Acceptable language?

[huntsvillefan]

I have a simple question is the phrase:

 

mental cases that fall to pieces at the drop of a hat.

 

considered suitable for use in describing players (or anyone else) on these boards?

 

I have a vested interest in this question, in that I have withdrawn from this site in protest at its use by one moderator, followed by the defense of its use by another moderator.

I'll continue that protest apart from this thread, but I do think, that it is a question important enough to need resolution for reasons other than my tender sensibilities.

I had thought that phrases that made use of abusive terms for mental illness for any purposes, nevermind those of mockery or 'hyperbole' ,had passed out of acceptable usage along with the racial epithets most decent people despise.

I certainly can't imagine being comfortable using that phrase 'in front of my 10 year old' as site guidelines suggest.

Yet the phrase was used by one moderator and defended by another, so I can only presume that I am the one totally out of step with the sensibilities both of this site and current ethics.

I pose the question anyhow in the hope that its acceptability may either be a minority view among staff, or if not, it might encourage some staff to at least think more deeply about the site ethos in this regard.

I think this is a wonderful forum and civility encapsulated compared to most. It may just be that I am too tender a flower to thrive in the cut and thrust of 'honest debate', so I'm content with my decision to withdraw from posting. I raise this question because I do think that this sort of language reflects very poorly indeed on a site that I have grown to appreciate and care about.

[dadofandrew]

I would remove that if it were written about a kid in the minors. If it were a guy who had been to the bigs, I have no problem with it.

[brewerjamie15]

Mental Case.

 

Hmmm... I guess that's a rather tough one. I don't really think that it's the best way to word things. I'd have to guess that mentally challenged is worse, and I'd also guess that saying a player has "mental issues to overcome" is accepted in most circles. (ie Rick Ankiel and wild pitches)

I don't at all care for the word "pissed" being on the site, but it's here, and not going to make the filtered list. I can live with it.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to stop posting, I don't like to see someone so offended that they no longer want to participate.

I can't judge for you if a phrase like "mental case" is out of line or not. You are the only one who can decide what's right or wrong for you, and if you decide that you no longer want to post, moderators can't change that.

Hopefully, we will see you back here sometime in the future. If you are reading over threads and are concerned about an issue, please feel free to contact me via my brewerfan email, or my inbox.

jamie@brewerfan.net

[Brian the Automator]

[ mental cases that fall to pieces at the drop of a hat. ]

 

I guess i've seen far, far worse language than that be used and I still have been not offended. If the word "@#%$" would have been used to describe a person, I would have had a problem with that (unless the person actually would have been mentally @#%$, and the term used in a non-derogatory context).

 

Given that a large majority of baseball is "mental", I think "mental case" is far more terse and usable than "some guy who can't mentally put it together on the mound" or something to that effect.

 

I wish you wouldn't withdraw from the site over this, as I think this is simply a difference of opinion on terminology, and not some issue where someone was trying to be malicious or was even negligent. I come from a background where several people in my life have had real mental issues such as depression and anxiety, and have friends who have children with mental handicaps, so I'd like to think i'm speaking from an angle that has compassion.

[Team Canada]

followed by the defense of its use by another moderator.

 

All I said was that if someone was using it as a synonym for head case or "psychological struggles" or whatever, and no malice was intended, it's very different than intentionally implying that some minor leaguer has severe mental problems. I don't think anyone here is quite that insensitive. I can see how it could be offensive, especially if one had personal experience somehow, and I'm fine with advising people to look for a better choice of words.

[huntsvillefan]

I'm afraid we have to disagree and I feel strongly that casual and derogatory use of phrases like that continue to stigmatize and debase people with mental iIlness, and make it very difficult for them to confront and treat their problems and make their illnesses more traumatic than need be.

I confess I really do find it difficult to see you using that phrase in front of your 10 year old child, or even that you find it acceptable that a player's father or mother should open a thread and see it written about their son. But if you say so then I believe you. I hope no-one uses it in front of your friends children or your distressed relatives, so that your tolerance on this issue won't be tested. I do accept that I am obviously the one out of step on this site on this issue.

However, as previously said, I find it equally obnoxious to the racial slurs that hopefully most people despise. I could not in conscience support a site that condoned use of them and therefore I must withdraw from a site that endorses this sort of language.

On the whole our discourses have been pleasant and constructive and I wish you and the site well, though obviously I hope you in future come to see this particular issue in a very different light.

[xisxisxis]

While I understand your position huntsvillefan, I think a mutually agreable middle ground would be difficult to accomplish in an open forum considering one of the parties involved is a moderator. While I don't think there would be a concious change in opinions, I do think there could be a subconcious effect on how this would be handled than if the situation was between any 2 posters. Maybe through email or ezboard message system a suitable resolution could be worked out.

[brewerjamie15]

If we as a shole were to coddle to everyone's personal issues, this site would be shut down and never used again. This is a message board and that infers different opinions. Sometimes, peoples feelings get a bit bruised (if they allow it to happen) and that's unavoidable.

If you can't accept the fact that each and every term or statement that may somehow be offensive is going to be left alone then I guess it's time for you to leave.

Honestly, suggesting that a player has some sort of mental hangup is quite common is baseball and therefore, a common term to a baseball site. If a guy gets rattled because of an error in the 3rd inning and blows a play in the 5th because he's timid, he'll be analized as needing to address a mental aspect of his defensive ability. Players have heard it from their own coaches. Parents have heard it of their athlete sons or daughters. It's been a part of sports and will continue to be a part of sports. Simple.

If you are serious with your statement, then that's fine. Leave. I won't stop you. I would ask however you answer this before you go:

In your statement, you made it clear that you will no longer post supporting your point of view. This suggests to me though, that you will continue to read brewerfan.net. If you're going to ban posting, why not totally eliminate any chance of us hurting your feelings and avoid us all together? I'm suggesting that if you're going to make a protest, then do it right. Leave. Don't post, and protect your fragile, flower like state by not even looking at the site. No offense intended, but you wanted opinions, and I gave mine. I'd prefer you stay a member of the site, but like I said; if this place is that terrible, don't even read what we say. That way, you don't have to start another thread like this.

Drama.

[brettac1]

Whatever actions are or aren't taken, I'd just like to see the end result be huntsvillefan continuing to be a poster and member, because his contributions to the forums are excellent.

[huntsvillefan]

suggesting that a player has some sort of mental hangup is quite common is baseball and therefore, a common term to a baseball site. If a guy gets rattled because of an error in the 3rd inning and blows a play in the 5th because he's timid, he'll be analized as needing to address a mental aspect of his defensive ability. Players have heard it from their own coaches. Parents have heard it of their athlete sons or daughters. It's been a part of sports and will continue to be a part of sports. Simple.

 

Agreed. But,if you don't see the difference between what you just said and saying someone is 'a mental case ready to fall apart at the drop of a hat' then I can't honestly enlighten you or communicate with you in any meaningful way.

For the difference between refusing to contribute and still wishing to be aware of what is going on and reading the contributions of people who I deeply respect, I'd have thought that was a simple matter of freedom of choice about how to register my protest. However if it offends, I'm happy to abandon the site completely if so requested.

[brewerjamie15]

I don't want you to go, I wish you'd stay, but like I said before;

if ya gotta go, ya gotta go.

 

I do see the difference you are talking about. I said earlier in the day that calling someone a mental case should be reworded to something more practical.

I still think that you should reconsider your decision, but we can't go eliminating all phrases or words that aren't cared for.

I mentioned earlier that I believe "pissed" should be a gonner, but it's not. I understand that.

In the case of someone using the term "mental case" I apologize on behalf of the site. I see your point, I hope you see mine.

I'd like to continue trying to understand your thoughts and I'd invite you to check your inbox so we can (you and I) see more eye to eye.

[xisxisxis]

I'm suggesting that if you're going to make a protest, then do it right. Leave. Don't post, and protect your fragile, flower like state by not even looking at the site.

 

I never got the impression that huntsvillefan's intentions were a protest. I see his assertion simply as he feels extremely strongly about this issue to the point he doesn't wish to participate in the dialog at Brewerfan. I actually think it's a good thing that you know WHY he might disappear. While I think Brewerfan.net is a great site for Brewer fans there are ways in which the forums can be improved. I really believe it's in your best interest to at least understand and know why a longtime poster feels so strongly about a BF.net policy that they don't wish to participate at the site, You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to do anything about it, but you might learn from it.

 

No offense intended, but you wanted opinions, and I gave mine. I'd prefer you stay a member of the site, but like I said; if this place is that terrible, don't even read what we say.

 

Jamie, people can agree on 1,000 different things, but differ on 1 crtical issue that makes it impossible to come to common ground simply because of that one issue. People can differ in many ways and disagree on many things, but ultimately come to agreement with each other because they agree on the big issues. I think too often people believe that you have to agree on everything or you're an "enemy". I don't think life is that black and white.

 

 

That way, you don't have to start another thread like this.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. You'd prefer if he didn't start a thread like this or it would be better for him if he hadn't started a thread like this? Who is it better for, you/brewerfan or him?

[brewerjamie15]

666 said:I never got the impression that huntsvillefan's intentions were a protest.

Huntsville's own words: I have withdrawn from this site in protest

 

I understand why HF is leaving, I wish it weren't happening, but I'm not going to beg anyone to stick around.

I think that HF and the moderators all learned a bit from this.

 

I said:

No offense intended, but you wanted opinions, and I gave mine. I'd prefer you stay a member of the site, but like I said; if this place is that terrible, don't even read what we say.

To which you replied:

I think too often people believe that you have to agree on everything or you're an "enemy". I don't think life is that black and white.

I agree. I don't know why people can't just understand different people view things differently. I realize that I see things differently than others. Did you think I was being mean and calling HF an "enemy"? I wasn't.

 

I said:

That way, you don't have to start another thread like this.

you said:

I'm not sure what you mean. You'd prefer if he didn't start a thread like this or it would be better for him if he hadn't started a thread like this? Who is it better for, you/brewerfan or him?

 

I'd prefer that if people are so put off by something that they want to leave they first contact a staff member and try to hammer out problems.

 

My life is not so busy that I can't help address a member's concerns. If I were not willing toexamine things and try my best to help, I wouldn't be a very good PR Director would I?

 

When a member -any member- of the site feels that an insult was made or callous behavior reared its ugly head I'd hope that they address a moderator. If a moderator has been the offender, I'd hope that the offended member speak with a staff member.

No member should ever feel the need to leave the site due to a misunderstanding or disagreement, but if someone does feel the need to go, then they are obviously free to do so.

[xisxisxis]

Huntsville's own words: I have withdrawn from this site in protest

 

Well if you wan't to believe everything you read......http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/grin.gif

 

 

I'm not going to beg anyone to stick around.

 

I agree and I hope you didn't get the impression from my posts that is what I expected.

 

Did you think I was being mean and calling HF an "enemy"? I wasn't.

 

No I didn't think that, my comments were more generalizations.

 

 

I'd prefer that if people are so put off by something that they want to leave they first contact a staff member and try to hammer out problems.

 

Understood. I think that sometimes if the issue involves a moderator, some posters may feel intimidated because their may be a defensive reaction from others at brewerfan.net. I think huntsvillefan felt that the moderators were circling the wagons (I won't agree or disagree with whether that was the case, because I haven't reread the whole "incident"). Unfortunately, each situation is different and there isn't a manual to figure out the right course of action on how best to handle it.

[huntsvillefan]

At this point I think nearly everything has been said that can be, so I'm going to wrap up my thoughts and make this a last post for a year or so anyhow.

 

First I want to make it clear that I don't in any way feel that I've been forced out, its entirely my decision and made for complex reasons that I hope this post will clarify a little more.

 

I'd like to thank the people who have asked me to stay and who have posted to my EZBox, I will respond properly over the next day or so. But I didn't make this decision to pander to my ego or have a public pout. I think there is nothing worse than the message board prima donna who threatens to leave just so he can be asked to stay. And to that extent once I announced a considered decision to go (as opposed to my first flare of temper), I felt pretty much committed to that course of action.

 

The main reason for withdrawing from posting is to draw attention to what I consider to be an ethical blindspot in an otherwise great site. I accept that you are all sincere in your tolerance for the mode of expression that I condemned. And on that issue I feel I owe Team Canada an apology as he was merely presenting the 'company view' while trying to pour oil on troubled waters.

I think I've already made the reasons for my objection clear. I feel that this differs from Jamie's aversion to 'pissed' in that while 'pissed' is merely distasteful and unnecessary, 'mental cases etc' is IMO the sort of thing that causes pain and shame in people who already suffer too much of both. I don't expect that any of you will change your minds overnight, but I do hope that by making it obvious how strongly I feel about this, that when this issue arises again (as it inevitably will), it might contribute to a group re-think.

 

The other reason for not posting is more complex and may clarify why I'm happy to continue to read though not to contribute (though as I said, if so requested I'll do neither).

When I read the 'mental case' phrase initially with its reference to Hendrickson and Krynzel, my gut literally churned. I know that their relatives read these threads and I could only think of the pain they'd feel on reading that.

And that pain was caused by my initial post and response. If I hadn't initiated that discussion, or even if I had followed my inclinations to ignore the follow up question, that statement would never have been made and two decent people wouldn't(in all probability) have found themselves angry and upset.

Don't get me wrong, anyone who is attrempting a career in professional sport has to learn to live with criticism as do their relatives. But there is a difference between criticism and insult and I feel that increasingly often these days that boundary gets crossed. I have no desire to be the person who provokes the insult that twists the knife just a little bit more in that caring father or mothers heart.

I know that if I continued to post, especially in the minor league forum, I'd continue to invite the sort of invective that(IMO) does so much damage and that on its own is enough to persuade me to discontinue.

I realize that there are many shades of grey within this argument and that it isn't a black and white issue. But the bottom line for me is that I don't think that seeing my opinion in print is worth the pain it indirectly causes.

 

I hope this clarifies things a bit and I'll happily answer questions in my EZBox if anyone has any. I've enjoyed the vast majority of my arguments here and I'd like to give a hat tip to Brett as he and I have managed to disagree about everything from Moneyball to fielding runs without ever getting uncivil. I'd also like to say that I really do appreciate the difficulty of being a moderator and that on the whole you guys do a really great job.

If nothing else comes from this, at least the next time someone accuses Brian of censoring too much, he can point out he just had someone leave because he censored too little http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[dadofandrew]

I'm a bit puzzled, HF, why is "mental case" offensive? Certainly there are words and phrases in our everyday talk that are worse, like "******", "psycho", "crazy as a loon", "nutjob", etc. Idiot used to be a clinical term, now it's as mainstream as any word in the language.

 

Tell me, what term would you use to describe a young pitcher who seemingly has the physical tools but falls apart on a big league mound? A fallaparter? An unable to make the jump due to his noggin person?

 

I worked pizza delivery for years, and often delivered to the "psych ward" at both hospitals in Eau Claire, and had many patients call it the nut house, crazy ward, and so on.

 

I'm a tad bit on the heavy side myself (in the same way that Prince has a tad bit of a great future), and I certainly wouldn't feel bad if people used many words to describe me, because they're true.

 

I guess I just don't see "mental case" as being nasty or mean.

 

HF, if you wish to replay privately, so be it.

[DHonks]

I can't figure out exactly the discrepency. I've been told that I have mental issues with golf. I accept it, in fact I have used it as a tool. My handicap is about 0.4, and has been as high as +1.8. Yet I am notorious for making double and triple bogeys. I used to take the mental comments negatively. But as I learned to accept things, I realized that I could take a double bogey and give up like all those kids I hated in high school, or I could come right back on the next hole and make an eagle or birdie.

 

Saying a pitcher tends to fall apart, 100% because of mental reasons, can be nearly factual (mechanical and mental can be interrelated). I don't know who they were referring to, but it would seem to me that the pitcher has a hurdle they need to overcome. It could be Little Ben, I don't know. I've long supported him, as his father can attest. Ben has stated he needs to get over the 1st inning issue in the big leagues, and that it's simply a mental issue.

 

So I guess I don't know the context. I don't understand that it was offensive. I do think that we tend to get a bit critical of the kids at times, and that's something we're all claiming to be trying to improve on. I really, hope that Huntsvillefan will stay. But I think this is a matter of perception.

[rluzinski]

Saying a pitcher tends to fall apart, 100% because of mental reasons, can be nearly factual (mechanical and mental can be interrelated). I don't know who they were referring to, but it would seem to me that the pitcher has a hurdle they need to overcome.

 

I think he took offense to how it was said, not the idea behind it. Al says he doesn't mind if people point out he's heavier than some but would probably take offense to someone calling a "lazy fatty". It's the negative connotation. I don't know if I completely agree with Hunt's position (shouldn't be allowed) but I can appreciate why he feels the way he does.

 

Also, I think Jamie has done an absolutely great job as PR directer but comments like this:

 

"Don't post, and protect your fragile, flower like state by not even looking at the site."

 

... seems pretty darn disrespectful. Kettle, black, I know but I'm not the public relations guy.

[splitterpfj]

Huntsville, I think you're making a mistake.

 

I fully respect your opinion, and I admire a man who's willing to stand for something rather than just go along, but I think you're taking the wrong approach.

 

I've spent enough time on this site to know that no one here is trying to be offensive, or make light of those who suffer from mental illness, that's just not the case. You've said your piece, very thoroughly and eloquently, I'm with you as far as that goes, I just don't see a benefit in your choice to shut down.

 

I've read many of your posts here, you know your baseball, you don't rock the boat, you seem to be the type that sites like this one need more of, not less.

 

I'm hoping you'll change your mind, thinking baseball fans have made this site what it is, your contributions have been a part of that process.

 

All my best.

 

-Todd

[brewerjamie15]

Also, I think Jamie has done an absolutely great job as PR directer but comments like this:

I may very well have deserved this to a point:

 

"Don't post, and protect your fragile, flower like state by not even looking at the site."

... seems pretty darn disrespectful. Kettle, black, I know but I'm not the public relations.[/b] rluzinski

 

Fair enough, Russ.

 

HF and I have spoken and have an understanding. I respect his view point and I understand his feelings. I'm of the opinion that HF understands my point as well.

 

I never meant any disrespect towards David, and he has told me he did not feel disrespected by my words (I was given permission to state that). As a matter of fact, I've learned a bit about him, and I respect his stand.

 

I can see where some people might see my post as being over the line, but I don't think it was. I admit that I got the attention I was looking for, and that this issure has now probably gotten away from it's origional intent of David's view that we should be more considerate when posting.

 

Oddly enough through all this dialogue, I've learned quite a bit. I now realize that if someone's feelings seem trivial to some people including myself, they are very close to home for others. I am now much more aware that if members (of which I am one) have a problem with someone's verbage or attitude that it should be properly addressed. I can not lie to anyone and say that I will be adding keywords to the filtered list, because I won't be. I can't say that nobody's feelings will be hurt, because it will happen (inadvertently and not intentionally I hope). I can't say that from time to time members will leave us, because they will.

I can however, tell each and every member of Brewerfan.net that if you feel disrespected in any way, or if you feel personally attacked that you can contact me via inbox or my brewerfan email address and I will listen to you like a friend should, and I give everyone my word that I will try to fix the problem. I may not always be able to correct everything, but I'll try.

I've also learned that we should all feel comfortable in contacting moderators to point out trolls, problems, or insults. If somehow a moderator has been the originator of someone's woes, they can address any staff member and the problem will be resolved. If a staff member has been a naughty boy, ya gotta go to Brian.

 

Again, there was never any disrespect involved by any means. Like I said before, I appreciate David taking the time to post his thoughts and reason for his absence. I look forward to the day that we see posts by Huntsvillefan, and strangely enough, though I seemed to be the loudest, I think I learned the most. I tip my cap to the experience, I think it'll help me to help all of you better.