a better SS than Hardy and that K's are WAY worse than other outs, but I can certainly see how people would hold that opinion.

[BillScottCanRake]

From dictionary.com:

 

e?lit?ism or é?lit?ism

Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)

n.

 

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

2.

1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

 

LINK: Dictionary.com: Elitism

 

Using that definition, I don't see how it can be anything but negative. I don't want BF.net to be some closed, secret society of "elite" thinkers. I want BF.net to be a place where people who are serious about baseball, or who want to become serious about baseball, can come to have fun and intelligent discussions about baseball, and learn more about the game than they thought was possible. That simply isn?t possible if rather than welcoming new members we shun them because they aren?t up to some artificial standard set by a few ?elite? posters.

 

While I do understand that Brewerfan.net was created to cater to the more serious fan, being condescending and "elitist" doesn't do anyone any good. How can those less serious fans learn what others here have learned if instead of being taught they are just told how "silly" or "stupid" their opinion is?

 

If someone thinks Abernathy should make the 25 man roster because of his spring training numbers, aren't we all better served by explaining placing too much weight on those numbers is not necessarily the best thing to do, and why?

 

I owe a TON to this site, its creators and the original ?regulars?. They made this site what it is today, not only because of their incredible knowledge of baseball, but because of the class and tact they used arguing their points. There is no way I'd have been "converted" had they not displayed that class and tact. Untaught knowledge is a complete waste.

 

I think a lot of the "new" regulars could learn a thing or two in that regard. Because while their knowledge level may be on par with the best of the site, the methods used by the "new" experts to convey the message leaves a lot to be desired in a lot of cases.

[Nicole the Baker]

Don, was this thread really necessary? It is a flagrant attempt at stirring up bad feeling regarding the moderators here and the high quality of discussion. For someone who prides himself with (supposedly) being part of the team here, you obviously don't have the same emotional and intellectual investment that Brian has tried to foster in other members of the site. If you did, you would see that this thread and your responses were nothing more than childish attempts to stir up muck. Elitism IS a bad thing...with obvious negative connotations. Even the phrasing of the title of this post begs to the type of responses you'd like to see. If you were truly interested in the issue, you'd first try to make sure your own posts lived up to the high posting standards expected here. Yes, some people have attitude problems here. It is not your job to personally deal with this. If you have a problem with the posting style here, you should privately contact one (or more) of the mods FIRST, rather than posting some inflammatory statement in the Issues forum.

 

Why does it seem that the people with the least to say are the most insistent upon saying it? I read this site every day, numerous times a day. I love baseball but I realize that I usually don't have anything to add to the discussion. If I can't add something thought-provoking or intelligent...I DON'T. Later in this post you said "It's difficult when, as I stated in my previous post, the topic already has been beaten to death and there's really not much else to say at that point. That's where I have the issue."

 

No well thought out questions or responses, Don? If there is "really not much else to say at that point" why do you insist upon adding to it?

 

This isn't elitism. It's common sense.

[don1481]

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Don, was this thread really necessary?

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Yes, it absolutely was.

 

And judging from the responses on this thread, a number of others agree.

 

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If you have a problem with the posting style here, you should privately contact one (or more) of the mods FIRST, rather than posting some inflammatory statement in the Issues forum.

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And how would the others with the same concern as me have known that this issue was even being addressed then? They wouldn't have.

 

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Why does it seem that the people with the least to say are the most insistent upon saying it? I read this site every day, numerous times a day. I love baseball but I realize that I usually don't have anything to add to the discussion. If I can't add something thought-provoking or intelligent...I DON'T. Later in this thread you said "It's difficult when, as I stated in my previous post, the topic already has been beaten to death and there's really not much else to say at that point. That's where I have the issue."

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Wow. That's completely taking what I said out of context. The issue that katuluu brought up was how to keep relevant topics near the "top" on page 1 even if those topics haven't had anything meaningful to add. I think you and I agree in the sense that we shouldn't post to just "bump up" a thread. I think we disagree, though, in how discussions that have been done in depth (examples are found throughout this thread) can be dealt with when someone introduces a 500th "Hardy Sux" thread.

[Nicole the Baker]

I'll try to address your comments in order:

 

"Yes, it absolutely was.

 

And judging from the responses on this thread, a number of others agree."

 

I have no problem with people having some complaints about the site. I have no problem with people voicing said complaints. I DO have problems with you deliberately stirring up unfounded negative sentiments. Your original post was seemingly IN FAVOR of elitism...stating that it wasn't such a bad thing. Now...knowing that some posters here have concerns about that topic, you had to have known that would stir up anger and bring about inevitable backlash against the supposed elitism. Not only are you saying that elitism is a good thing...you are shoving it in people's faces and trying to pass it off as the site's philosophy. I really don't appreciate that.

 

"And how would the others with the same concern as me have known that this issue was even being addressed then? They wouldn't have."

 

Do other people really need to discuss this in an open forum at this point? Why is there a problem with the moderators handling this? If others have similar concerns, they also should take them to the appropriate sources. If there are enough complaints, Brian usually handles problems by addressing them publicly. He doesn't need you to help. Have you discussed this amongst other members at length and come to a decision that this needed to be dealt with immediately outside of the regular moderation? Because that would be the only acceptable way to deal with a complaint such as this that can't be genuinely quantified. There are proper and responsible ways of handling a legitimate complaint and your method was not it. To be taken seriously, you need to have your concerns addressed through proper channels. Otherwise, you are just being a troublemaker...and you've never had a mod correct you on anything numerous times, have you Don?

 

"Wow. That's completely taking what I said out of context."

 

I disagree. You said yourself that you wanted to know how to keep relevant topics near the top. If there is nothing meaningful to add, by definition the topic is no longer relevant. Why do you have to start a new thread or even comment in the old one, if, in your own words "even if those topics haven't had anything meaningful to add"?

[don1481]

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Have you discussed this amongst other members at length and come to a decision that this needed to be dealt with immediately outside of the regular moderation? Because that would be the only acceptable way to deal with a complaint such as this that can't be genuinely quantified.

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As a matter of fact, yes I have discussed this with other members at length. And rather than bombarding the moderators with this issue, especially seeing as concerns expressed by others *have* gone unresolved in the past, it was deemed that this would be an appropriate venue to take up this discussion. One centralized location, visible to all of those who care to show concern, rather than getting X number of responses with X numbers of opinions from X number of moderators.

 

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Do other people really need to discuss this in an open forum at this point? Why is there a problem with the moderators handling this? If others have similar concerns, they also should take them to the appropriate sources. If there are enough complaints, Brian usually handles problems by addressing them publicly.

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It's not Brian that's the problem, Nicole. Never has been, never will be. As I state above, it's the fact that when one *does* email the moderators, as you suggest, one often gets a differing opinion from each moderator. So really... what gain is there to be made by doing so? Further confusion? A lack of openness?

 

One of the strengths of BF.Net when I first started posting was its relative transparentness. Everyone knew how the site was run, what to expect from others, and that their concerns would be fairly heard. Now? It seems like that vision is obfuscated.

 

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Now...knowing that some posters here have concerns about that topic, you had to have known that would stir up anger and bring about inevitable backlash against the supposed elitism. Not only are you saying that elitism is a good thing...you are shoving it in people's faces and trying to pass it off as the site's philosophy. I really don't appreciate that.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa... am I shoving this in people's faces? Absolutely not. If I wanted to do something like that, I probably would have replied directly to the thread referenced in the original post. All I'm trying to do is comment about the fact that BF.NET prided itself on the fact that it was a place for *informed* discussion, as opposed to other sites that BF.NET was originally founded to replace. Is that elitist? Based on dictionary.com's definition of elitism:

 

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

 

It certainly is. As I recall, there was a *lot* of looking down upon sites like ESPN.com by many of the moderators here because its baseball talk was, well, uninformed and completely ridiculous. We deserved favored treatment in the sense that we deserved a place to have these intellectual discussions. That's *all* I meant. That's *all* I have ever implied.

[Brian the Automator]

Here's the deal:

 

1) New members should not be "shamed" away. If they're rough around the edges, give them a hand instead of flaming them.

 

2) We're getting a lot of "internet tough guys" around here, recently. Condescendence is one of my biggest pet peeves. Talk to people like you'd actually talk to them face-to-face.

 

3) I picked my moderators for justifiable reasons. They have full authority. If I have a problem with what one of them does, I confront them. Until then, do what they say. If one of them comes down on you, you were probably being stupid, distracting, or a jerk.

 

4) We're going to start deleting one-liners and posts with excessive annoying emoticons. Don, you're one of the primary culprits. Off-topic posts and IGT's are exceptions to the rule (for the most part). Let's have some pride in posting.

 

5) Stop with the finger pointing. I hear a lot of "well, this guy does this, and I get yelled at for it". No one draws the 'evil eye' of the moderators unless they're consistently being foolish. We're pretty tolerant people.

 

To sum up:

 

Treat people with respect, and treat threads with respect. We were all newbies once too. Just because some of you had to learn through the school of hard knocks doesn't give you the right to blatantly flame a newbie.

 

Also, none of us get paid for this babysitting. Understand that before you raise holy hell. We do the best we can.

[Mass Haas]

Brian, awesome summary post. Let's end this on this note.

 

Don certainly stated his case, others chimed in, and it's too darn close to the regular season to let this circle around again.

 

Except for my little blurb here, Brian, you had the last word on this, as it should be.

 

Thread closed. Play ball!