Recent Comments By Rockies Owner Reignites Offseason Ire

[PeterBal]

I read this article from CBS Sports on comments made by the Colorado Rockies owner, Dick Monfort, expressing his displeasure with how much the San Diego Padres have spent this off-season. What his comments basically amount to is griping that the Padres are a small market team and are “setting a bad example” for other teams who can’t (read: don’t) spend as much (read: don’t have a desire to win, but would rather just run their teams as a business venture).

I loved this quote from the article:

"The single biggest problem in Major League Baseball right now -- and the driver of many related problems -- is the owner who doesn't care about winning, who views the franchise as a portfolio holding rather than a civic treasure that carries with it certain obligations. Worst of all, owners can invest in the payroll and still remain quite profitable, such are the immense revenue streams that teams enjoy in exchange for merely existing. Too many, though, would prefer to cash those checks while putting forward very little effort toward the only thing that justifies their existence. That thing is trying to win baseball games like, you know, the small-market San Diego Padres."

I feel like I’m ripping a scab off again because there were some heated, yet, I felt, good debates on the Brewer Fanatic Facebook posts during the Winter Meetings and right after. However, I’m still wondering if the Brewers will remain in the “Rockies camp” and stand by their claim they can’t spend X amount of dollars, or, adopt more of a “Padres camp” approach in the offseason and commit to do whatever necessary to bring a World Series title to Milwaukee - a small market, yes, but one that is a baseball-first city who very much supports the team.

More importantly, I wish just one Milwaukee sports media person would ask GM Matt Arnold and owner Mark Attanasio, “How important is it to try to win a World Series vs. ‘put a good team on the field [something Arnold has said multiple times as of late]’?”

A lot of people think one helps get to the other, but in reality, one is a commitment. The other is…just business.

Edited January 30, 2023 by PeterBal

[SF70]

23 minutes ago, PeterBal said:

I read this article from CBS Sports on comments made by the Colorado Rockies owner, Dick Monfort, expressing his displeasure with how much the San Diego Padres have spent this off-season. What his comments basically amount to is griping that the Padres are a small market team and are “setting a bad example” for other teams who can’t (read: don’t) spend as much (read: don’t have a desire to win, but would rather just run their teams as a business venture).

I loved this quote from the article:

"The single biggest problem in Major League Baseball right now -- and the driver of many related problems -- is the owner who doesn't care about winning, who views the franchise as a portfolio holding rather than a civic treasure that carries with it certain obligations. Worst of all, owners can invest in the payroll and still remain quite profitable, such are the immense revenue streams that teams enjoy in exchange for merely existing. Too many, though, would prefer to cash those checks while putting forward very little effort toward the only thing that justifies their existence. That thing is trying to win baseball games like, you know, the small-market San Diego Padres."

I feel like I’m ripping a scab off again because there were some heated, yet, I felt, good debates on the Brewer Fanatic Facebook posts during the Winter Meetings and right after. However, I’m still wondering if the Brewers will remain in the “Rockies camp” and stand by their claim they can’t spend X amount of dollars, or, adopt more of a “Padres camp” approach in the offseason and commit to do whatever necessary to bring a World Series title to Milwaukee - a small market, yes, but one that is a baseball-first city who very much supports the team.

More importantly, I wish just one Milwaukee sports media person would ask GM Matt Arnold and owner Mark Attanasio, “How important is it to try to win a World Series vs. ‘put a good team on the field [something Arnold has said multiple times as of late]’?”

A lot of people think one helps get to the other, but in reality, one is a commitment. The other is…just business.

Siedler has decided to lose money for a few years in hopes of winning a WS. Great for him and the city. Big difference in wealth between $800M and 3B tho, I will say. Not sure I can ask Attanasio and his investors to lose $70-$100M a year for 3 years in an effort to go all-in like Preller has asked Siedler to do.

[sveumrules]

There is no “doing whatever necessary” to bring a World Series to Milwaukee.

The Yankees have spent 2.5 Billion on payroll since 2009 to not make it to a single World Series.

The Dodgers have been the most dominant regular season team of the last decade, spending about 2.2 Billion on payroll with one pandemic WS to show for it.

The Angels have spent just shy of 2 Billion on payroll since 2010 to make the playoffs one time.

The Mets, Phillies and Padres spending paid off in 2022, but they all missed the playoffs with Top 10 payrolls in 2021.

No amount of money can overcome the randomness of the postseason.

[PeterBal]

Let’s not lose sight of HOW to spend money either. In writing what I did, I’m not solely advocating to spend money only on bringing free agents. Let’s spend money to keep our best players as well. Is anyone else sick of being a professional minor league team, developing players on our farm and then on our pro team for 4-5 years only to lose them to the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Rangers? Then, the only solution is to trade them before they become free agents and what do we get back? Great farm guys who, many times, become quad A guys, or, are as good as advertised, come up and play for the Brewers and then we lose them in a cyclically similar situation, year in and year out.

[Jopal78]

The man-child owner with a pro team as his plaything doesn’t really exist. 

You cannot get mega-rich in the first place when you stuff your own personal cash into a business so the business can use it for operating expenses . Thus, very few if any of the hedge fund folks who now own most of the teams are pumping their own personal wealth in them to cover payroll, etc. Investors give capital to hedge funds because they trust the fund to make sound financial decisions, the same hedge fund guys then don’t practice what they preach?

While there’s no way to know for sure, most owners are unbelievably wealthy outside of owning a baseball team, thus it doesn’t seem likely they run their teams on the cheap just for the purpose of enriching themselves further. In fact, given the culture of tax avoidance by the 1%er class I’d be surprised any of them take a regular distribution given the likely income tax ramifications of doing so. 

[sveumrules]

3 hours ago, PeterBal said:

Is anyone else sick of being a professional minor league team, developing players on our farm and then on our pro team for 4-5 years only to lose them to the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Rangers?

The “professional minor league” team has won the 8th most games in MLB over the last 15 years. Going by performance (& not just economics) there are a lot of teams much more primed for relegation.

Who have we really lost since Mark A took over the team anyway?

Fielder? That deal would have handcuffed the organization for years unless they ponied up for that good insurance.

Hardy turned into Gomez turned into Hader, Houser and down the line Moose via Maverick.

Lucroy turned into Brinson turned into Yelich.

Many Brewers fans would say two of the worst transactions since Mark A took over were the second Braun extension and the Yelich extension.

Signing your own really good players for big money isn’t a risk free endeavor either.

Even now that we’re reaching the point of starting to deal the stars of the Stearns era, Hader has already turned into Contreras and Gasser, another trade that looks to have the potential to provide value for years to come.

I’d love to extend any of Burnes, Woody or to a lesser extent Adames, but between Mark A’s personal wealth not being on par with other MLB owners, Milwaukee being one of the smallest markets in MLB, the Brewers having one of the measliest TV contracts and Yelich already being on the books for 6/162.5 with a full NTC as someone we’re hoping can keep eking out 2.5 WAR seasons…I can also understand how they might not have the payroll capacity to do so without sacrificing future flexibility beyond a level they are comfortable with.

[BlightyBrew]

5 hours ago, sveumrules said:

There is no “doing whatever necessary” to bring a World Series to Milwaukee.

The Yankees have spent 2.5 Billion on payroll since 2009 to not make it to a single World Series.

The Dodgers have been the most dominant regular season team of the last decade, spending about 2.2 Billion on payroll with one pandemic WS to show for it.

The Angels have spent just shy of 2 Billion on payroll since 2010 to make the playoffs one time.

The Mets, Phillies and Padres spending paid off in 2022, but they all missed the playoffs with Top 10 payrolls in 2021.

No amount of money can overcome the randomness of the postseason.

 Individual teams that have spent money may not have won the WS but you have to go back to 2003 to see a team that won a WS with a bottom half payroll in the MLB.

Baseball economics has changed and what you are going to have for the next 10 years is 4 or 5 teams that are going to try and outspend each other for the best players.  The MLB will eventually become like the EPL with the same 4-6 teams always in the playoffs.  MLB will water down the playoffs to give the illusion of being able to compete for a championship but even that will not help other than to keep allowing the "small" market owners to keep playing the game of not spending.  Can this ownership group spend like the Yankees or Mets? No.  But it can spend more than it does.  Miley and Anderson are not the FA signings for a ownership group that says it wants to win a WS.  This ownership group actions speak for itself.  You only have to take the Burnes arbitration.  The difference between the two is petty in terms of MLB money.  This ownership group not agreeing to Burnes numbers shows to Corbin and all the other MLB players how cheap this ownership group is.  I'm sure in 4 months time when he is traded we will get some top "prospect" or something that we can develop and lose in 4 years time again.  In some ways this franchise is a perfect investment for MA.  Bought cheap sell high.  Most of the fanbase has bought the message of "small" market,  To be fair think most Brewer fans have Stockholm syndrome.  So he doesn't have to spend and he can reap the profits when he sells in 5 years time.  

The only point of the Brewer franchise is to fill out the schedule for the other teams.  We exist to sign, develop, and then let those players win WS for other teams.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  

This franchise will never win a WS as long as has this ownership group.   

However I'm sure they will raise a banner for having 8th most wins or some participation trophy for just taking part.  2023 We Played a 162 Games.  Can't wait for the 10 year anniversary.

 

[SF70]

3 hours ago, BlightyBrew said:

 Individual teams that have spent money may not have won the WS but you have to go back to 2003 to see a team that won a WS with a bottom half payroll in the MLB.

Baseball economics has changed and what you are going to have for the next 10 years is 4 or 5 teams that are going to try and outspend each other for the best players.  The MLB will eventually become like the EPL with the same 4-6 teams always in the playoffs.  MLB will water down the playoffs to give the illusion of being able to compete for a championship but even that will not help other than to keep allowing the "small" market owners to keep playing the game of not spending.  Can this ownership group spend like the Yankees or Mets? No.  But it can spend more than it does.  Miley and Anderson are not the FA signings for a ownership group that says it wants to win a WS.  This ownership group actions speak for itself.  You only have to take the Burnes arbitration.  The difference between the two is petty in terms of MLB money.  This ownership group not agreeing to Burnes numbers shows to Corbin and all the other MLB players how cheap this ownership group is.  I'm sure in 4 months time when he is traded we will get some top "prospect" or something that we can develop and lose in 4 years time again.  In some ways this franchise is a perfect investment for MA.  Bought cheap sell high.  Most of the fanbase has bought the message of "small" market,  To be fair think most Brewer fans have Stockholm syndrome.  So he doesn't have to spend and he can reap the profits when he sells in 5 years time.  

The only point of the Brewer franchise is to fill out the schedule for the other teams.  We exist to sign, develop, and then let those players win WS for other teams.  Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.  

This franchise will never win a WS as long as has this ownership group.   

However I'm sure they will raise a banner for having 8th most wins or some participation trophy for just taking part.  2023 We Played a 162 Games.  Can't wait for the 10 year anniversary.

 

The revenue gap between the large and small-markets is the issue, not the small-market teams, like MKE, not spending more money on payroll.

Some of us think we know that this team can spend more money on payroll than they do but the reality is we don’t. We have no idea of the teams non-payroll expenses.

The infrastructure this FO has rebuilt costs money and most are oblivious to this reality. What happens in the short-term if/when Bally’s goes bankrupt? Will this team get all their money they expected when they signed their agreement with Bally’s? Even if they do, when?

Historically, MA is not a SM outlier with regards to payroll, which is what matters to me.

[TURBO]

12 hours ago, sveumrules said:

There is no “doing whatever necessary” to bring a World Series to Milwaukee.

The Yankees have spent 2.5 Billion on payroll since 2009 to not make it to a single World Series.

The Dodgers have been the most dominant regular season team of the last decade, spending about 2.2 Billion on payroll with one pandemic WS to show for it.

The Angels have spent just shy of 2 Billion on payroll since 2010 to make the playoffs one time.

The Mets, Phillies and Padres spending paid off in 2022, but they all missed the playoffs with Top 10 payrolls in 2021.

No amount of money can overcome the randomness of the postseason.

You can't argue that spending money doesn't increase your chances immensely though.  If that were the case, even the big market teams wouldn't spend the dough.

If we were able to add a few bats and another ace to our rotation, sure, it doesn't guarantee anything, but it surely makes your chances better.  So by your logic, adding Judge, Correa and deGrom or Verlander this past off season wouldn't have improved our chances at a world series title?

It seems like you are suggesting that improving your team doesn't improve your chances of winning the world series.  I mean, I get it, you always post tons of stats to go against what anyone says here, that is your thing, but I just can't get on board with saying that spending more money doesn't improve your chances.

Spending money on the right players at the right time DOES improve your chances at a World Series, doesn't promise anything, but the odds surely get better when adding some of these high priced guys.

[sveumrules]

8 hours ago, BlightyBrew said:

Individual teams that have spent money may not have won the WS but you have to go back to 2003 to see a team that won a WS with a bottom half payroll in the MLB.

Can this ownership group spend like the Yankees or Mets? No.  But it can spend more than it does.

Cots lists both the 2015 Royals and 2017 Astros as ranking 17th in OD payroll.

2021 Braves we’re 14th, so just barely in the top half 

That’s three of the last eight WS winners.

How high do you believe ownership can go on payroll?

Roster Resource currently has the Crew at $120M, compared to STL ($180M), ATL ($200M), PHI ($243M), SDP ($251M) and NYM ($361M).

That’s quite a large gap to overcome. They’d need to bump payroll by 50 to 100 percent to even hang with the non-Mets teams.

Here’s how the Brewers stack up with regards to estimated owner wealth and franchise value…

MIL: $700M | $1.28B
SDP: $3B | $1.575B
PHI: $3.4B | $2.3B
STL: $4B | $2.45B
LAD: $5B | $4.075B
ATL: $8B | $2.1B
NYM: $11.9B | $2.65B

Mark A is much closer in wealth to you & me than he is to the owners of the other currently competitive NL clubs.

I’m not quite ready to make definitive statements like “this franchise will never win a WS as long as has this ownership group” because I can’t see into the future, but yes, until major changes are made to the economic structure of MLB the Brewers (& every other small market team plus many of the rich ones too) will remain long shots to win the World Series.

 

[TURBO]

7 hours ago, BlightyBrew said:

Miley and Anderson are not the FA signings for a ownership group that says it wants to win a WS.  This ownership group actions speak for itself.  You only have to take the Burnes arbitration.  The difference between the two is petty in terms of MLB money.  This ownership group not agreeing to Burnes numbers shows to Corbin and all the other MLB players how cheap this ownership group is. 

 

clap-clap-clap

Yup!

[sveumrules]

4 minutes ago, TURBO said:

You can't argue that spending money doesn't increase your chances immensely though.  If that were the case, even the big market teams wouldn't spend the dough.

If we were able to add a few bats and another ace to our rotation, sure, it doesn't guarantee anything, but it surely makes your chances better.  So by your logic, adding Judge, Correa and deGrom or Verlander this past off season wouldn't have improved our chances at a world series title?

It seems like you are suggesting that improving your team doesn't improve your chances of winning the world series.  I mean, I get it, you always post tons of stats to go against what anyone says here, that is your thing, but I just can't get on board with saying that spending more money doesn't improve your chances.

Spending money on the right players at the right time DOES improve your chances at a World Series, doesn't promise anything, but the odds surely get better when adding some of these high priced guys.

Yes, spending money improves a team’s chances but doesn’t guarantee anything.

That’s literally the story all the stats I post are telling.

 

[Soupbone]

Blighty, it seems, has hit the nail on the head. If you are a Brewer fan the best we can hope for is another "bite of the apple" Then say "we've been in the playoffs 4 years in a row" and be happy? I appreciate good baseball as much as anyone but what is the ultimate goal? It's not that we have no chance, it's that we do have a chance, right now, and this is the best effort (Miley and ANderson) we can make?

[sveumrules]

2 minutes ago, Soupbone said:

Blighty, it seems, has hit the nail on the head. If you are a Brewer fan the best we can hope for is another "bite of the apple" Then say "we've been in the playoffs 4 years in a row" and be happy?

Yes, that is the best realistic hope for any fan of any MLB team because the postseason is largely random and no amount of money can overcome that, though Cohen is certainly trying.

For 25 years from 1983 to 2007 we didn’t even have that degree of hope, so yes I’ve derived happiness from & been entertained by the most recent five year stretch where we won the 6th most games in MLB, even if we were one of the 25 teams not to win a World Series during that time.

[homer]

If Corbin Burnes doesn't have a contract come "pitchers and catchers reporting" date, then I'll be concerned about the arbitration thing.

[areacodes]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

It seems like you are suggesting that improving your team doesn't improve your chances of winning the world series.  I mean, I get it, you always post tons of stats to go against what anyone says here, that is your thing, but I just can't get on board with saying that spending more money doesn't improve your chances.

You act as if it is a bad thing that he’s using stats to back up his positions.

[sveumrules]

Just now, areacodes said:

You act as if it is a bad thing that he’s using stats to back up his positions.

If backing up my position with objective information is “my thing”…yes, guilty as charged.

[TURBO]

14 minutes ago, areacodes said:

You act as if it is a bad thing that he’s using stats to back up his positions.

You can find stats to back up almost any position.  All you have to do is look, submit what fits your narrative, and ignore the rest.

[TURBO]

11 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

If backing up my position with objective information is “my thing”…yes, guilty as charged.

I repeat:

You can find stats to back up almost any position.  All you have to do is look, submit what fits your narrative, and ignore the rest.

Happens all the time on every message board, every walk of life, including politics.  It's just how people argue their point, doesn't mean you are always right just because you were able to find stats that agree with your viewpoint.  There are almost always another stat grouping that will show the opposite.

It's hardly objective.

[clancyphile]

I think I discussed some of the harsher realities of baseball economics before.

The Brewers have a much tighter window on the financial side, and one big reason is the fact their media market is so small.

The operating income is misleading - because major league payroll is not the only expense. There's the upkeep of Miller Park/American Family Field. Given that stadium is getting older, the Brewers need to find a way to either make serious upgrades/a replacement happen. That ain't cheap. There's that spring training facility in Maryvale, where pitchers and catchers report less than three weeks from now. There's paying for the travel and lodging on the road trips, not just for the players and coaches/manager, but the staff that accompanies the team as well.

There's the people who run and maintain those facilities, and all those who handle things from tickets to concessions to parking. There are the DSL, ACL, A, A+, AA, and AAA minor-league teams, their players and coaches. There are the scouts around the world who find the players for the Brewers to draft, trade for, sign as free agents, claim off waivers, etc.

All of that and more was done on $269 million in 2021.

[areacodes]

14 minutes ago, TURBO said:

You can find stats to back up almost any position.  All you have to do is look, submit what fits your narrative, and ignore the rest.

I’ll take sveumrules posts with their, yes, objective information over many other posters here.  

I highly doubt they always think they are right but at least they take their time to back up their position (something that used to be valued here much more).

[CheeseheadInQC]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

I repeat:

You can find stats to back up almost any position.  All you have to do is look, submit what fits your narrative, and ignore the rest.

Happens all the time on every message board, every walk of life, including politics.  It's just how people argue their point, doesn't mean you are always right just because you were able to find stats that agree with your viewpoint.  There are almost always another stat grouping that will show the opposite.

It's hardly objective.

Then argue why the stats are incomplete or out of context or subject to a logical fallacy or why a different set more accurately describes the situation. It seems the alternative is some variation on who shouts loudest.

Also, looking up stats for arguments have caused me to change my mind when the stats don’t match my expectations. There is value in the act itself.

[PeterBal]

2 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Cots lists both the 2015 Royals and 2017 Astros as ranking 17th in OD payroll.

2021 Braves we’re 14th, so just barely in the top half 

That’s three of the last eight WS winners.

How high do you believe ownership can go on payroll?

Roster Resource currently has the Crew at $120M, compared to STL ($180M), ATL ($200M), PHI ($243M), SDP ($251M) and NYM ($361M).

That’s quite a large gap to overcome. They’d need to bump payroll by 50 to 100 percent to even hang with the non-Mets teams.

Here’s how the Brewers stack up with regards to estimated owner wealth and franchise value…

MIL: $700M | $1.28B
SDP: $3B | $1.575B
PHI: $3.4B | $2.3B
STL: $4B | $2.45B
LAD: $5B | $4.075B
ATL: $8B | $2.1B
NYM: $11.9B | $2.65B

Mark A is much closer in wealth to you & me than he is to the owners of the other currently competitive NL clubs.

I’m not quite ready to make definitive statements like “this franchise will never win a WS as long as has this ownership group” because I can’t see into the future, but yes, until major changes are made to the economic structure of MLB the Brewers (& every other small market team plus many of the rich ones too) will remain long shots to win the World Series.

 

I guess that’s my frustration with this whole thing. It’s like the Brewers (or, insert other similar market teams here) are willing to take the blue pill and numb out and just play the game. It’s like a Machiavellian game played by MLB to just keep teams like Brewers under its thumb to just be the “also rans” of the league, teams that the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. just have to wade through to finally get to the inevitable playoffs and/or World Series, and we should be just be happy/satisfied with it. Here, eat this do-do sandwich with a smile on your face, Brewer fans. I’m not claiming to know the answers but landing Wade Miley, Brian Anderson, Alex Claudio and Owen Miller hardly seems like trying. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

31 minutes ago, PeterBal said:

I’m not claiming to know the answers but landing Wade Miley, Brian Anderson, Alex Claudio and Owen Miller hardly seems like trying. 

So what would in your opinion?

[wiguy94]

33 minutes ago, PeterBal said:

I guess that’s my frustration with this whole thing. It’s like the Brewers (or, insert other similar market teams here) are willing to take the blue pill and numb out and just play the game. It’s like a Machiavellian game played by MLB to just keep teams like Brewers under its thumb to just be the “also rans” of the league, teams that the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. just have to wade through to finally get to the inevitable playoffs and/or World Series, and we should be just be happy/satisfied with it. Here, eat this do-do sandwich with a smile on your face, Brewer fans. I’m not claiming to know the answers but landing Wade Miley, Brian Anderson, Alex Claudio and Owen Miller hardly seems like trying. 

A bit funny that you ignore the two biggest offseason moves. I am sure it was just an honest mistake.