Hall of Fame Contemporary Era Ballot

[JimH5]

The Hall of Fame announced the 2023 Contemporary Era (1980-present) ballot today, and it is a redux of guys, some of whom have integrity issues that kept some BBWAA voters from electing them in the recent past.  

Albert Belle

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Don Mattingly

Fred McGriff

Dale Murphy

Rafael Palmeiro

Curt Schilling

We've talked backwards and forwards about these guys over the years, but they're back for more scrutiny.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I FOUND A STICK QUICK EVERYBODY WHERE'S THE DEAD HORSE

Seriously, though, I'm so over these conversations, particularly the PED guys. I just want them to get into the Hall in hopes people will at some point lose interest and stop talking about them.

[Brock Beauchamp]

With that said, Dale Murphy is an easy decision on this list. Vote him in, you don't even have to think hard about it. He doesn't carry the personal issues of most of this list and he was a better player than Mattingly.

[JimH5]

The HOF has dinked around with various Veterans Committees over the years, and their current election rules call for this 1980-present player group to be considered for 2023.  Then there's a 1980-present group of TBA Executives, Managers and Umpires to be considered for 2024.  And then all pre-1980 figures (including Negro Leaguers) to be considered for 2025.

So...at least after this upcoming vote, these 8 players and their contemporaries should fade from discussion for at least 2 more years.

[Outlander]

Probably should have been a cooling down period, I mean Clemens/Bonds just had their final year on the ballot January of this year.

[damuelle]

Just Schilling for me, against his own wishes apparently.

[Hopper]

If Bonds ever gets in, then Pete Rose MUST get in too. 

Personally, I hope Bonds doesn't make it, EVER!  If he does though, Pete Rose needs to get in too based on his playing days.  

[sveumrules]

6 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

With that said, Dale Murphy is an easy decision on this list. Vote him in, you don't even have to think hard about it. He doesn't carry the personal issues of most of this list and he was a better player than Mattingly.

Murphy was a class act for sure, but he’s kind of the anti-Baines with 41.2 WAR during his seven peak seasons, but only 5.3 WAR over his other eleven seasons.

Even his peak isn’t really that impressive at 19th among CF between Cesar Cedeno and Vada Pinson.

Outside of Bonds, the rest of the position players would be HoVG for me. I’d take Lou Whitaker or Kenny Lofton (or Dick Allen, but that’s a different era) over any of them.

[Brewcrew82]

Neither Bonds nor Clemens being in the HOF and having no legitimate shot at making in the future is a complete embarrassment to the writers, players, and so-called "stewards" of the game. Especially when you have almost-certain steroid users that are already in the HOF. You don't need to whitewash what they did, but you also can't tell the history of professional baseball without them, which is the basic job of a museum like the BBHOF. 

[Hopper]

Bonds rubbed it in the face of MLB.  Dudes head grew enormously, his shoe size even grew (assuming reports were true).  That doesn't happen to people in their 40's unless there is an immense weight gain.

He's a creep, an in your face cheater.  Everyone knew it, everyone knows it.

The embarrassment is that this guy was allowed to do what he did when everyone and their mother knew he was juiced up.

I take great joy every time he doesn't make it in.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

14 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Murphy was a class act for sure, but he’s kind of the anti-Baines with 41.2 WAR during his seven peak seasons, but only 5.3 WAR over his other eleven seasons.

Even his peak isn’t really that impressive at 19th among CF between Cesar Cedeno and Vada Pinson.

Outside of Bonds, the rest of the position players would be HoVG for me. I’d take Lou Whitaker or Kenny Lofton (or Dick Allen, but that’s a different era) over any of them.

You just caught my mistake. I was flipping the career war of Murphy and Lofton in my head. Lofton is the guy who deserves to be in. 

[sveumrules]

Congrats to Crime Dog on his election.

Heyman reporting he got 16 of 16 committee votes.

[Brewcrew82]

20 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Congrats to Crime Dog on his election.

Heyman reporting he got 16 of 16 committee votes.

Happy for McGriff. He deserves it. But it's a joke that Schilling didn't even get elected, as I was completely expecting Bonds and Clemens to fall short once again. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Happy for McGriff. He deserves it. But it's a joke that Schilling didn't even get elected, as I was completely expecting Bonds and Clemens to fall short once again. 

I'd elect Bonds and Clemens before Schilling. If we're going to exclude players based on personal life and/or behavior, give me the PED guys over Schilling any day of the week.

PS. I think Bonds and Clemens should be in. I also believe the clause that involves personal character should be removed and as much as I personally dislike the guy, Schilling should be in as well.

[UpandIn]

On 11/7/2022 at 11:32 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

With that said, Dale Murphy is an easy decision on this list. Vote him in, you don't even have to think hard about it. He doesn't carry the personal issues of most of this list and he was a better player than Mattingly.

Disregard. I need to read the thread all the way through before commenting. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by UpandIn

[UpandIn]

On 11/7/2022 at 6:04 PM, Hopper said:

If Bonds ever gets in, then Pete Rose MUST get in too. 

Personally, I hope Bonds doesn't make it, EVER!  If he does though, Pete Rose needs to get in too based on his playing days.  

I strongly disagree. 

Gambling on your own team didn't become swept under the rug, steriod use did...and while I don't condone Bonds use, I understand it. He's the best player of his generation, but he's watching Sammy Sosa average 60 HRs over nearly 6 years while all these other guys are putting up eye popping numbers...and he get frustrated, he takes the same substances that reportedly 75% of the league was on, puts up the most ridiculous numbers in the modern era(you could almost add up two of our best hitters and they'd barely beat his '04 OPS and OBP it was that ridiculous at 1.422 and .609 OBP).

He just started taking roids, then should have won an MVP and then rolled to 4 more. 

The guy had two HOF careers. And I get he was not likeable, but a lot of players weren't. 

I am curious though, why do you draw that line with Bonds and Rose and not...Clemens or others who've gotten in while being known steroid users? 

[Brock Beauchamp]

14 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

I strongly disagree. 

Gambling on your own team didn't become swept under the rug, steriod use did...and while I don't condone Bonds use, I understand it. He's the best player of his generation, but he's watching Sammy Sosa average 60 HRs over nearly 6 years while all these other guys are putting up eye popping numbers...and he get frustrated, he takes the same substances that reportedly 75% of the league was on, puts up the most ridiculous numbers in the modern era(you could almost add up two of our best hitters and they'd barely beat his '04 OPS and OBP it was that ridiculous at 1.422 and .609 OBP).

He just started taking roids, then should have won an MVP and then rolled to 4 more. 

The guy had two HOF careers. And I get he was not likeable, but a lot of players weren't.

I am curious though, why do you draw that line with Bonds and Rose and not...Clemens or others who've gotten in while being known steroid users? 

Agreed 100%. Gambling is explicitly pointed out as a non-starter for baseball. BUT with that said, I would have let Rose in before he began his 2000-ish era of just being an ass *yet again*. The guy just can't get out of his own way. Every time baseball comes close to letting him back in, he does just cringe-worthy stuff again.

Which is why I believe the personality clause needs to be removed from the Hall. We're in way too sticky of territory to ask the BBWAA to make these delicate decisions over and over again.

Remove that clause and base it on performance, then put those issues on the plaque in Cooperstown. Remove the decision from writers and put the best players in the hall, then call out their issues and let viewers decide where they land in historical context.

Ty Cobb is in the hall. If we let that guy in (and I know maybe he's not as bad as history portrays), then we need to just let the best players in and sort it all out afterward.

[MVP2110]

There are numerous players already in the Hall who took Steroids, Greenies, etc.

 

Unless we are removing those players then Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc. should be in

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, MVP2110 said:

There are numerous players already in the Hall who took Steroids, Greenies, etc.

Unless we are removing those players then Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc. should be in

One of the most baffling things is that the Hall eagerly voted in a known PED user, Ortiz, without batting an eye about it.

[UpandIn]

19 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Agreed 100%. Gambling is explicitly pointed out as a non-starter for baseball. BUT with that said, I would have let Rose in before he began his 2000-ish era of just being an ass *yet again*. The guy just can't get out of his own way. Every time baseball comes close to letting him back in, he does just cringe-worthy stuff again.

Which is why I believe the personality clause needs to be removed from the Hall. We're in way too sticky of territory to ask the BBWAA to make these delicate decisions over and over again.

Remove that clause and base it on performance, then put those issues on the plaque in Cooperstown. Remove the decision from writers and put the best players in the hall, then call out their issues and let viewers decide where they land in historical context.

Ty Cobb is in the hall. If we let that guy in (and I know maybe he's not as bad as history portrays), then we need to just let the best players in and sort it all out afterward.

There was a time when I thought Rose should get back into Baseball and the HOF...I don't know if it was him being a clown or why my opinion changed...but it was probably him being a clown. Also, slightly overrated. 

The second one gets me triggered! Or I guess as close to "triggered" as anything does. I don't even know if Cobb was a bad guy. It SOUNDS like he was actually a good dude. Family was forced to move for being abolitionists earlier, he was an advocate of integrating. Was friends with Jackie, got to know him personally I believe. The story about him beating a black bellhop to death was apparently a teammate punching a white bellhop(not to death). 

The stories by the old drunk who just made a bunch of stuff up REALLY skewed the perception of Cobb. 

[UpandIn]

8 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

One of the most baffling things is that the Hall eagerly voted in a known PED user, Ortiz, without batting an eye about it.

Agreed. Ortiz was an all-time great post-season performer, but it took a decade to get Edgar into the HOF...and Ortiz was a no-brainer?

10 hours ago, MVP2110 said:

There are numerous players already in the Hall who took Steroids, Greenies, etc.

 

Unless we are removing those players then Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc. should be in

Yup. Put the best from that era in. I'd probably want to leave Sosa out of it, but then you get into the whole being too subjective about it. 

Steroids was implicitly allowed. I'll disagree how much Selig was complicit, but owners, the MLBPA, they didn't care. There's a term that I can't remember...it's on the top of my head, but I can't come up with it, but we use it in all area's. We measure people by today's standards. Not to get political(this shouldn't be too controversial...I hope) but we need to look at how people were using the standards of their era. Clemens, Bonds? C'mon...

Where it might start to get a bit tricky would be Arod. He kinda kept going after we all agreed steroid use was not acceptable.

 

[clancyphile]

19 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Agreed 100%. Gambling is explicitly pointed out as a non-starter for baseball. BUT with that said, I would have let Rose in before he began his 2000-ish era of just being an ass *yet again*. The guy just can't get out of his own way. Every time baseball comes close to letting him back in, he does just cringe-worthy stuff again.

Which is why I believe the personality clause needs to be removed from the Hall. We're in way too sticky of territory to ask the BBWAA to make these delicate decisions over and over again.

Remove that clause and base it on performance, then put those issues on the plaque in Cooperstown. Remove the decision from writers and put the best players in the hall, then call out their issues and let viewers decide where they land in historical context.

Ty Cobb is in the hall. If we let that guy in (and I know maybe he's not as bad as history portrays), then we need to just let the best players in and sort it all out afterward.

The personal conduct became a joke when they let Gaylord Perry in.

He wrote a book about throwing the spitball, and baseball took YEARS to even punish him.

Put Bond and Clemens in, acknowledge reports of steroid use. Otherwise, eject Gaylord Perry.

[Sixtolezcano]

Interesting ESPN article regarding Bonds and Clemens career projection sans ped usage.

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32806209/barry-bonds-roger-clemens-far-less-great-subtract-ped-factor