Is Elitism a Bad Thing?

[don1481]

When I was looking at this thread, I couldn't help but observe:

 

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Al, it's comments like these that have some people labelling this site as filled with "elitists"

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Brian, this board has been considered "elitist" by many since well before even I started posting here.

 

The words "Brewerfan.net" and "elitist" generally go hand in hand.

 

Is it necessarily a bad thing? I don't believe so. People, it's called "backing up your statements with facts." I got jumped when I first started posting here because I didn't always bring my facts. I got small-sample sized quite a bit. When dealing with a bunch of statheads (myself included), one cannot base an argument around principles that can be taken to the toolshed by anyone who knows how to use Google or a baseball stats site.

 

There will always be an air of "elitism" at BF.net, not necessarily because posters think that they're "better" than others on this site but... because they *are* better than those at other sites. Wasn't part of the purpose of forming this site to get *away* from the drama and theatrics and insanely inane arguments found on ESPN? By definition, this site was formed as an elitist escape from "regular" sites, where those who want to know more about what's going on with the Brewers and look at the future of our club could find refuge.

 

Yes, I understand that sometimes we all need to not pull out the whipping belt so strongly when we find a particular thread obnoxious but... one difference between BF.net now and BF.net two years ago is that BF.net two years ago was a lot more self-moderated... in part because people were afraid of getting their comments completely being beaten down for being poorly supported/repetitive/etc. I'm concerned we're moving away from that model... and in the process watering down the discussion on the site.

 

So really... is elitism such a bad thing?

[brewers19]

Yes, it is.

 

Even if you're 10,000 times better than someone else, that doesn't mean that you should act like it. It's a little thing called civility.

[don1481]

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Even if you're 10,000 times better than someone else, that doesn't mean that you should act like it. It's a little thing called civility.

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Hence my adding "I understand that sometimes we all need to not pull out the whipping belt so strongly when we find a particular thread obnoxious" to my original post. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Seriously, though, the topic here isn't so much whether or not we should be bashing posters on *this* site so much as to whether or not part of the culture that made BF.net *the* place for Brewers talk was because of the inherent elitism that I talked about in my first post. Knowing that you're going to get the sky raining down on you from some of our more... "stat-driven" posters is a great way to make sure that one doesn't go spouting their mouth off with another "The Sky is Falling! Ben Sheets' Career is OVER!" thread.

 

Sure, self-moderation is not perfect. Yes, especially as a site becomes more and more popular, we would lose some people that stumble upon this site and are overwhelmed by the intensity of some of the discussion but... let's look at other sites for clubs around... SOSH? Elitist. Cubs' sites? Elitist. Go up and down the list, folks. All of the top fan-based sites like BF.net *are* going to have an inherently elitist culture.

 

Ultimately, you decide whether to appeal to the general public or to the die-hard. You cannot do both. If one tries, it's almost guaranteed that they will alienate both groups in the process.

[brewerjamie15]

Brewerfan.net's entire purpose is to turn casual fans into avid fans.

It -can- happen, and it -does- happen. Look at the number of members we have. It's a number that is constantly growing. No matter what it is you're trying to accomplish, you may very well get labeled in certain ways by people. There's nothing you can do about it. You -can- however ****** the process.

I think that this site is very inviting. I think that the site has a great reputation, and that we are by no means "above" other fan sites. Sure, some folks are quick to the draw from time to time, but that's not terribly often. Yeah, some people may think of BF.net as "elite" all we can hope is that in those cases it is not a negative connotation.

[Mass Haas]

People, it's called "backing up your statements with facts." I got jumped when I first started posting here because I didn't always bring my facts.

 

Don, on Friday night alone, you made about twenty posts on the Major League Forum (not the game thread, either) that contained nothing but one liners, linked photos attempting humor, and emoticons. I know, because I suffered through them while catching up on that forum Saturday morning.

 

Actually, we're thanking you for that because it became the impetus to move the In-Game Threads out of the Major League Forum, as we're going to tolerate less-and-less of the nonsense posts on the Major League Forum (take them to Off-Topic if you must).

 

The fact that you started the "elitist" thread -- now that's comedy.

[Brian the Automator]

There are other ways to help people form better arguments than to "jump" them. If someone makes an error or bad assumption in a post, it doesn't take that much effort to handle it with class.

 

There's no reason to sacrifice quality, but at the same time, we don't have to be jerks about it.

[DuWayne Steurer]

There's no reason to sacrifice quality, but at the same time, we don't have to be jerks about it.

 

 

If I may comment here.........

 

I agree with both points of that sentence Brian.

 

I have to point out when I started posting here nearly 4 years ago, I had no clue what OPS was. I didn't know what OXS was, or VORP, or OPS+, or any of that. I made rash generalizations, based on what I "saw with my eyes"........so on and so forth. And I was "jumped" for it. I'm not saying it's right, but I took the lumps, learned the lesson (made a new username) and moved on. It was quickly apparent that the level of baseball conversation at this site was a cut above anything else out there.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone specifically, but I also don't remember any knight in shining armor jumping to my aid when I was getting the same treatment for not knowing the Ps and Qs (and OXS's and VORPS). I just don't think the level of discussion is as high as it used to be, and in my opinion it's not the one liners and quips that bring it down, it's thread after thread about how spring training stats are the be all-end all, Dana Eveland must obviously suck, JJ Hardy will never be any good.....etc, etc.

[don1481]

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Actually, we're thanking you for that because it became the impetus to move the In-Game Threads out of the Major League Forum, as we're going to tolerate less-and-less of the nonsense posts on the Major League Forum (take them to Off-Topic if you must).

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So... does that include comments by others (including/especially moderators) or am I being singled out here?

 

Look at the original post by Ja. Look where it links. Is that necessarily at all professional for a moderator to be inviting shots at a person that has been banned for some time?

 

Compare that linked thread then to the posts that I did make. Note the parallels? It's called *parody,* Mass. I mean... the thread, especially once Ja made that one-line, was basically de-evolving anyways... so why not make fun of it a little?

[Brian the Automator]

Occasional one-lining is OK, but I think what we have a problem with is serial one-lining.

[deeswan]

I will add only my $.02. In regard to Brian's post to Al, I really think that, if someone is a moderator on the site, they need to be held to a higher standard than others. If a site wants to be labeled "elitist," it need only to allow those with "moderator" under their screen names to make condescending comments to other posters.

[brewers19]

Don, my qualms are with the entire concept, and your one little disclaimer doesn't change anything for me.

 

I think that it's a great thing for this site to be the best place out there for knowledgeable discussion about the Brewers, but it should be that way because people decide to give us that respect, not because we demand it of them.

Maybe I overvalue modesty, but if someone says that you are good at something, it just seems to be in bad form to reply, "Hell yeah, I know. Aren't I freaking awesome?! It's great being better than everyone else."

 

Brewerfan.net is a product. And even though it is not really here to generate money, it is still important to value the potential customer. And alienating them by acting as if we're better than them is not the way to do it.

[splitterpfj]

I've never considered the site elitist. You can post freely here if you're all about stats, new stats, old stats, regular stats, fat free stats........or no stats at all.

 

The only issues I ever have with people who use the site are when someone really rips someone else who clearly has a lower level of baseball knowledge, or must doesn't see things the same way they do. MLB itself has one league with a DH and one without it, who are we to think everyone who loves the Brewers does so for the exact same reasons?

 

From personal experience, I just started talking baseball on here, sharing stories from games I've attended, favorite players, etc. All I was doing was having some fun and enjoying the conversation......now I have articles posted on the site on a regular basis. Brian had never heard my name when I started posting here, neither had any of the moderators, but it was Chris who suggested I submit articles, and Brian had no problem using them because I had something interesting to say. No one here ever told me to stick to a particular list of stats, or ideas, what I say comes from me every time.

 

Anyone out there could follow suit, all you need to do is have an informed opinion and share it, or have the simplest question and ask it....your posts will be welcomed.

 

Is it really that difficult? Instead of saying "that guy rocks"....say, "I think this guy is really good, here's why. What do you think?"

[1992casey]

If people want to call this site elite because the staff insists on netiquette, respect, decorum, a degree of substance to a post, a cursory effort to spell, avoiding serial one-liners, not repeating the same thing over and over, etc., so be it.

 

What's bad is when this site is called elite because the perception arises that there's an intolerance for certain points of view.

 

I don't agree with the cause-effect connection billyhallfan made in don's aforementioned thread. But I don't see anything in his post that I'd classify as 'far below this board'. Certainly, there was no arrogance involved.

 

Even if one perceives the rationale behind a thread to be flawed, that doesn't mean there isn't value. What ended up being really cool in this case was the excellent responses the initial post provoked from Brewer Fever.

 

Brian's right. There's no reason to be a jerk. Even the posts with netiquette issues are best handled with a degree of class. I'd say that's especially true when responding to new posters. I've seen a lot of people come in with rough edges that end up being smoothed out quite nicely.

[dadofandrew]

I talked to Brian via e-mail, so i will not discuss what was said. That said, one thing to keep in mind is that Brian has his own goals for the site, and they probably aren't the same as yours and mine.

 

And SOSH is a joke, for the most part. What passes for high intellect talk over there is someone using OPS. What's really funny is they keep new posters from signing up, when most new posters would be a huge improvement.

[molitor fan]

one thing to keep in mind is that Brian has his own goals for the site, and they probably aren't the same as yours and mine.

 

So he DOES intend to take over the world with a strong jawed, power laden third baseman as the world's de facto leader. I knew it all along. 3TO - The 3rd Total Oligarchy?

[don1481]

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Maybe I overvalue modesty, but if someone says that you are good at something, it just seems to be in bad form to reply, "Hell yeah, I know. Aren't I freaking awesome?! It's great being better than everyone else."

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So, running around here saying "hey everyone! Come here and see how good I look!" isn't exactly the best idea, right...?

 

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Brewerfan.net is a product. And even though it is not really here to generate money, it is still important to value the potential customer. And alienating them by acting as if we're better than them is not the way to do it.

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As implied in Al's post, his and my desires are different now than what Brian's are now. Several years ago, I would imagine that our hopes for this site were far more aligned.

[brewers19]

I stand by the statements that I made. That's all I have to say.

[DuWayne Steurer]

brewers19...

 

 

going back to your original post..

 

I don't think anyone here is "demanding respect", but I think a lot of people at THIS site demand that people back up statements (such as "we should accept that Dana Eveland sucks" with more than just blustery opinion. The fact that the majority of the posters here ARE so knowledgeable, and DO back up what they say with a mountain of evidence is why (to me at least) this is such a great place to post.

 

If I want to read posts that say "Hardy suxors! LOLOL!" I'll just go over to ESPN.

[ja002h]

Is that necessarily at all professional for a moderator to be inviting shots at a person that has been banned for some time?

 

I was simply struck by the very similar first posts in both threads.

 

bjames doesn't need my help to be criticized.

[don1481]

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I stand by the statements that I made. That's all I have to say.

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Well, good. I'm glad you don't let some frothing at the mouth rabid poster like me bully you aroundhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

You're entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine.

 

Of course, I will always think that mine is right because, well, it's *mine*.

 

But seriously though... what product *are* we trying to sell here? Are we trying to sell top-notch Brewers and baseball discussion where our opinions are backed up by facts and not by pure speculation? Are we trying to be a clone of ESPN circa 2000 (plus heavy moderating)? I think that's the biggest thing that's missing here - a real vision. What *is* it that Brian's looking for here?

 

Jamie says:

 

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Brewerfan.net's entire purpose is to turn casual fans into avid fans.

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But where does that leave the avid fan?

[don1481]

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bjames doesn't need my help to be criticized.

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BJames' name hadn't been mentioned in quite some time on this site until you brought it up in that thread. Brian has talked elsewhere about letting BJames' legacy ride off into the glorious sunset of nutjobs.

 

Now, let's say, for discussion's sake, that I posted that post rather than you. If I was a betting man, I'd wager that one of you mods would have been on me so quickly for resurfacing that old skeleton that it would have gotten fairly messy.

 

So, of course after you make that post in that thread, the BJames commentaries start coming back. And at that point, the thread was pretty much trashed. So, someone like me who realizes this decides to parody the thread that you so kindly referenced in the first place.

 

Now... where does the criticism go, the person that started the obnoxious BJames feeding frenzy or towards the person who parodied what was going on? Makes perfect sense to me.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

[ja002h]

But where does that leave the avid fan?

 

Having sensible, well-reasoned discussion without namecalling, flame wars, or constant attempts to have the best zinger of the thread. Creating more avid fans can only help the conversation.

[don1481]

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Having sensible, well-reasoned discussion without namecalling, flame wars, or constant attempts to have the best zinger of the thread.

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Bo-ring! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

In all seriousness, Ja, it's hard for many of the seasoned posters to have those discussions with a lot of the "HARDY SUX!!" or "EVELAND IS TERRIBLE" threads that we've been seeing around here lately. As RoCo so eloquently pointed out, *that's* where the real problem lies. Those are the threads that the mods should be focusing on, locking down - in a polite, non overbearing manner - when they're posted.

[ja002h]

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Why is everyone in this state in love with Bill Hall. I get that he is a word working versatile player, but I dont ever see him making an all star game in his career. I see him being an average stater during his best years. Dont get me wrong, I like Bill Hall and thinks he adds versatile depth to our team but I dont understand why it seems like hes liked more in this state than Brett Favre.

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The newly found Bill Hall love by some here needs to stop. The guy has had a 10 game hot streak and people want to move him to the 2 and 3 hole in the lineup for good?!? The guy is a very poor man's Soriano.... The ONLY value Hall has is that he can play multiple positions...other than that he's junk. Don't let 2 weeks of ball pull the wool over your eyes people.

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Call me crazy, but those look pretty similar to me. I never made a disparaging comment about bjames. My reference was to the subject matter only, and the tone of said matter. You're inferring intent that wasn't there.

 

 

So, of course after you make that post in that thread, the BJames commentaries start coming back. And at that point, the thread was pretty much trashed. So, someone like me who realizes this decides to parody the thread that you so kindly referenced in the first place.

 

There were a couple "wow, I forgot about that thread" comments, and then conversation actually continued on. The real derailing, if you want to call it such, was when it turned into a "Hall wouldn't give me an autograph"/"He signed for me" conversation.

 

Besides, no one's pointing to that thread as an example of your posting. You only made 2 posts there, I think the concern expressed by Mass is a longer period of time.

 

Finally, if anyone else interpreted that post as an easy potshot, I'm sorry for misleading. It was never intended as such, as I've stated several times above.

[ja002h]

In all seriousness, Ja, it's hard for many of the seasoned posters to have those discussions with a lot of the "HARDY SUX!!" or "EVELAND IS TERRIBLE" threads that we've been seeing around here lately. As RoCo so eloquently pointed out, *that's* where the real problem lies. Those are the threads that the mods should be focusing on, locking down - in a polite, non overbearing manner - when they're posted.

 

That's certainly true to some extent, as referenced by rluz's Negative Thread Generator thread. But it's a harder thing to negotiate when you start decided what's a valid negative thread and what isn't.