Is Mark A positioning the Brewers for a sale?

[Frisbee Slider]

Do we think fans will boo the Attanasio family during the Opening Day national anthem tradition?

i certainly am not advocating for that because Mark has done quite bit for the franchise.

[BlightyBrew]

1 hour ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

• Why is payroll down from last year?
• Who is replacing 2 of the top 3 spots in the bullpen pecking order? (Hader/Rogers and Boxberger) Names can be offered up but are they realistic or just wishful?
• How was the savings from not having to pay Hader his projected $14 million reallocated elsewhere?
• Did Stearns step down because he was told payroll had to be cut?
• Is the recent backlash from various players (Burnes, Lauer, Cain) a result of players feeling betrayed by the Brewers not spending more to win in this competitive window?

Some more musings going through my mind now that camp is underway and the "there's still plenty of time before the season" narrative is evaporating. I was one of those posters who would say that when people were lamenting the lack of moves in Januarys past. I look back at this past offseason and believe that not only was there no intent to add payroll, I now believe the mandate was to cut salary no matter what. To do so in this competitive window with Burns and Woodruff atop the rotation is a stark departure from the way Attanasio has operated in the past. Something has changed.

 

I'd like to add to your list of questions if I may.  There were years in the middle 2000's when we also didn't spend.  The reasoning was to be financial flexible at a later date.  Where did that money go.

Excellent post and subject.

 

[BlightyBrew]

12 minutes ago, Frisbee Slider said:

Do we think fans will boo the Attanasio family during the Opening Day national anthem tradition?

i certainly am not advocating for that because Mark has done quite bit for the franchise.

I hope so.  It's a two way street.  This franchise has also done a lot for Mark.

[Playing Catch]

I rarely listen to podcasts and I don't live in the MKE area. But my impression over the years is that there must be one or two local talking heads that have been really critical of ownership in recent seasons, and that a lot of casual fans are influenced by them. Is that accurate?

It's an easy ploy to get the radio version of "clicks," to be critical of ownership. It's easy for folks to hate rich people.

[nate82]

2 hours ago, BlightyBrew said:

I'd like to add to your list of questions if I may.  There were years in the middle 2000's when we also didn't spend.  The reasoning was to be financial flexible at a later date.  Where did that money go.

It was spent on payroll.  If you look at the Brewers payroll history there are only 3-years where payroll had dipped below the previous year by a significant amount. 

In 2004 payroll went down $13m, 2011 it went down $10m and in 2016 it went down $41m.  In 2017 and 2018 payroll jumped $27m and $32m. Payroll also jumped $32m last year. 

 

 

[MVP2110]

12 minutes ago, Playing Catch said:

I rarely listen to podcasts and I don't live in the MKE area. But my impression over the years is that there must be one or two local talking heads that have been really critical of ownership in recent seasons, and that a lot of casual fans are influenced by them. Is that accurate?

It's an easy ploy to get the radio version of "clicks," to be critical of ownership. It's easy for folks to hate rich people.

The Cold Brew podcast & the Brew Crew review are very harsh of Mark A and Co. 

I find the MKE Tailgate podcast to be the most neutral although that's not to say they are never critical of Mark A because they certainly can be, but it seems more justified and the reasoning is well thought out when they are. 

[MrTPlush]

3 hours ago, BlightyBrew said:

I hope so.  It's a two way street.  This franchise has also done a lot for Mark.

Mark could run the team like the Marlins and he would still have the same franchise value and probably even bigger yearly profits. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

• Why is payroll down from last year?
• Who is replacing 2 of the top 3 spots in the bullpen pecking order? (Hader/Rogers and Boxberger) Names can be offered up but are they realistic or just wishful?
• How was the savings from not having to pay Hader his projected $14 million reallocated elsewhere?
• Did Stearns step down because he was told payroll had to be cut?
• Is the recent backlash from various players (Burnes, Lauer, Cain) a result of players feeling betrayed by the Brewers not spending more to win in this competitive window?

Some more musings going through my mind now that camp is underway and the "there's still plenty of time before the season" narrative is evaporating. I was one of those posters who would say that when people were lamenting the lack of moves in Januarys past. I look back at this past offseason and believe that not only was there no intent to add payroll, I now believe the mandate was to cut salary no matter what. To do so in this competitive window with Burns and Woodruff atop the rotation is a stark departure from the way Attanasio has operated in the past. Something has changed.

I agree that payroll dropping in either 2023 or 2024 is a big mistake and doubles down on waning fan interest. Even if you have to scale back at some point, it needs to be after 2024 and the exodus of free agents.

Though I will say that with the caveat that if they're intentionally withholding some payroll in mid-February with the expectation that will be filled by an extension during spring, I wholly endorse that decision.

But you need to get the extension done if that's the case. "Well, we tried" won't be good enough.

[jerichoholicninja]

Can we merge all the ownership vitriol into one thread?

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Can we merge all the ownership vitriol into one thread?

That's a lot of merging.

[monty57]

First, I think that the late signing of McCutchen pushed them over budget last year. Attanasio probably signed off on it because he was getting a big-named player who could help out on a presumed playoff team. The opening day payroll would have been around $123.4M, and the signing of McCutchen pushed them to $131.9M, which was nearly $10M more than their previous high. It may seem sad, but signing McCutchen was the small-market version of a "go for it" signing. 

Then, ticket sales came in lower than expected. In McCalvy's article on this, Rick S. suggested that it was likely due to lower corporate sales as businesses were concerned about bringing large groups to a ballgame with Covid still a big concern going into last season. If he was correct, ticket sales should bounce back this year, but it should be understandable that the team would be cautious in projecting sales. Budgets are based on projected sales, so that is probably the biggest reason the team felt the need to cut payroll for this season. There is also a good chance that it had something to do with needing to shed some payroll (aka Hader) last season. 

Finally, to add to the lowered sales in 2022, they were probably projecting some revenues from the playoffs, which they obviously didn't get. Going over budget for a signing, and then getting substantially less revenues than expected is a solid reason to cut the budget going into this year.

Going back to $123.4 would probably put them in line with where they expected to be last year. We're currently at $114.7M projected OD payroll by Cot's. If ticket sales bounce back, they will probably have a good chunk of money available for a mid-season add, but I don't blame them for setting the budget based on lower projected ticket sales. It's the smart thing to do.

[TURBO]

So frustrating as a fan to see this current pitching window wither on the vine.  If ever there was a time to spend, this was it, but it seems that isn't going to happen, so I have accepted it and moved on.

I will never be an apologist for billionaire owners or management.  If we truly wanted to win, we would have added some more bats this offseason or in the past 3 seasons.  Instead, we will mottle our way through another season, hoping to make the playoffs, then if we don't cry foul on the system, and how small market teams just can't compete.  I mean really, just pony up within this window and see what happens.  If it didn't work out, at least we ACTUALLY tried, rather than just lipservice and signing guys like McCutchen to prove we were trying.

Again, if ever there was a time to spend some money, that time was the last 3 seasons when we knew we had top notch world series quality pitching.  We chose not to, and as long as the fans are buying the poor us routine, that will only continue.

It's hard damn work being a Brewers fan.

[brewmann04]

I think at some point you hear a few Boos directed at Mark. 

[monty57]

23 minutes ago, TURBO said:

So frustrating as a fan to see this current pitching window wither on the vine.  If ever there was a time to spend, this was it, but it seems that isn't going to happen, so I have accepted it and moved on.

I will never be an apologist for billionaire owners or management.  If we truly wanted to win, we would have added some more bats this offseason or in the past 3 seasons.  Instead, we will mottle our way through another season, hoping to make the playoffs, then if we don't cry foul on the system, and how small market teams just can't compete.  I mean really, just pony up within this window and see what happens.  If it didn't work out, at least we ACTUALLY tried, rather than just lipservice and signing guys like McCutchen to prove we were trying.

Again, if ever there was a time to spend some money, that time was the last 3 seasons when we knew we had top notch world series quality pitching.  We chose not to, and as long as the fans are buying the poor us routine, that will only continue.

It's hard damn work being a Brewers fan.

Again, the team went into the 2022 season with an opening day payroll nearly $10,000,000 higher than their previous record high. That's substantial, so I think it shows that Attanasio agreed that it was time to "pony up." 

Then ticket sales plummeted. 

It's easy to say "spend more" when it's not your money. No matter what Attanasio spends (even $10M more than the previous record), anyone can just say "it wasn't enough, it should have been more." 

The reality is that businesses have budgets based on real numbers. Those numbers show that it makes a lot of sense to cut budget this year until they can see if ticket sales bounce back and are able to be certain that they will receive the promised payments from Bally's as they fight off bankruptcy.

[MVP2110]

Yea it's hard to say Mark A didn't spend extra last year when he raised the payroll by about 10 mil over their previous record amount. I'm not sure how high people expected Mark A to go

[MrTPlush]

48 minutes ago, monty57 said:

First, I think that the late signing of McCutchen pushed them over budget last year. Attanasio probably signed off on it because he was getting a big-named player who could help out on a presumed playoff team. The opening day payroll would have been around $123.4M, and the signing of McCutchen pushed them to $131.9M, which was nearly $10M more than their previous high. It may seem sad, but signing McCutchen was the small-market version of a "go for it" signing. 

Then, ticket sales came in lower than expected. In McCalvy's article on this, Rick S. suggested that it was likely due to lower corporate sales as businesses were concerned about bringing large groups to a ballgame with Covid still a big concern going into last season. If he was correct, ticket sales should bounce back this year, but it should be understandable that the team would be cautious in projecting sales. Budgets are based on projected sales, so that is probably the biggest reason the team felt the need to cut payroll for this season. There is also a good chance that it had something to do with needing to shed some payroll (aka Hader) last season. 

Finally, to add to the lowered sales in 2022, they were probably projecting some revenues from the playoffs, which they obviously didn't get. Going over budget for a signing, and then getting substantially less revenues than expected is a solid reason to cut the budget going into this year.

Going back to $123.4 would probably put them in line with where they expected to be last year. We're currently at $114.7M projected OD payroll by Cot's. If ticket sales bounce back, they will probably have a good chunk of money available for a mid-season add, but I don't blame them for setting the budget based on lower projected ticket sales. It's the smart thing to do.

I read this and thought to myself, there is no point wasting your time putting together a well thought out post with data. The people you are directly it at probably thought they could have spent $50mil more last year. Thus, even that $132mil was a joke to them. 

 

[sveumrules]

20 hours ago, monty57 said:

It may seem sad, but signing McCutchen was the small-market version of a "go for it" signing. 

Yup. Like it or not, the franchise record OD payrolls in 2019 and 2022 are what the Brewers going "all in" looks like.

On the bright side, we won the division in 2018 with a $91M OD payroll and in 2021 with a $99M OD payroll.

Brewers ranking 6th in wins over the last five years or 8th in wins over the last fifteen is a pretty strong indicator to me that they haven't been too limited by whatever perceived underspending there may have been.

[sveumrules]

52 minutes ago, TURBO said:

It's hard damn work being a Brewers fan.

I find it quite easy and enjoyable being a Brewers fan, personally.

[Joseph Zarr]

19 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

I find it quite easy and enjoyable being a Brewers fan, personally.

Thank you for saying this. I will rarely complain about people complaining or airing grievances as I myself was on that side of the fence for way too long 😂 Given my extremely physical workload on my own farm out this way, I actually (gasps) tune into this website, all the affiliate games, and the occasional Crew game online because it brings me actual unfettered enjoyment and a very welcome reprieve from my own grind. I think the ongoing transition to the Matt Arnold era has been extremely exciting. 

 

Maybe this says more about how repetitive and routine-oriented or boring my own life is? Anyhow, I'm getting older by the day and sorer by the hour. And, well, I love baseball and the Brewers.

[monty57]

3 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Yup. Like it or not, the franchise record OD payrolls in 2019 and 2022 are what the Brewers going "all in" looks like.

On the bright side, we won the division in 2018 with a $91M OD payroll and in 2021 with a $99M OD payroll.

Brewers ranking 6th in wins over the last five years of 8th in wins over the last fifteen is a pretty strong indicator to me that they haven't been too limited by whatever perceived underspending there may have been.

I think that shows the value of a good owner. Attanasio bought the Brewers prior to the 2005 season. They were coming off of 67, 68 and 56 win seasons, and hadn't had a .500 or better season since 1992.

In 2005, the team went 81-81, and they have only had seven (including the playoff 2020 season) losing records in the 18 years Attanasio has been the primary owner. Prior to Attanasio, the Brewers had two playoff appearances from 1969 (Pilots) to 2004. Since Attanasio bought the team, they have made the playoffs six times (33% playoff rate). All this with the decided financial disadvantage that small-market teams live with.

Contrary to popular belief, the owner is the most important person in sports. He or she hires the entire management staff, which performs all of the tasks necessary to put a team on the field. Anyone can get lucky in the short-term, but over the long-haul, well managed teams will win more than poorly managed teams. I've had some complaints about Attanasio over the years, but he has proven to be a good owner who is focused on putting a good product on the field.

Fans have every right to boo whoever they choose, but anyone who boos Attanasio is pretty short-sighted.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Brewers' current contract with Ballys to broadcast their games - ~$34M annually without having to sell a ticket.

Bally's is about to go bankrupt, putting into question what the Brewers are going to receive for broadcast rights and when.

 

Current Brewer payroll - about $110M.  2022 Brewer payroll - about $135M, difference of around $25M

Gee I wonder why their payroll is lower.

[TURBO]

Ok, I'm outnumbered.  I'll just crawl back into my corner and agree with the rest of you, even though imo, if he wanted to spend more, he could.  Hell, he even admitted it last year, but according to him, there were no players available that he wanted to spend it on.

[tmwiese55]

Well yea of course he could. He could choose to lose money (or lose more money) every year in the name of winning/trying.  He could do that, and other owners do do it.   But is it right (lack of better word) for us to expect owners to lose tens of millions each year?   And as pointed out, the route they've taken has been winning. One could make an argument being smart and not getting into crappy long term deals is actually helping them win more in the long term. 

And while of course he's stupid rich, he's on the lower end of franchise owner rich so taking huge losses every year like San Diego is likely going to be doing seems a lot to ask (especially since he's not the full owner and has the other brewers owners to answer to).

I would generally agree the team isn't dumb and knows this was a great window for them and would've been willing to spend if the right deals presented themselves (GRandal, Moose types even if at 2-3 year deals) but the market the last couple years has gone back to being nutso.  There really aren't many deals out there from the last two offseasons for the proverbial "needle movers" that you'd look at it and think we could realistically expect them to make and/or that we don't expect to be bad deals long term. 

Top of my head, being paid to take on Arenado might be the main one. 

[BlightyBrew]

Has anyone heard from our owner?  Any comment on the Burnes and payroll?  Is he in Arizona?  Or is he in LA? Norwich?

I think he is probably sitting around challenging himself to have a bite of the apple.

[brewcrewdue80]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:33 PM, TURBO said:

Ok, I'm outnumbered.  I'll just crawl back into my corner and agree with the rest of you, even though imo, if he wanted to spend more, he could.  Hell, he even admitted it last year, but according to him, there were no players available that he wanted to spend it on.

This always comes back to what player signing in this offseason would you want the team to have done to improve it?  

Sometimes I see moves like, "I would have done that FA signing."  While I look at the signing relieved it wasn't Milwaukee.  We got 2 good years from the Cain signing. Wondering if we'll get any good years from the Yelich extension. I'd probably want to be a little gun shy on the next big investment as it could be a third in a row failure. Not to mention McCutchen and JBJ failures on return.

There's also the fact that say they brought someone in on a $20s M a year deal. Based on the payroll history line, that signing immediately ends any potential extension with any player fans wish to see extended. As it stands almost none here believe the team could extend Burnes, Woodruff, or Adames. That's with where the current&future payroll stands stopping it from happening.  

 

As to the topic. I wouldnt blame Mark A.&co towards setting up to sell the team. Evers gets that funding to keep the team here 20years supposedly to fix and maintain the Stadium. Gotta be a high side time for selling and ridding what headache that will be the future Stadium upkeep/new Stadium request.

Chourio's success getting here and showing the hype is real is where I'd honestly think you'll see a decision on selling. You want the buyers coming in to a good situation being fans filling the seats. Maybe Mark missed with Yelich.