Attanasio Nixed Wong Trade to BOS?

[jerichoholicninja]

Is Carrabis any sort of "legitimate" source? Whenever I see anything from him it's usually your standard ESPN/hot take/click bait garbage.

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Is Carrabis any sort of "legitimate" source? Whenever I see anything from him it's usually your standard ESPN/hot take/click bait garbage.

When it comes to the Red Sox, I would say yes. He's basically their version of Aaron Nagler...

[Brewcrew82]

2 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

That’s not upside, that’s his career average. Like I said, if he hit at his career average and have the Brewers 450+ PAs they would probably be very happy. 

Huh? His "career average" is a 126 wRC+ (which the Brewers would still be really happy with). So, the upside with Winker is literally one of the best hitters in the game...

[TURBO]

17 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

So, the upside with Winker is literally one of the best hitters in the game...

That is VERY debatable.

[Brewcrew82]

8 minutes ago, TURBO said:

That is VERY debatable.

He was a top 15 hitter in MLB from 2020-2021 (145 wRC+), sandwiched between guys like Jose Ramirez and Paul Goldschmidt. That's just fact...I'm not saying he'll get there this season (I'll take the Steamer projection of 122 wRC+), but that's the potential upside we're dealing with here...

[TURBO]

He is coming off major surgery, and was no where near that player last year. 

Also FACT.

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, TURBO said:

He is coming off major surgery, and was no where near that player last year. 

Also FACT.

Do you not understand the meaning of upside??

[TURBO]

3 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Do you understand the idea of upside??

Do you understand the meaning of downside?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

1 minute ago, TURBO said:

He is coming off major surgery, and was no where near that player last year. 

Also FACT.

It was talked about as upside, not a prediction or projection. It's more or less, Winker's ceiling. He may very well never reach those heights again, but if he is truly over the injury troubles, as he claims to be, he has a track record of MLB success to draw from.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

2 minutes ago, TURBO said:

Do you understand the idea of downside?

No one is arguing that there isn't downside (i.e. risk) here.

[TURBO]

I truly hope Winker bounces back, but in my mind, the chances of him being that player again are a lot less than him being the player he was last year.

[Brewcrew82]

9 minutes ago, TURBO said:

Do you understand the idea of downside?

So it obviously looks like you don't then...Jopal was saying Winker had little upside. I demonstrated that he has significant upside as someone who was one of the best hitters in baseball the two seasons previous to last.

I don't think it's fair to expect him to reach those heights coming off surgery. But this is a guy who has been an above average hitter every single season of his career, even in his so called "trash" season of 2022 where he still put up a 109 wRC+. The Steamer projection (122 wRC+) is very reasonable and one that would represent a significant boost to the middle of this lineup. 

Further, the downside you're referring to, as someone who walks at an elite level and makes contact at a high level, is still an upgrade over what McCutchen gave us this season. 

[Brewcrew82]

17 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I truly hope Winker bounces back, but in my mind, the chances of him being that player again are a lot less than him being the player he was last year.

He's not 36...He's 29. Nothing is for certain, but I'm optimistic that he'll continue to be a well above average hitter now that the maladies that ailed him last season have been seemingly resolved. Again, the Steamer projection (122 wRC+) represents a reasonable expectation here, with the upside being 2020-2021 and the downside being 2022 (which is still an above average hitter). 

[Redd Vencher]

3 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Wonder if it was:

1) Both offers happened to be on the table at the same time and that’s how he got to decide he was getting traded for win-now players.

or 

2) Attanasio shot it down and told Arnold he can find win-now talent for Wong or Wong is on the 2023 roster.

There was a reported 3 team deal on the table involving Wong that didn't happen. I wonder if it involved the Red Sox.

[TURBO]

20 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

So it obviously looks like you don't then...

Much easier to get your point across without the snarkiness and superiority complex.

I understand what upside means, I just don't believe we are going to see that side of him until maybe a bit further along in the season when he is truly recuperated from his surgery.  Athletes always say they are on schedule with no issues during the off season, especially ones that just got traded.

And again, I want him to be a world beater right out of the gate, I'm not the fan who roots against guys so I can be right.  I want to be 100% wrong in this case.

[Brewcrew82]

19 minutes ago, TURBO said:

Much easier to get your point across without the snarkiness and superiority complex.

I understand what upside means, I just don't believe we are going to see that side of him until maybe a bit further along in the season when he is truly recuperated from his surgery.  Athletes always say they are on schedule with no issues during the off season, especially ones that just got traded.

And again, I want him to be a world beater right out of the gate, I'm not the fan who roots against guys so I can be right.  I want to be 100% wrong in this case.

Yes, because you completely misrepresenting what the conversation was about in the first place (i.e., upside), and then being obstinate about it despite attempts by myself and another poster to reorient your thoughts to the topic at hand, means you're the victim of my "snarkiness" and "superiority complex"....

I am glad that we all seem to have arrived at the same understanding now, though. We shouldn't expect Winker to immediately perform to his upside (2020-2021) given that he's coming off surgery, but the downside (2022) is still an above average hitter, and a median outcome (i.e. career average, Steamer projection, 122 wRC+) would be a welcome boost to the lineup. 

[owbc]

These guys were basically Mariners' rejects, so you really have to inject some optimism in your veins in order to think that they will be difference makers for the Brewers in 2023. 

Wong wasn't part of the Brewers' 2023 plans but they recognized they could get something of value for him -- either a lower-tier prospect in exchange for the salary dump or some reclamation projects that came with equivalent salary. You can understand why Attanasio didn't like the optics of another salary dump.

I'm of the opinion that the Brewers will get some value out of Toro since he has some pop from the left side and can play 3/4 infield positions. And you can see the appeal of getting Winker back into a ballpark that is more favorable to left-handed hitters, especially with the shift ban. It's certainly a play for 2023 and when you combine it with the fortuitous Contreras acquisition and the prospects coming up we have a team that has a fair bit of offensive upside for 2023. 

Attanasio always seems to have his pulse on the fans -- the Brewers' FO would probably go full Tampa Bay if they could but Attanasio tends to keep that in check when he can. 

Also remember that the Mariners' FO is quick to dump guys that they are done with. They don't care about sunk costs and would rather swap for a fresh face than give a guy a second year to bounce back. That pairs well with the opportunistic attitude of the Brewers' FO. 

[rickh150]

Brewers have upside this year and I think MA is aware…

1. The many promising and young outfielders, with one or two hopefully playing well, should be an upgrade even with the loss of Renfroe.

2. DH should be better. They have the great Winker who, although over 200 points lower in OPS against righties than the lowly Hiura, could bounce back to being a well-above avg hitter and needed DH for us after the crazy decision of CC to simply let Cutch play and hit throughout the season, regardless of outcomes. Hiura and his .866 OPS against RHP is still here too. Contreras will get swings at DH too.

3. And speaking of him, We have an All Star catcher! And is young, cheap, and controllable for five years. His defense is meh, but even that could be improved upon considering age and coaching.

4. About no one had a better 2022 than 2021. Maybe Wong or Renfroe… Yelich? Our SP all were worse, injured more, or both. Bullpen was waaay worse last year than 2022 and we still almost got in the playoffs. Even if a couple/few of our starting pitchers have bounce back years, that should make up several games in the win column right there.