Club wins Burnes' arbitration case (source)

[KeithStone53151]

On 2/17/2023 at 10:20 PM, PlayerHader said:

I’m taken aback by fans who think the Brewers should pay players more than the current system says they need to. If Corbin Burnes wanted more money than the arb system dictates, he needs to commit to more years. That’s how it works in the current system. Why should teams, particularly those who don’t have a shot at elite talent once they are FAs, pay  more?

Nobody said that, but nice try shifting the argument to something most people aren't arguing. As you tagged me, I made clear I have no problem with the fact this went to arbitration. I believe Burnes case was better based on my limited knowledge, but it's certainly not a slam dunk. How you win in this case matters, and I'm disappointed the Brewers stooped to the level they did to win 750k.

[KeithStone53151]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:09 PM, 82brewcrew82 said:

I think, in his own mind, that Corbin believes he isn't making it up.  Having said that we all know there are three sides to every story and we only have one.  I also think that this is how arbitration works and and has thousands of times but very few open their yap about it.  Every year teams go go arbitration with players over a couple hundred thousand dollars and most can accept the process with out airing it to the media.

I'm not for the owners or the players but what Corbin did wasn't productive in any way and not a good look for him even if he is right.

I will agree that Burnes airing his grievances wasn't productive and probably wasn't the best option. I'll also add, since Burnes was drafted, I haven't heard him make a single negative comment about the organization until now. Now he's making comments with a sentiment that is backed by quite a few former Brewers. Those things give his comments a lot of credibility with me.

[KeithStone53151]

On 2/19/2023 at 10:34 AM, sveumrules said:

Saw on MLBTR today that Max Fried reported “no anger, animosity, or anything” after losing his Arby’s hearing.

You’d think he’d be extra mad since the Braves have handed out $735M in pre-FA extensions to Olson, Riley, Acuna, Albies, Murphy, Strider and Harris II over the last few years without cutting him in on the action, but nah. 

More like Max Chill.

Well the Braves made the postseason, so their FO didn't have that card in their back pocket.

[MrTPlush]

4 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Nobody said that, but nice try shifting the argument to something most people aren't arguing. As you tagged me, I made clear I have no problem with the fact this went to arbitration. I believe Burnes case was better based on my limited knowledge, but it's certainly not a slam dunk. How you win in this case matters, and I'm disappointed the Brewers stooped to the level they did to win 750k.

Did they post the transcripts for the arbitration hearing? Did the team make some explanation? I don’t think Corbin Burnes comments should really be taken as gospel, especially when he was paraphrasing his take on what their comments meant/were inferring.

He also said the Brewers offer was terrible (clearly it wasn’t) and that the two-year deal was also a joke (I highly doubt it).

It’s more likely Burnes is like the rest of the upset small majority that are sensitive, mad at the arbitration system from the get-go, and/or lack a basic understanding of how these things play out.

[KeithStone53151]

16 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Did they post the transcripts for the arbitration hearing? Did the team make some explanation? I don’t think Corbin Burnes comments should really be taken as gospel, especially when he was paraphrasing his take on what their comments meant/were inferring.

He also said the Brewers offer was terrible (clearly it wasn’t) and that the two-year deal was also a joke (I highly doubt it).

It’s more likely Burnes is like the rest of the upset small majority that are sensitive, mad at the arbitration system from the get-go, and/or lack a basic understanding of how these things play out.

Yes, they posted transcripts. The transcript said "Tplush stop making silly comments, of course they didn't post the transcripts".

I'm going to believe that Corbin Burnes didn't pull that comment out of thin air, feel free to continue to believe that he did if you'd like. Maybe he paraphrased, but I also struggle with how the Brewers could have framed in a non-negative/trashy manner that Burnes performance helped cost the Brewers a postseason run. There's not really a good way to say that, especially to the guy that was the literal best player on the team last year. You also have a handful of notable former Brewers that have similar hard feelings, Hader came out of a hearing and all of a sudden was adamantly a 1 inning pitcher. Coincidence? Or maybe the fireman role doesn't get as much in arbitration so he was adamant about being a 1 inning closer only.

I suspect Burnes does have a pretty decent understanding of the process as he came up with a pretty good/reasonable comp in Bieber for what his increase should be. He probably was thinking "there's no way my increase should be less than this guy" considering he's been the clear better pitcher the last 2 combined years. I suspect him thinking the offers were poor reflect that.

As much as his comments weren't a very good strategy play for him going forward, as a fan I applaud him for calling out bad behavior. Otherwise the Brewers can more or less get away with it and avoid the public scrutiny they deserve.

[CheeseheadInQC]

12 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

I'm going to believe that Corbin Burnes didn't pull that comment out of thin air, feel free to continue to believe that he did if you'd like. Maybe he paraphrased, but I also struggle with how the Brewers could have framed in a non-negative/trashy manner that Burnes performance helped cost the Brewers a postseason run.

A simple, factual statement like, “He didn’t pitch his best during the stretch run,” could fall under the topic Burnes mentioned but I don’t think it would be worthy of criticizing the Brewers for. This is one of those cases where I don’t feel comfortable criticizing either the Brewers or Burnes because I just don’t think we have enough facts to justify it.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'm guessing Burnes didn't like the Brewers' two year offer to buy out arbitration, because it was probably less than the combined total of the two amounts he and his agent had planned on taking to arbitration - simple as that.

He also commented about the whirlwind travel schedule attending his own arbitration hearing led him on before scrambling back to Spring Training, including how it hampered his valentines day celebration with his wife - pretty sure he could've avoided most of that jet lag and time in airports by skipping your hearing and letting his representatives present on his behalf if it meant that much.

I think all the effort and logistics for Burnes to take this all the way to arbitration probably wound up feeling like a frustrating waste of time once he found out they lost the hearing, and I think that showed out in his comments about the process last week.  At the end of the day it's quibbling over about $700K of career earnings (a gap that was likely much smaller than that when the two sides were negotiating his 2023 salary up to the arbitration deadline) that will likely add up over $250M, so it's obvious the frustration is largely channeled through the players' union's drive to increase arbitration precedent whenever possible, even if it's incremental.

 

[LouisEly]

2 hours ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Nobody said that, but nice try shifting the argument to something most people aren't arguing. As you tagged me, I made clear I have no problem with the fact this went to arbitration. I believe Burnes case was better based on my limited knowledge, but it's certainly not a slam dunk. How you win in this case matters, and I'm disappointed the Brewers stooped to the level they did to win 750k.

So every team should give every good player whatever the player wants?  Where does it end then?  What is the dividing line at which teams should give the player what the player wants versus go to arbitration?  Which players should teams go to arbitration with and which players shouldn't they go to arbitration with?

[MrTPlush]

I mean anything the Brewers said was going to be negative from Burnes POV and something he could make out to be more than it is.

If a player wants to go challenge the team over a few hundred thousand dollars, you get to hear about your shortcoming and limitations. What else would one reasonably expect to hear?

His comment is obviously directed at something, but we don’t know what it was. Team isn’t going to create drama talking to the media so Burnes knows there will be no clarification or rebuttal.

[82brewcrew82]

3 hours ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Yes, they posted transcripts. The transcript said "Tplush stop making silly comments, of course they didn't post the transcripts".

I'm going to believe that Corbin Burnes didn't pull that comment out of thin air, feel free to continue to believe that he did if you'd like. Maybe he paraphrased, but I also struggle with how the Brewers could have framed in a non-negative/trashy manner that Burnes performance helped cost the Brewers a postseason run. There's not really a good way to say that, especially to the guy that was the literal best player on the team last year. You also have a handful of notable former Brewers that have similar hard feelings, Hader came out of a hearing and all of a sudden was adamantly a 1 inning pitcher. Coincidence? Or maybe the fireman role doesn't get as much in arbitration so he was adamant about being a 1 inning closer only.

I suspect Burnes does have a pretty decent understanding of the process as he came up with a pretty good/reasonable comp in Bieber for what his increase should be. He probably was thinking "there's no way my increase should be less than this guy" considering he's been the clear better pitcher the last 2 combined years. I suspect him thinking the offers were poor reflect that.

As much as his comments weren't a very good strategy play for him going forward, as a fan I applaud him for calling out bad behavior. Otherwise the Brewers can more or less get away with it and avoid the public scrutiny they deserve.

And you can continue to believe that what Corbin had to say is the only perspective on the situation.  Every arbitration hearing is pretty brutal and that isn't a secret.  Yet very few air their dirty laundry to the media like he did.  The reality is that you have no idea whether the Brewers acted with "bad behavior" or not relative to any other arbitration hearing.  A few malcontent players made some vague comments yet the majority of the players that have been rostered in recent years make no such comments.  Believe what you like but there are plausible alternatives here.

[brewcrewdue80]

5 hours ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Yes, they posted transcripts. The transcript said "Tplush stop making silly comments, of course they didn't post the transcripts".

I'm going to believe that Corbin Burnes didn't pull that comment out of thin air, feel free to continue to believe that he did if you'd like. Maybe he paraphrased, but I also struggle with how the Brewers could have framed in a non-negative/trashy manner that Burnes performance helped cost the Brewers a postseason run. There's not really a good way to say that, especially to the guy that was the literal best player on the team last year. You also have a handful of notable former Brewers that have similar hard feelings, Hader came out of a hearing and all of a sudden was adamantly a 1 inning pitcher. Coincidence? Or maybe the fireman role doesn't get as much in arbitration so he was adamant about being a 1 inning closer only.

I suspect Burnes does have a pretty decent understanding of the process as he came up with a pretty good/reasonable comp in Bieber for what his increase should be. He probably was thinking "there's no way my increase should be less than this guy" considering he's been the clear better pitcher the last 2 combined years. I suspect him thinking the offers were poor reflect that.

As much as his comments weren't a very good strategy play for him going forward, as a fan I applaud him for calling out bad behavior. Otherwise the Brewers can more or less get away with it and avoid the public scrutiny they deserve.

The part on Bieber.  Did Burnes know what Bieber increase was?  The story broke the same day figures needed to be submitted at 430pm that day.  If he knew it was last minute funding out. It is is interesting going to that article and the MLBTR guy had predicted 10.7M vs what Bieber settled at.  Interesting that the number was just about exact what Burnes signed for.  

I wonder where the price point in the Arbitrators minds were where they'd have sided with Burnes. That imo needs to be shared. Say it was 10.7M.  10.65M. 10.55M.  Just alert and make aware to the Players and clubs both what the line would be. Then a player doesn't submit too high an ask, and a club submits something closer to that line. 

 

[owbc]

5 hours ago, LouisEly said:

So every team should give every good player whatever the player wants?  Where does it end then?  What is the dividing line at which teams should give the player what the player wants versus go to arbitration?  Which players should teams go to arbitration with and which players shouldn't they go to arbitration with?

I think we might be missing the forest for the trees. 

To me it boils down to: You don’t want to have a reputation for ticking off your star players. 

We know the Hader trade did not go over well in the clubhouse and we know Burnes isn’t happy with whatever was said during that arbitration hearing. What was actually said is irrelevant to the problem that has been created here. 

This whole situation is just more evidence for why players don’t give anything other than boring, canned answers to the media. Burnes didn’t do himself any favors by saying what he did, maybe we’ll all forget about it but I have a feeling it will resurface when he has a bad outing this year. 
 

 

[Jake McKibbin]

11 hours ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Going to baseball savant and dropping a few advanced analytics doesn't change the fact that replace Burnes with the next best guy severely damages the pitching numbers.

This is a case of, winning is not necessarily the most important thing for the Brewers. Try to win, but how you win absolutely matters. It's better to lose than stoop to the level the Brewers are alleged to have stooped to win.

Given the home run ball last season hitting him hard, can you imagine the damage he'll do in a pitcher friendly park? Stringing consecutive hits against him seems almost impossible

[PlayerHader]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:49 PM, homer said:

to play devil's advocate for a second, Attanasio is worth like 700 million. Why cant he just pony up another 700K?

 

Because that would be more detrimental than beneficial to the Brewers long-term.

[PlayerHader]

14 hours ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Nobody said that, but nice try shifting the argument to something most people aren't arguing. As you tagged me, I made clear I have no problem with the fact this went to arbitration. I believe Burnes case was better based on my limited knowledge, but it's certainly not a slam dunk. How you win in this case matters, and I'm disappointed the Brewers stooped to the level they did to win 750k.

What do you mean nobody said that? Anybody saying the Brewers should have not haggled over the 3/4 million $ are saying that they should just pay more than the current system dictates players are to be paid.

 And we know from Burnes’s taking some details public that the Brewers did offer a higher number during negotiations. They only returned to what they believed that arb system number was when an agreement wasn’t made. Again, that’s the smart move to incentivize players to come to agreement in the future. They’re going to get their best offer through negotiations. If you choose to play hardball…Well, There’s no crying in baseball 

[MVP2110]

Some really interesting comments on today's Effectively Wild podcast by Todd Rosiak regarding the Burnes arb case. Stated that he had it on good authority that Burnes embellished quite a bit what the Brewers argument during the hearing was and that Burnes knew how the fan base felt about the ownership so he was very calculated in what he said 

[KeithStone53151]

14 hours ago, LouisEly said:

So every team should give every good player whatever the player wants?  Where does it end then?  What is the dividing line at which teams should give the player what the player wants versus go to arbitration?  Which players should teams go to arbitration with and which players shouldn't they go to arbitration with?

Yes, I said every team should give every good player what they want. You're quoting skills are on point today. Think about this like a Democrat or Republican primary election. Don't go negative, you're on the same team and will be on the same team once the primary is done. It's better to lose than go super negative and win.

[KeithStone53151]

13 hours ago, 82brewcrew82 said:

And you can continue to believe that what Corbin had to say is the only perspective on the situation.  Every arbitration hearing is pretty brutal and that isn't a secret.  Yet very few air their dirty laundry to the media like he did.  The reality is that you have no idea whether the Brewers acted with "bad behavior" or not relative to any other arbitration hearing.  A few malcontent players made some vague comments yet the majority of the players that have been rostered in recent years make no such comments.  Believe what you like but there are plausible alternatives here.

The majority of players don't ever go to arbitration. It seems like the majority of good Brewers players that went to arbitration recently were the ones that had similar negative experiences as Burnes did. Another user noted that Max Fried lost his arbitration and had no hard feelings. Maybe he's just better at not being bothered, or maybe the Braves took the high road and weren't willing to upset the player by trashing him in the hearing.

[KeithStone53151]

2 hours ago, PlayerHader said:

What do you mean nobody said that? Anybody saying the Brewers should have not haggled over the 3/4 million $ are saying that they should just pay more than the current system dictates players are to be paid.

 And we know from Burnes’s taking some details public that the Brewers did offer a higher number during negotiations. They only returned to what they believed that arb system number was when an agreement wasn’t made. Again, that’s the smart move to incentivize players to come to agreement in the future. They’re going to get their best offer through negotiations. If you choose to play hardball…Well, There’s no crying in baseball 

Once a hearing goes to arbitration, it's one or the other. There's no middle ground. As far as the negotiations beforehand, most team at this point are file and trial...meaning if they don't come to an agreement before numbers are submit, they don't negotiate from that point forward and go to a hearing. I wouldn't have blamed the Brewers for not even negotiating at all, and from that point on throwing out team friendly proposals just to see if he'd bite is also fine...especially if they felt confident they had the better argument. I also don't have a problem with them going to a hearing. Going to a hearing doesn't require bashing the absolute best player on your team and blaming him for missing the postseason. That can't be the only way to win a hearing. You're talking about the most casual of fans who think "burnes is good, just pay him what he wants to keep him happy".

[MrTPlush]

8 minutes ago, KeithStone53151 said:

The majority of players don't ever go to arbitration. It seems like the majority of good Brewers players that went to arbitration recently were the ones that had similar negative experiences as Burnes did. Another user noted that Max Fried lost his arbitration and had no hard feelings. Maybe he's just better at not being bothered, or maybe the Braves took the high road and weren't willing to upset the player by trashing him in the hearing.

Please list them, I would like to see who these Brewers players are. 

The only one I can think of is Hader and he wasn't even mad at the Brewers...he was mad at the system.

[Playing Catch]

Burnes strikes me as a guy that's always looking for extra motivation. I could imagine him making his own bulletin board material just so that he can prove everyone wrong.

[wiguy94]

2 hours ago, MVP2110 said:

Some really interesting comments on today's Effectively Wild podcast by Todd Rosiak regarding the Burnes arb case. Stated that he had it on good authority that Burnes embellished quite a bit what the Brewers argument during the hearing was and that Burnes knew how the fan base felt about the ownership so he was very calculated in what he said 

Like the deal with Corbin it’s hard to take this as 100% truth because this is likely from a team source, but the truth definitely feels closer to the middle than either of their statements. 

[LouisEly]

10 hours ago, owbc said:

To me it boils down to: You don’t want to have a reputation for ticking off your star players. 

My point was, how do you determine who your star players are that you shouldn't tick off?  What is that dividing line between star players you bend over backwards for and the very good players you don't?  Honest question.

I can say that one of the core principles of team leadership is that you don't want to gain the perception that you treat team members differently.  If you get the perception that certain players, even if they are stars, are treated differently then you lose the rest of the team.  And it takes all 26 players to win.

[areacodes]

5 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Like the deal with Corbin it’s hard to take this as 100% truth because this is likely from a team source, but the truth definitely feels closer to the middle than either of their statements. 

Agreed. However, it will be interesting to see all the posters who trashed the Brewers while believing Burnes comments completely ignore what Rosiak said.

[MrTPlush]

1 hour ago, areacodes said:

Agreed. However, it will be interesting to see all the posters who trashed the Brewers while believing Burnes comments completely ignore what Rosiak said.

Not, of course not. Rosiak's comments basically point to Burnes just being a rich cry-baby intentionally being a douche so people feel bad for him.