Game 15: Green Bay @ Miami - Christmas 12 PM CT

[brewcrewdue80]

1 minute ago, HarryDoyle said:

On the downside, this might save Barry's job.

There is next week and stopping the Vikings and Jefferson/Cook/ and Thielen. 

[homer]

13 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

It didn't in Super Bowl 45.

lol

[igor67]

I like our chances if we get 3 INTs and a fumble each game.

[BruisedCrew]

25 minutes ago, HarveysWBs said:

And for those wondering on the 4th down decision, it was apparently a toss-up analytically.

I don’t doubt that, and didn’t think the decision was a no brainer. But, all things considered, I would have gone for it because a successful play would have put the game away.

[UpandIn]

30 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

On the downside, this might save Barry's job.

[young guns]

I misses what happened to watson, can someone fill me in?

[yourout]

1 minute ago, young guns said:

I misses what happened to watson, can someone fill me in?

He got tagged pretty good on that third down conversion that Rogers got to him a little bit late

[OldHeidelberg]

Great win, seemed like we must have had turnovers on every Miami drive after they went up 20-10 but I must be forgetting a punt or 2. I didn't like kicking the FG late but it worked out, really I was more mad they didn't throw on 3rd since the clock wasn't a huge issue at that moment. 538 has us up to 27% to make playoffs but seems better than that now that we are on a bit of a roll.

[MrTPlush]

I liked the late field goal. You aren’t getting the ball back, might as well force them to drive the length of the field with no two minute warning or timeouts. Was annyone optimistic we would win in OT? Not me. Even ignoring the INT that drive was starting out a real poor with the short inbounds play to burn the clock right off the bat. Then they went inbounds again. 

I’m surprised they did that. Usually you want to at least cut the field in half with the other team playing prevent and giving free yards for almost no time lost.

[CheezWizHed]

I have to admit that the second half defense was interesting.  Seems like they were running a 2-5-4 at times with three MLBs (Campbell, Walker and McDuffie).  Maybe I got that wrong... I didn't stop to count who was there. But McDuffie was out there fairly often in the second half and I never saw Walker or Campbell out.  And I noticed several times with out two DL - Clark+Reed. Anyone else notice that?

That certainly seemed to help cut out some of the middle routes that Tua was feasting on early. 

[UpandIn]

7 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I have to admit that the second half defense was interesting.  Seems like they were running a 2-5-4 at times with three MLBs (Campbell, Walker and McDuffie).  Maybe I got that wrong... I didn't stop to count who was there. But McDuffie was out there fairly often in the second half and I never saw Walker or Campbell out.  And I noticed several times with out two DL - Clark+Reed. Anyone else notice that?

That certainly seemed to help cut out some of the middle routes that Tua was feasting on early. 

I don't remember seeing McDuffie out there at all on defense. I thought I saw Carpenter out there(24?) and Barnes in for a few short yardage snaps(I'm not sure...I hadn't seen him since he played most the game when Campbell was out). And then Innis Gaines a few times both in the box. Some different looks at safety, but I thought the front was mostly a Clark and then Reed and Wyatt played ~20-25 snaps(I pay closer attention to him when he's in and still think he needs more snaps). 

The guy who did seem to get more snaps than normal is Hollins. 

I may have just missed it though. 
I did notice it seemed like they went to a cover 6 type defense after the first half and tried to do it when Hill was on the outside so they could bracket him, but given how badly they were getting gashed, it's entirely possible I missed that. 

 

I have NOT changed my mind on Barry, but he did seem to adjust pretty well yesterday with Nixon, Lowry and I'm sure someone else on defense going out. 

One guy I didn't see out there a ton was Ford. I know he was on the field because he's a core STer, but I didn't see him on D much. 

[yourout]

2 hours ago, UpandIn said:

I don't remember seeing McDuffie out there at all on defense. I thought I saw Carpenter out there(24?) and Barnes in for a few short yardage snaps(I'm not sure...I hadn't seen him since he played most the game when Campbell was out). And then Innis Gaines a few times both in the box. Some different looks at safety, but I thought the front was mostly a Clark and then Reed and Wyatt played ~20-25 snaps(I pay closer attention to him when he's in and still think he needs more snaps). 

The guy who did seem to get more snaps than normal is Hollins. 

I may have just missed it though. 
I did notice it seemed like they went to a cover 6 type defense after the first half and tried to do it when Hill was on the outside so they could bracket him, but given how badly they were getting gashed, it's entirely possible I missed that. 

 

I have NOT changed my mind on Barry, but he did seem to adjust pretty well yesterday with Nixon, Lowry and I'm sure someone else on defense going out. 

One guy I didn't see out there a ton was Ford. I know he was on the field because he's a core STer, but I didn't see him on D much. 

I thought I saw Ford on the field a fair amount and he was usually chasing the play because he's just not fast enough.

[CheezWizHed]

2 hours ago, yourout said:

I thought I saw Ford on the field a fair amount and he was usually chasing the play because he's just not fast enough.

I did see Ford chasing on a couple plays, but it wasn't because he wasn't "fast enough". He is one of our fastest players.  He was normally coming from the opposite side.  But he didn't make many plays yesterday.

I think Savage did get more play in the second half with less Ford.  Neither did much, IMO.

[CheezWizHed]

5 hours ago, UpandIn said:

I don't remember seeing McDuffie out there at all on defense. I thought I saw Carpenter out there(24?) and Barnes in for a few short yardage snaps(I'm not sure...I hadn't seen him since he played most the game when Campbell was out). And then Innis Gaines a few times both in the box. Some different looks at safety, but I thought the front was mostly a Clark and then Reed and Wyatt played ~20-25 snaps(I pay closer attention to him when he's in and still think he needs more snaps). 

The guy who did seem to get more snaps than normal is Hollins. 

I may have just missed it though. 
I did notice it seemed like they went to a cover 6 type defense after the first half and tried to do it when Hill was on the outside so they could bracket him, but given how badly they were getting gashed, it's entirely possible I missed that. 

 

I have NOT changed my mind on Barry, but he did seem to adjust pretty well yesterday with Nixon, Lowry and I'm sure someone else on defense going out. 

One guy I didn't see out there a ton was Ford. I know he was on the field because he's a core STer, but I didn't see him on D much. 

I think you are right.  Rewatching the second half and I see 38 instead of 58.  Probably threw me a bit because he played close to the LOS often. 

Though, on Jaire's INT (and a few other times), they did have 3 MLB - Walker, Campbell, and Barnes with two DL.  I generally noticed it when I was looking at the DL to see if Wyatt was in.  From what I can see, if Barnes was in, they were in a 2-5-4 (with Barnes/Campbell/Walker) and if Gaines was in, it was a 2-4-5 (with Savage/Amos/Gaines).  The result seemed to really fill in the middle of the field where Tua liked completing passes - to MIA in the first half...to GB in the second.

Wyatt did have a good game.  Hopefully, he takes Lowry's snaps now.

Hollins was solid out there for a backup.  Not much pressure on pass rush, but set the edge well. 

I'd really like to know what is up with Tonyan.  Has he lost his burst?  Used to be our endzone killer, but has hardely even had his name called for weeks.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Wyatt has definitely emerged as the season has unfolded....he's winning one on one battles against the run and in the pass rush, to the point where he was even being doubled on some play-side runs with Clark lined up next to him.

I think a product of the 3INTs was the 2nd half pass rush getting to Tua and forcing him to throw the ball a bit earlier than he would've wanted to - Miami's offense is set up to throw timing passes to receivers running option routes as they break into open spaces in zone coverage.  They seemed to shy away from the run even though it was productive for them, and it allowed LBs to get further into coverage and the Dline generated enough of a pass rush without blitzing that Tua was passing into tighter windows that receivers weren't breaking into.

[yourout]

4 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I did see Ford chasing on a couple plays, but it wasn't because he wasn't "fast enough". He is one of our fastest players.  He was normally coming from the opposite side.  But he didn't make many plays yesterday.

I think Savage did get more play in the second half with less Ford.  Neither did much, IMO.

Fair enough... We just seem to get so little production out of the safeties.

[sveumrules]

Tua back in concussion protocols.

Looks like it maybe happened with like 2:37 left in Q2 when his head bounced off the ground a little…

 

[bjkrautk]

So he didn't mean to throw 3 picks to end the game...he was just concussed...only we don't know exactly when or where it happened...and somehow the independent neurologist and everyone associated with the league seemed to miss it until after the game?

 

Boy who cried concussion?

[LouisEly]

On 12/25/2022 at 1:26 PM, edfunderburk said:

Green Bay is not coached well on any of their three teams 

LaFluer is not strong enough to lead Rodgers 

I’d be okay with a complete sweep & I want a coach who is team leader no matter the QB

The Packers are undisciplined & don’t have (or don’t execute) good game plans

This is no way to spend Christmas Day - what a disappointing team & year

 

What a great way to spend Christmas Day!

[UpandIn]

7 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I think you are right.  Rewatching the second half and I see 38 instead of 58.  Probably threw me a bit because he played close to the LOS often. 

Though, on Jaire's INT (and a few other times), they did have 3 MLB - Walker, Campbell, and Barnes with two DL.  I generally noticed it when I was looking at the DL to see if Wyatt was in.  From what I can see, if Barnes was in, they were in a 2-5-4 (with Barnes/Campbell/Walker) and if Gaines was in, it was a 2-4-5 (with Savage/Amos/Gaines).  The result seemed to really fill in the middle of the field where Tua liked completing passes - to MIA in the first half...to GB in the second.

Wyatt did have a good game.  Hopefully, he takes Lowry's snaps now.

Hollins was solid out there for a backup.  Not much pressure on pass rush, but set the edge well. 

I'd really like to know what is up with Tonyan.  Has he lost his burst?  Used to be our endzone killer, but has hardely even had his name called for weeks.

They were definitely using different personnel groupings, so it threw me a bit as well. And I think you're right...they used longer bodies to crowd the middle. 

Here are the snap counts;

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/packers-snap-counts-versus-the-dolphins-week-sixteen-138

With Ford and Nixon both banged up, they had to go pretty deep...which may have helped. I thought Gaines looked pretty good in pre-season, but he's been cut from the PS IIRC a couple times, so I guess he hasn't been as impressive. 

Hollins was effective in just not letting Tua get outside and basically as an effort player like you said. He's a nice little find, but being without Gary is just such a backbreaker. 

 

As for Tonyan...I don't know what's going on there. Obviously the knee plays into it, but he did not look great the first half of last year. Or least he didn't put up big numbers. I don't know. Rodgers has never really thrown to the TE much other than Finley.
He's looked alright, but a few years ago I thought he was gonna be an 800 yard, 8-10 TD type TE.

I do know this team needs to go out and draft another GA player next year. Darnell Washington HAS to be a Packer. He is a young Mercedes Lewis. Dominant physical blocker. 

Arik Gilbert has almost Kyle Pitts level talent, but...I don't know what the hell is going on with him. He can't even stay on a team in College. Maybe it's grades and something that won't be an issue in GB...because he'd be one HELLUVA late rd pick or UDFA(I assume a lot of teams would be lining up for the later). 

[UpandIn]

4 hours ago, bjkrautk said:

So he didn't mean to throw 3 picks to end the game...he was just concussed...only we don't know exactly when or where it happened...and somehow the independent neurologist and everyone associated with the league seemed to miss it until after the game?

 

Boy who cried concussion?

Dude...have you followed what's happened with him this year? He's not the boy "crying concussion." He's the man who started seizing on the field after two VERY obvious concussions in a 4 day span and probably shouldn't be playing Football this year. 

On a hit vs the Bills, he was stumbling around and they said it was a "back and ankle." Then when he did that thing with his fingers vs the Bengals, it was...obvious something was VERY wrong.

Now seeing how his head bounced on the hit by Enagbare? It doesn't seem like a stretch...at all. 

[bjkrautk]

9 hours ago, UpandIn said:

Dude...have you followed what's happened with him this year? He's not the boy "crying concussion." He's the man who started seizing on the field after two VERY obvious concussions in a 4 day span and probably shouldn't be playing Football this year. 

On a hit vs the Bills, he was stumbling around and they said it was a "back and ankle." Then when he did that thing with his fingers vs the Bengals, it was...obvious something was VERY wrong.

Now seeing how his head bounced on the hit by Enagbare? It doesn't seem like a stretch...at all. 

I'm aware of his history, and I'm not doubting the prior concussions from earlier this year.  He was evaluated for a concussion during the Buffalo game and allowed to stay in, then hospitalized 4 days later against the Bengals.  Both times, he had concussion symptoms.  That didn't happen on Sunday.

Tua is the most-watched player in the NFL right now, and no one saw anything during the game.  The Miami coaches and the guy who's literal job it is to watch the players for signs of a concussion...never checked in on the player with the history of concussions, only for the team to subsequently claim he had one....and that's why he played badly.

 

I don't think it's the player, I think it's the team covering for the player...and people won't question it, because of what happened earlier in the year.  If the coaches and the medical staff thought he was concussed, he wouldn't have been out there

[GAME05]

This is what, concussion #4 for Tua this year?

And as nice as it is to have guys with binoculars looking for signs of it, how many do they just not spot. A retired Vikings DE said he'd get concussed and just automatically line up for the next play without realizing he was even doing it.

NFL may need to at least make it a rule that any player with a concussion must sit out the following week.

I'm genuinely surprised there haven't been more Chris Borlands the past few years.

[UpandIn]

4 hours ago, bjkrautk said:

I'm aware of his history, and I'm not doubting the prior concussions from earlier this year.  He was evaluated for a concussion during the Buffalo game and allowed to stay in, then hospitalized 4 days later against the Bengals.  Both times, he had concussion symptoms.  That didn't happen on Sunday.

Ok, so you've dubbed Tua the "boy who cried concussion," and you DID know about earlier this year?
You watched how he couldn't walk and stumbled vs the Bills and how that Neurologist was fired, right?

So that's two concussions where he had brutally obvious physical signs that a layman could have diagnosed...meaning, his chances for a concussion are MUCH higher that he gets another concussion...and you think he's faking it? Did HE even say he had a concussion? I thought the HC just said he was in concussion protocol?

4 hours ago, bjkrautk said:

Both times, he had concussion symptoms.  That didn't happen on Sunday.

You know that doesn't mean someone did or didn't get a concussion, right? You don't need to lose consciousness and have your hands start involuntarily shaking for a player to get a concussion. We saw his head get bounced off the ground again.

4 hours ago, bjkrautk said:

Tua is the most-watched player in the NFL right now, and no one saw anything during the game.  The Miami coaches and the guy who's literal job it is to watch the players for signs of a concussion...never checked in on the player with the history of concussions, only for the team to subsequently claim he had one....and that's why he played badly.

 

I don't think it's the player, I think it's the team covering for the player...and people won't question it, because of what happened earlier in the year.  If the coaches and the medical staff thought he was concussed, he wouldn't have been out there

They didn't say that's why he played badly and the fact that they're saying he has a concussion again...that reflects TERRIBLY on the team and the medical staff. 

You also surely know players lie about concussions, right? They claim they don't have them when they obviously do? Like Tua did earlier this year when he went down trying to get back to the huddle? 
There is absolutely NOTHING to gain by the team or the medical staff here, only something for them to lose. 

 

Again, we saw his head hit the turf again, HARD. It seems strange you'd question this or call Tua the boy who "cried concussion."

[UpandIn]

1 hour ago, GAME05 said:

This is what, concussion #4 for Tua this year?

And as nice as it is to have guys with binoculars looking for signs of it, how many do they just not spot. A retired Vikings DE said he'd get concussed and just automatically line up for the next play without realizing he was even doing it.

NFL may need to at least make it a rule that any player with a concussion must sit out the following week.

I'm genuinely surprised there haven't been more Chris Borlands the past few years.

The arrogance of youth. I got a few concussions in my life, but I don't ever remember thinking they'd be a problem later on(and I sure wasn't making money to play sports at this point). 

Tua's gotta be making ~8M a year I'd guess and as the 5th pick, the option will be worth...30M at least. Probably more by the time that comes along(it's the average of the top 10 QBs, so probably 35M by the time a few more contracts are signed). 

It's hard to tell someone what to do, but I wish this kid would take a year off. At least the rest of this year. Your brain has to heal(so far as I understand it) or the risk is constantly higher for each concussion.