Club wins Burnes' arbitration case (source)

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, MVP2110 said:

The payroll has gone down by roughly the same amount they were supposed to get from Ballys this year. I don't think that's a coincidence 

Yes, but Mark A is supposed to just make a few withdrawals from his offshore accounts to cover payroll.

[StearnsFTW]

17 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

I think Houser called the process "brutal," in the aftermath of his loss at hearing in '22. Hader called the system outdated when he lost his hearing. 

Chase Anderson said  "it was somewhat awkward to sit in the hearing room  and listen to the club make its case for the lower figure submitted" then “You just sit there and kind of wear it."

Corey Hart said he had some trepidation entering the hearing because he feared getting taken apart by the club when it presented its case. But he said it wasn't as ugly as he anticipated.

"It wasn't as bad as I thought," he said. "You hear a lot of horror stories, that you won't like your team after it's done. I talked with (assistant GM) Gord (Ash) before the hearing and told him there would be no hard feelings, that I wasn't going to be mad if I lost"

All of which seem like reasonable comments.  Burnes went way further than any of those.

[Jake McKibbin]

3 minutes ago, StearnsFTW said:

All of which seem like reasonable comments.  Burnes went way further than any of those.

I think they all sound reasonable. Like Hader was correct in people using saves to judge his worth

Burnes is a Cy Young winner, but he had an ERA of 3 last season, a lot of home runs and had a period of form where he really struggled, I'd imagine the case is much more compelling if he gets numbers closer to his expected stats and FIP

In the end the Brewers want to keep prices lower in arbitration to stop new benchmarks being set, I'm very curious what numbers they offered him, but aside from that, did he expect them to go in and say "well he should have this money, here you go" when payroll managing is so important to them? Hell even Steve Cohen is doing this!

So yeah I also think you need a tough skin, because they'll say things to help their case, not necessarily the truth but an exaggeration of it for sure. Everyone knows this happens. Sorry, but yeah Arbitration isn't how much an organisation values you at all

 

[bobahunter]

I think Corbin's reaction is concerning. Because this is seemingly starting to become a trend. Over the last few years we have had multiple players express that they have issues with upper management. Started with Cain, then Hader, which spilled over into the club house where we heard from Williams and Lauer about their concerns, and now Corbin. Whether they are just overpaid malcontents airing dirty laundry to make themselves look good or are genuinely concerned for the direction of the organization, the fact is they all felt upset enough to speak up. I have a hard time believing that every one of these can be cast aside as just players whining. It might be somewhere in between.

To me these incidents point to a group in upper management that is severely lacking in human relations.  I get the perception that players are just numbers on a sheet. It's not Corbin Burnes, it's Pitcher 1 - 12-8/2.94 ERA/243 SO, but he faltered a bit down the stretch so you get $X according to the spreadsheet. The math says you might be right but the court of public perception says you didn't handle this right. The past instances have all led to this current development where a majority of the common fanbase think the organization is cheap. Whether right or wrong, that is how they're viewed.

[Jopal78]

2 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

It actually happens a ton during internal performance review discussions by upper management.  Then the employee's manager has a meeting with the employee to discuss results of any position/raise/bonus decision.  Not an apples to apples comparison because not all workplace scenarios are the same as a professional athlete making life changing money for most of us every season (shocking, I know), but this sort of thing happens all the time.

But it's not similar at all.  An Arbitration is ostensibly litigation in a forum other than a Courthouse. There is a panel of arbitrators instead of a Judge, and they review the uncontested facts, hear arguments and make a decision between salary A and salary B. Each participant in the arbitration brings a lawyer to argue why the panel should pick the number their client put forth. Until recently, the person who handled the Brewers arbitrations was Teddy Werner... a guy who went to college at Yale, then Duke Law School. 

The average worker doesn't bring a lawyer to his annual review.  Burnes without a doubt was represented by a lawyer. If his lawyer or agency didn't prepare him for what he was likely going to hear, then they did a poor job for him. Obviously, since the Brewers won the hearing, their attorneys were more persuasive than Burnes. Maybe his ire should be directed at his agency and lawyers. 

Let's not forget the Brewers gave him a huge raise, it just wasn't as large as he wanted, and he has hurt feelings having listened to his opponents arguments. More probably true than not, he didn't add his own opinion at the hearing as to his worth, nor was his attendance likely mandatory. Perhaps he should have skipped it all together if his feelings were going to be hurt in a contentious hearing.

The process is what MLB and the Union agreed to. Bottom line, Burnes, whining about 600K when he's got a 10+ million dollar guarantee is incredibly poor optics on his part.

 

[Jopal78]

5 minutes ago, bobahunter said:

I think Corbin's reaction is concerning. Because this is seemingly starting to become a trend. Over the last few years we have had multiple players express that they have issues with upper management. Started with Cain, then Hader, which spilled over into the club house where we heard from Williams and Lauer about their concerns, and now Corbin. Whether they are just overpaid malcontents airing dirty laundry to make themselves look good or are genuinely concerned for the direction of the organization, the fact is they all felt upset enough to speak up. I have a hard time believing that every one of these can be cast aside as just players whining. It might be somewhere in between.

To me these incidents point to a group in upper management that is severely lacking in human relations.  I get the perception that players are just numbers on a sheet. It's not Corbin Burnes, it's Pitcher 1 - 12-8/2.94 ERA/243 SO, but he faltered a bit down the stretch so you get $X according to the spreadsheet. The math says you might be right but the court of public perception says you didn't handle this right. The past instances have all led to this current development where a majority of the common fanbase think the organization is cheap. Whether right or wrong, that is how they're viewed.

No, Oakland is cheap. The Milwaukee Brewers have the worst media market in MLB, they run the team off the revenue the market provides. The owner is already beyond rich from the world of finance. He certainly doesn't need to run the team on the cheap in order to have the money for the Italian Villa/French Winery, etc. he always wanted. 

Players can grouse about the organization all they want, I would recommend you take all their comments with a grain of salt, because all of those players above are not playing for free or taking a steep discount because they like the Brewers. They're all out to make as much money from baseball as they can and where they ply their trade is really secondary. 

[brewmann04]

All in All Corbin time here is short and Hopefully we get a nice package for  him?

wonder what going to happen with Willy thinking they might extend Woody

[KeithStone53151]

I'm a bit late to the party on this. I read through a fair amount of the comments. I don't think it was bad on the Brewers to go to arbitration. It does sound like they did a little too much dunking on Burnes. I don't think Burnes is lying or embellishing in any way. The 750k the Brewers saved is not worth the negative PR they are getting right now. This type of reputation might be a deciding factor down the line for certain free agents. And it's just principally the wrong way to carry yourself and your organization. You can go into this hearing objectively with a justification like "we used this comparable with this much of an increase" vs "look how bad Burnes was after the all star break, he's the reason we missed the playoffs". It's honestly a gross thing to say, who knows what else was said. So much of this stuff is based off precedent anyways, that certainly carries more weight than dunking on his second half performance.

[Simba2020]

Seems like Burnes ask was a reasonable one in the first place. Bieber does seem like an excellent comp and he received a 67% increase in salary. Burnes was asking for a 65% increase in salary.

In addition, when compared to other elite pitchers in their second year of arbitration like Bieber, deGrom, Cole, Castillo, etc., his raise is easily the lowest on a percentage basis.

[brewmann04]

for the Money they fought over did not think this was a good PR move for the Brewers

[bobahunter]

17 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

No, Oakland is cheap. The Milwaukee Brewers have the worst media market in MLB, they run the team off the revenue the market provides. The owner is already beyond rich from the world of finance. He certainly doesn't need to run the team on the cheap in order to have the money for the Italian Villa/French Winery, etc. he always wanted. 

Players can grouse about the organization all they want, I would recommend you take all their comments with a grain of salt, because all of those players above are not playing for free or taking a steep discount because they like the Brewers. They're all out to make as much money from baseball as they can and where they ply their trade is really secondary. 

I get all that. The team has constraints and seemingly does what it can as far as what their budget allows. But I think it falls somewhere in the middle of ownership is maxed out and has done everything it possibly can and the players just wanting every penny they can get. Are there cheap/greedy owners? Of course. Are there players just in it for the money? Of course. But there are also some owners who love the game and will do more than is asked to see the team win. There are also players that love where they play and would take less money to stay where they want to be.

I guess my last point was that outside of this board, it seems like a majority of the fans think the Brewers are cheap. Whether right or wrong, that is the common public perception and it has been since before Mark A bought the team. This is not good for PR and can have adverse effects on attendance.

[areacodes]

43 minutes ago, Simba2020 said:

Seems like Burnes ask was a reasonable one in the first place. Bieber does seem like an excellent comp and he received a 67% increase in salary. Burnes was asking for a 65% increase in salary.

In addition, when compared to other elite pitchers in their second year of arbitration like Bieber, deGrom, Cole, Castillo, etc., his raise is easily the lowest on a percentage basis.

Well, the panel obviously thought that the Brewers number was more reasonable than what Burnes was asking for even when factoring in the comps/increases to other players you mentioned.

[areacodes]

13 minutes ago, bobahunter said:

I guess my last point was that outside of this board, it seems like a majority of the fans think the Brewers are cheap. Whether right or wrong, that is the common public perception and it has been since before Mark A bought the team. This is not good for PR and can have adverse effects on attendance.

You say the Brewers have been considered cheap since before Attanasio bought the team (and they definitely were under the Selig’s later tenure) but has that really had a huge impact on attendance up to this point? I looked at the last 10 years or so and they’ve been somewhere between 7th and 16th in average attendance, so it doesn’t seem to be having a major impact up to this point - why would it start now? Winning games seems to be a bigger factor in attendance and not any type of perceived cheapness.

[bobahunter]

10 minutes ago, areacodes said:

You say the Brewers have been considered cheap since before Attanasio bought the team (and they definitely were under the Selig’s later tenure) but has that really had a huge impact on attendance up to this point? I looked at the last 10 years or so and they’ve been somewhere between 7th and 16th in average attendance, so it doesn’t seem to be having a major impact up to this point - why would it start now? Winning games seems to be a bigger factor in attendance and not any type of perceived cheapness.

Maybe not. But couldn't attendance be higher as well? Was attendance higher in the beginning of the year after they signed Moose/Grandal/Cain versus what we'll see this year? Probably hard to quantify. Just saying that going into a season with things like this hanging over the organization can curb enthusiasm and tickets might not pick until the team starts winning. More than in a normal year.

[PlayerHader]

On 2/16/2023 at 2:49 PM, wibadgers23 said:

I really don't care what some stupid judge decides.  Burnes could have gotten 3X the amount on the open market so yes, I would say his requested amount was more than reasonable.

I sometimes like to disregard the use of facts, context, and reason in arguments, too…

[PlayerHader]

19 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Probably because he thought he could get the Brewers there by filing for $10.75. You know, basic negotiation...

So the Brewers clearly file at what they think the collectively bargained system has set for players, and the player pursues a number they know to be higher than they’re likely to get, and the team is in the wrong???

[nate82]

15 hours ago, Axman59 said:

Very logical. But tell me, when is the last time you were s*** on by your employer at an arbitration hearing?

Every year at the end of the year.  While not an arbitration hearing corporate America has this year end review of what you have done and what you need to improve on.  It can get really bad at times and people who have big egos or can't take criticism have absolute meltdowns.  This also sets your pay for the next year every manager I have gone into a year end meeting will say things like I really like you and everything you do but I have to tear into you and why you are not getting the highest rating.  This also impacts your raise and/or bonus. 

[owbc]

29 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Every year at the end of the year.  While not an arbitration hearing corporate America has this year end review of what you have done and what you need to improve on.  It can get really bad at times and people who have big egos or can't take criticism have absolute meltdowns.  This also sets your pay for the next year every manager I have gone into a year end meeting will say things like I really like you and everything you do but I have to tear into you and why you are not getting the highest rating.  This also impacts your raise and/or bonus. 

I think the corporate metaphor is that the Brewers just blamed one of their top performers for the team missing expectations because he didn't win back-to-back Cy Young awards. 

If your company craps on its high performers in performance reviews and doesn't make them feel appreciated...then as soon as the talent has the leverage to move on you can kiss it goodbye. Which is what will be happening with Burnes. 

None of it really matters though...sometimes your high performers might look at the current state of your company and its budget and come to their own conclusions about what their next career move should be. 

 

[Brewcrew82]

25 minutes ago, PlayerHader said:

So the Brewers clearly file at what they think the collectively bargained system has set for players, and the player pursues a number they know to be higher than they’re likely to get, and the team is in the wrong???

He seemingly wanted the same increase from Arb 1 to Arb 2 that Shane Bieber got in January at 10.56 Mil. Far from unreasonable, and it's basic negotiating strategy to start higher than your actual asking price. 

But I don't think the team is in the wrong for holding firm at their price. Where they crossed the line, if it is indeed true, is by trying to assert that Burnes was at the "forefront" of why the team missed the playoffs. Then, when you take into account recent public comments from other players such as Hader, Lauer, Williams, Cain, etc., it becomes part of a concerning pattern from this FO...

[areacodes]

It appears a common theme that many who are crapping on the Brewers about this has been to take Burnes’ comments about being told he was at the “forefront” of reasons we didn’t make the playoffs as the gospel truth.

It seems to me, it is just as likely (or even more likely) he’s exaggerating these claims or at least not articulating them in the same manner as what happened during the hearing.

Heck, when talking to McCalvy he uses perspires instead of transpires when talking about the relationship being hurt and we’re expecting him to have nailed exactly what was said about his role in missing the playoffs?

[KeithStone53151]

32 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

He seemingly wanted the same increase from Arb 1 to Arb 2 that Shane Bieber got in January at 10.56 Mil. Far from unreasonable, and it's basic negotiating strategy to start higher than your actual asking price. 

But I don't think the team is in the wrong for holding firm at their price. Where they crossed the line, if it is indeed true, is by trying to assert that Burnes was at the "forefront" of why the team missed the playoffs. Then, when you take into account recent public comments from other players such as Hader, Lauer, Williams, Cain, etc., it becomes part of a concerning pattern from this FO...

Agreed. Burnes asking for the same increase as Bieber is a downright reasonable ask in my opinion, it's probably more than reasonable as he's been at least a bit better over the last 2 years combined.

I'm a bit taken back by some of the people defending the Brewers here. Imagine more or less carrying a pathetic offense to the brink of the post season and in your arbitration hearing, apparently Corbin it's your fault the Brewers didn't make the post season. Let me ask, where is this squad without Corbin? There'd be a heck of a lot more discussion on these forums about what top 10 talent we might be getting in the draft this year. Brewers FO are straight clowns.

[Brewcrew82]

23 minutes ago, areacodes said:

It appears a common theme that many who are crapping on the Brewers about this has been to take Burnes’ comments about being told he was at the “forefront” of reasons we didn’t make the playoffs as the gospel truth.

It seems to me, it is just as likely (or even more likely) he’s exaggerating these claims or at least not articulating them in the same manner as what happened during the hearing.

Heck, when talking to McCalvy he uses perspires instead of transpires when talking about the relationship being hurt and we’re expecting him to have nailed exactly what was said about his role in missing the playoffs?

It's not just Burnes, though. It's about a growing pattern of complaints about management's relations with players, franchise cornerstones no less. That's what's most concerning from my perspective. The team has lost some goodwill amongst the players and the fanbase in recent months, and needs to work to restore that. Winning will obviously go a long ways, but trading your all-star reliever while you're in first place or pissing off arguably the most dominant pitcher in franchise history over 750k won't. 

[sveumrules]

Just now, KeithStone53151 said:

Imagine more or less carrying a pathetic offense to the brink of the post season

The Brewers offense was 10th in runs scored and 8th in WAR.

The Brewers pitching was 16th in runs allowed and 14th in rWAR.

The above average offense wasn't quite enough to carry our average pitching to the postseason.

Nothing pathetic about any of that, just baseball happening.

[KeithStone53151]

20 minutes ago, areacodes said:

It appears a common theme that many who are crapping on the Brewers about this has been to take Burnes’ comments about being told he was at the “forefront” of reasons we didn’t make the playoffs as the gospel truth.

It seems to me, it is just as likely (or even more likely) he’s exaggerating these claims or at least not articulating them in the same manner as what happened during the hearing.

It doesn't seem likely he simply made up this claim. And couple this with comments from other recent Brewers...very likely to be accurate.

[KeithStone53151]

8 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

The Brewers offense was 10th in runs scored and 8th in WAR.

The Brewers pitching was 16th in runs allowed and 14th in rWAR.

The above average offense wasn't quite enough to carry our average pitching to the postseason.

Nothing pathetic about any of that, just baseball happening.

Imagine where the Brewers pitching would be if you plugged Jason Alexander/Ethan Small/whoever for Burnes 200+ innings of sub 3 era. I promise you it wouldn't be 16th, or 17th, or 18th, or 19th........

It's also tough to imagine the Brewers truly 10th in runs, we had 1 guy with over 800 OPS that had over 100 AB...and that was Hunter Renfroe who blew that number out of the water with his massive 807 OPS. The entire lineup was littered with sub 240 hitters except one or two guys.