Article: Young Third Basemen the Brewers Should Target in a Trade

[jay87shot]

 

Willy is a good SS, last year he was worth +9 runs, for the rest of his career he has been around slightly above average. The case would be that if Turang is really a plus defender at SS, we wouldn't lose anything defensively and then we would improve 3rd tremendously by putting Adames there. When we potentially lose Adames it would be an easier transition because Turang wouldn't have to move.

[jay87shot]

 

Willy is a good SS, last year he was worth +9 runs, for the rest of his career he has been around slightly above average. The case would be that if Turang is really a plus defender at SS, we wouldn't lose anything defensively and then we would improve 3rd tremendously by putting Adames there. When we potentially lose Adames it would be an easier transition because Turang wouldn't have to move.

[jay87shot]

2 hours ago, Robocaller said:

Diaz would be great, except he becomes a FA the same time Burnes/Woodruff do.

Moving Adames off SS is ludicrous. He's a quality SS and he's only going to be around for 1-2 more years.

I don't mind the 2 years until FA to much, I think Diaz wouldn't be crazy expensive in trade value and could be a guy that if he plays solid an extension wouldn't be to overbearing.

[jay87shot]

2 hours ago, Robocaller said:

Diaz would be great, except he becomes a FA the same time Burnes/Woodruff do.

Moving Adames off SS is ludicrous. He's a quality SS and he's only going to be around for 1-2 more years.

I don't mind the 2 years until FA to much, I think Diaz wouldn't be crazy expensive in trade value and could be a guy that if he plays solid an extension wouldn't be to overbearing.

[Redd Vencher]

A guy who put up a 111 wRC+ 4.4 fWAR 6.2 bWAR over the last 2 seasons isn't a hole at 3B. We've basically got Mike Moustakas over there right now. This isn't to say I'm against doing better than that at 3B as I proposed acquiring Yandy Diaz to take the 50-55% of the innings over there in my roster blueprint, but it's silly to look at it as a hole.

[Redd Vencher]

A guy who put up a 111 wRC+ 4.4 fWAR 6.2 bWAR over the last 2 seasons isn't a hole at 3B. We've basically got Mike Moustakas over there right now. This isn't to say I'm against doing better than that at 3B as I proposed acquiring Yandy Diaz to take the 50-55% of the innings over there in my roster blueprint, but it's silly to look at it as a hole.

[Robocaller]

14 hours ago, UpandIn said:

I feel like we've gone in this circle a WHOLE lot. 

What would make it ludicrous? Do you NOT believe he can handle it? Is there any suggestion that Turang is not an elite defender, primarily at SS?

So if it makes the Brewers better to go with Adames(3B), Turang(SS) and Wong/Urias(2B) then that's what you should do. 

As is repeatedly pointed out, the 3B will be lining up close to where the SS plays when they're straight up vs lefties. 

And if you're right and he'll only be here for 1-2 more years, then it makes more sense to keep Turang at his natural position, to keep Wong/Urias at positions their better suited for and sliding Adames over where he can make use of his big arm and great range. 

Yeah, he's a quality SS. So he'd almost certainly be a quality 3B...and it'd sold our 3B hole, particularly if Turang is able to just be a .270/.330/.380 type hitter with plus defense who can steal some bases. 

You're right that this discussion seems circular and pointless.

IMO, it's ludicrous to move one of your best players off his preferred position, which he plays well, for a prospect who is no guarantee to earn a full-time starting position in 2023. In a computer game, sure, move them around like they're not people, but they are people. In the real world, you don't jerk your best performers around. 
If Turang had 100+ ABs in the majors at the end of the year, and hit .270+, sure, then he's proven something. But he hasn't. Judging by past rookies, he has a good chance he won't be able to stick in the majors all year. And it won't hurt him  (or the Brewers) to play multiple positions for a year or two.

 

 

[Robocaller]

14 hours ago, UpandIn said:

I feel like we've gone in this circle a WHOLE lot. 

What would make it ludicrous? Do you NOT believe he can handle it? Is there any suggestion that Turang is not an elite defender, primarily at SS?

So if it makes the Brewers better to go with Adames(3B), Turang(SS) and Wong/Urias(2B) then that's what you should do. 

As is repeatedly pointed out, the 3B will be lining up close to where the SS plays when they're straight up vs lefties. 

And if you're right and he'll only be here for 1-2 more years, then it makes more sense to keep Turang at his natural position, to keep Wong/Urias at positions their better suited for and sliding Adames over where he can make use of his big arm and great range. 

Yeah, he's a quality SS. So he'd almost certainly be a quality 3B...and it'd sold our 3B hole, particularly if Turang is able to just be a .270/.330/.380 type hitter with plus defense who can steal some bases. 

You're right that this discussion seems circular and pointless.

IMO, it's ludicrous to move one of your best players off his preferred position, which he plays well, for a prospect who is no guarantee to earn a full-time starting position in 2023. In a computer game, sure, move them around like they're not people, but they are people. In the real world, you don't jerk your best performers around. 
If Turang had 100+ ABs in the majors at the end of the year, and hit .270+, sure, then he's proven something. But he hasn't. Judging by past rookies, he has a good chance he won't be able to stick in the majors all year. And it won't hurt him  (or the Brewers) to play multiple positions for a year or two.

 

 

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, jay87shot said:

 

Willy is a good SS, last year he was worth +9 runs, for the rest of his career he has been around slightly above average. The case would be that if Turang is really a plus defender at SS, we wouldn't lose anything defensively and then we would improve 3rd tremendously by putting Adames there. When we potentially lose Adames it would be an easier transition because Turang wouldn't have to move.

This is exactly the argument. Adames and Turang are going to be starting next year(most likely). 

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability. Adames at 3B, especially with the new rules regarding the shift...is not a waste defensively. 

I also don't think you're "jerking" Adames around by asking him to move over a few feet. You field the ball, you throw the ball. It's not like you're asking a CB to switch to WRer, or asking a Catcher to move to pitcher like Carlos Marmol. 

This is the same team that moved Travis Shaw to 2B. 

Is the concern that Adames will struggle because of this? Or that Turang's not proven? Because if it's the prior, we've seen plenty of good defensive SSs move to 3B and thrive. If it's Turang, well...you always have the option of moving Adames back. I doubt he's going to forget how to play defense. 
You're likely going to start Urias, Adames and Turang next year in the IF. Why not line them up in the position that maximizes all of their strengths the most? Not to mention, Turang's likely our SS of the future while Adames may be traded in a year.

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, jay87shot said:

 

Willy is a good SS, last year he was worth +9 runs, for the rest of his career he has been around slightly above average. The case would be that if Turang is really a plus defender at SS, we wouldn't lose anything defensively and then we would improve 3rd tremendously by putting Adames there. When we potentially lose Adames it would be an easier transition because Turang wouldn't have to move.

This is exactly the argument. Adames and Turang are going to be starting next year(most likely). 

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability. Adames at 3B, especially with the new rules regarding the shift...is not a waste defensively. 

I also don't think you're "jerking" Adames around by asking him to move over a few feet. You field the ball, you throw the ball. It's not like you're asking a CB to switch to WRer, or asking a Catcher to move to pitcher like Carlos Marmol. 

This is the same team that moved Travis Shaw to 2B. 

Is the concern that Adames will struggle because of this? Or that Turang's not proven? Because if it's the prior, we've seen plenty of good defensive SSs move to 3B and thrive. If it's Turang, well...you always have the option of moving Adames back. I doubt he's going to forget how to play defense. 
You're likely going to start Urias, Adames and Turang next year in the IF. Why not line them up in the position that maximizes all of their strengths the most? Not to mention, Turang's likely our SS of the future while Adames may be traded in a year.

[Brewcrew82]

38 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

This is exactly the argument. Adames and Turang are going to be starting next year(most likely). 

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability. Adames at 3B, especially with the new rules regarding the shift...is not a waste defensively. 

I also don't think you're "jerking" Adames around by asking him to move over a few feet. You field the ball, you throw the ball. It's not like you're asking a CB to switch to WRer, or asking a Catcher to move to pitcher like Carlos Marmol. 

This is the same team that moved Travis Shaw to 2B. 

Is the concern that Adames will struggle because of this? Or that Turang's not proven? Because if it's the prior, we've seen plenty of good defensive SSs move to 3B and thrive. If it's Turang, well...you always have the option of moving Adames back. I doubt he's going to forget how to play defense. 
You're likely going to start Urias, Adames and Turang next year in the IF. Why not line them up in the position that maximizes all of their strengths the most? Not to mention, Turang's likely our SS of the future while Adames may be traded in a year.

Turang at 2B is a "waste" defensively? Did we not watch our infield defense suffer tremendously this year due to Kolten Wong's "exploits"? If he can bring 60-grade defense to the 2B position, then we'll have two elite defenders up the middle and our entire defense/run prevention unit will improve as a result. I'm not sure the difference between Urias at 3B and Urias at 2B is enough to want to mess with that. Not to mention Adames' and Turang's offensive profiles are probably better suited for SS and 2B than 3B and SS. 

[Brewcrew82]

38 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

This is exactly the argument. Adames and Turang are going to be starting next year(most likely). 

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability. Adames at 3B, especially with the new rules regarding the shift...is not a waste defensively. 

I also don't think you're "jerking" Adames around by asking him to move over a few feet. You field the ball, you throw the ball. It's not like you're asking a CB to switch to WRer, or asking a Catcher to move to pitcher like Carlos Marmol. 

This is the same team that moved Travis Shaw to 2B. 

Is the concern that Adames will struggle because of this? Or that Turang's not proven? Because if it's the prior, we've seen plenty of good defensive SSs move to 3B and thrive. If it's Turang, well...you always have the option of moving Adames back. I doubt he's going to forget how to play defense. 
You're likely going to start Urias, Adames and Turang next year in the IF. Why not line them up in the position that maximizes all of their strengths the most? Not to mention, Turang's likely our SS of the future while Adames may be traded in a year.

Turang at 2B is a "waste" defensively? Did we not watch our infield defense suffer tremendously this year due to Kolten Wong's "exploits"? If he can bring 60-grade defense to the 2B position, then we'll have two elite defenders up the middle and our entire defense/run prevention unit will improve as a result. I'm not sure the difference between Urias at 3B and Urias at 2B is enough to want to mess with that. Not to mention Adames' and Turang's offensive profiles are probably better suited for SS and 2B than 3B and SS. 

[UpandIn]

4 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Turang at 2B is a "waste" defensively? Did we not watch our infield defense suffer tremendously this year due to Kolten Wong's "exploits"? If he can bring 60-grade defense to the 2B position, then we'll have two elite defenders up the middle and our entire defense/run prevention unit will improve as a result. I'm not sure the difference between Urias at 3B and Urias at 2B is enough to want to mess with that. Not to mention Adames' and Turang's offensive profiles are probably better suited for SS and 2B than 3B and SS. 

Quote

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability

Turang is a SS. An elite defensive SS. So yes, I think it'd be a "BIT" of a waste to play him at 2nd. Wong has nothing to do with this unless he's brought back next year after an abnormally bad season defensively at 2B. So...yeah, I saw it. I just don't see the relevance. 

Urias struggles with his throws more than anything. 2B easier throws than SS. Urias +4 OAA at 2B, -1 at 3B, -4 at SS. 
So I do think his defense is enough better to justify it. 

And if you're playing the same 3 players at 3 positions, I'm 100% indifferent to who profiles better at what position offensively. It makes literally zero difference. 

Seems like the only reason or reasonS you don't do this is if A-You don't think Adames can handle it. 
B-Because Adames doesn't want to because it could hurt his value.

I don't buy either. I think he'd be an elite defender at 3B. Arguably better at 3B than SS with his arm strength.

[UpandIn]

4 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Turang at 2B is a "waste" defensively? Did we not watch our infield defense suffer tremendously this year due to Kolten Wong's "exploits"? If he can bring 60-grade defense to the 2B position, then we'll have two elite defenders up the middle and our entire defense/run prevention unit will improve as a result. I'm not sure the difference between Urias at 3B and Urias at 2B is enough to want to mess with that. Not to mention Adames' and Turang's offensive profiles are probably better suited for SS and 2B than 3B and SS. 

Quote

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability

Turang is a SS. An elite defensive SS. So yes, I think it'd be a "BIT" of a waste to play him at 2nd. Wong has nothing to do with this unless he's brought back next year after an abnormally bad season defensively at 2B. So...yeah, I saw it. I just don't see the relevance. 

Urias struggles with his throws more than anything. 2B easier throws than SS. Urias +4 OAA at 2B, -1 at 3B, -4 at SS. 
So I do think his defense is enough better to justify it. 

And if you're playing the same 3 players at 3 positions, I'm 100% indifferent to who profiles better at what position offensively. It makes literally zero difference. 

Seems like the only reason or reasonS you don't do this is if A-You don't think Adames can handle it. 
B-Because Adames doesn't want to because it could hurt his value.

I don't buy either. I think he'd be an elite defender at 3B. Arguably better at 3B than SS with his arm strength.

[Brewcrew82]

23 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Turang is a SS. An elite defensive SS. So yes, I think it'd be a "BIT" of a waste to play him at 2nd. Wong has nothing to do with this unless he's brought back next year after an abnormally bad season defensively at 2B. So...yeah, I saw it. I just don't see the relevance. 

Urias struggles with his throws more than anything. 2B easier throws than SS. Urias +4 OAA at 2B, -1 at 3B, -4 at SS. 
So I do think his defense is enough better to justify it. 

And if you're playing the same 3 players at 3 positions, I'm 100% indifferent to who profiles better at what position offensively. It makes literally zero difference. 

Seems like the only reason or reasonS you don't do this is if A-You don't think Adames can handle it. 
B-Because Adames doesn't want to because it could hurt his value.

I don't buy either. I think he'd be an elite defender at 3B. Arguably better at 3B than SS with his arm strength.

It just don't see that much upside to doing it. Urias is fine at 3B. Not elite, but he's far from a butcher. Meanwhile, we KNOW Adames is an elite SS. And we're 99.9% sure Turang would be an elite 2B. But it's a bit of a stretch to automatically assume that Adames will be elite at 3B when he hasn't played a single inning at the position since 2013. And I don't think Adames would want to do it in the absence of a contract extension given how much elite SS's get paid these days. 

[Brewcrew82]

23 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Turang is a SS. An elite defensive SS. So yes, I think it'd be a "BIT" of a waste to play him at 2nd. Wong has nothing to do with this unless he's brought back next year after an abnormally bad season defensively at 2B. So...yeah, I saw it. I just don't see the relevance. 

Urias struggles with his throws more than anything. 2B easier throws than SS. Urias +4 OAA at 2B, -1 at 3B, -4 at SS. 
So I do think his defense is enough better to justify it. 

And if you're playing the same 3 players at 3 positions, I'm 100% indifferent to who profiles better at what position offensively. It makes literally zero difference. 

Seems like the only reason or reasonS you don't do this is if A-You don't think Adames can handle it. 
B-Because Adames doesn't want to because it could hurt his value.

I don't buy either. I think he'd be an elite defender at 3B. Arguably better at 3B than SS with his arm strength.

It just don't see that much upside to doing it. Urias is fine at 3B. Not elite, but he's far from a butcher. Meanwhile, we KNOW Adames is an elite SS. And we're 99.9% sure Turang would be an elite 2B. But it's a bit of a stretch to automatically assume that Adames will be elite at 3B when he hasn't played a single inning at the position since 2013. And I don't think Adames would want to do it in the absence of a contract extension given how much elite SS's get paid these days. 

[UpandIn]

20 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

It just don't see that much upside to doing it. Urias is fine at 3B. Not elite, but he's far from a butcher. Meanwhile, we KNOW Adames is an elite SS. And we're 99.9% sure Turang would be an elite 2B. But it's a bit of a stretch to automatically assume that Adames will be elite at 3B when he hasn't played a single inning at the position since 2013. And I don't think Adames would want to do it in the absence of a contract extension given how much elite SS's get paid these days. 

Well...Urias may be fine at 2B, but he's much better at 2B. Maybe even elite if this years production is an indication. 

And the logic of saying Turang would be an elite 2B, but we don't know about Adames at 3B doesn't really track with me. 3B is the easier position. It requires less range...but sometimes more difficult throws. It actually leans into his wheelhouse and is likely where he ends up long term(if he plays long enough for his athleticism to deteriorate enough while still being productive enough offensively). 

And AGAIN, 3B moving forward is going to be more like playing SS in the past with the shift limited. So lefties, you'll have Adames swung over near where a SS would lineup straight away, Turang right up the middle, Urias on the edge of the grass at 2B.

It is possible Adames isn't happy with it. I'm more concerned with the Brewers than Adames preferences though and he doesn't strike me as the type to throw a tantrum or sulk. 

I guess we just disagree on this. 

[UpandIn]

20 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

It just don't see that much upside to doing it. Urias is fine at 3B. Not elite, but he's far from a butcher. Meanwhile, we KNOW Adames is an elite SS. And we're 99.9% sure Turang would be an elite 2B. But it's a bit of a stretch to automatically assume that Adames will be elite at 3B when he hasn't played a single inning at the position since 2013. And I don't think Adames would want to do it in the absence of a contract extension given how much elite SS's get paid these days. 

Well...Urias may be fine at 2B, but he's much better at 2B. Maybe even elite if this years production is an indication. 

And the logic of saying Turang would be an elite 2B, but we don't know about Adames at 3B doesn't really track with me. 3B is the easier position. It requires less range...but sometimes more difficult throws. It actually leans into his wheelhouse and is likely where he ends up long term(if he plays long enough for his athleticism to deteriorate enough while still being productive enough offensively). 

And AGAIN, 3B moving forward is going to be more like playing SS in the past with the shift limited. So lefties, you'll have Adames swung over near where a SS would lineup straight away, Turang right up the middle, Urias on the edge of the grass at 2B.

It is possible Adames isn't happy with it. I'm more concerned with the Brewers than Adames preferences though and he doesn't strike me as the type to throw a tantrum or sulk. 

I guess we just disagree on this. 

[Brewcrew82]

15 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Well...Urias may be fine at 2B, but he's much better at 2B. Maybe even elite if this years production is an indication. 

And the logic of saying Turang would be an elite 2B, but we don't know about Adames at 3B doesn't really track with me. 3B is the easier position. It requires less range...but sometimes more difficult throws. It actually leans into his wheelhouse and is likely where he ends up long term(if he plays long enough for his athleticism to deteriorate enough while still being productive enough offensively). 

And AGAIN, 3B moving forward is going to be more like playing SS in the past with the shift limited. So lefties, you'll have Adames swung over near where a SS would lineup straight away, Turang right up the middle, Urias on the edge of the grass at 2B.

It is possible Adames isn't happy with it. I'm more concerned with the Brewers than Adames preferences though and he doesn't strike me as the type to throw a tantrum or sulk. 

 

You'd be surprised what players will do when there's millions of dollars on the line....Our main concern needs to be getting better defense from the 2B position. Wong absolutely killed us at times this year and was a major part of our overall decline on defense. 

[Redd Vencher]

50 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Turang is a SS. An elite defensive SS. So yes, I think it'd be a "BIT" of a waste to play him at 2nd. Wong has nothing to do with this unless he's brought back next year after an abnormally bad season defensively at 2B. So...yeah, I saw it. I just don't see the relevance. 

Urias struggles with his throws more than anything. 2B easier throws than SS. Urias +4 OAA at 2B, -1 at 3B, -4 at SS. 
So I do think his defense is enough better to justify it. 

And if you're playing the same 3 players at 3 positions, I'm 100% indifferent to who profiles better at what position offensively. It makes literally zero difference. 

Seems like the only reason or reasonS you don't do this is if A-You don't think Adames can handle it. 
B-Because Adames doesn't want to because it could hurt his value.

I don't buy either. I think he'd be an elite defender at 3B. Arguably better at 3B than SS with his arm strength.

With any defensive metric you need about 3000 innings before they stabilize. He has less than 1200 innings at 3B in his career, which isn't even a full season. +10 DRS -0.1 UZR -3 OAA. 

[Redd Vencher]

50 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Turang is a SS. An elite defensive SS. So yes, I think it'd be a "BIT" of a waste to play him at 2nd. Wong has nothing to do with this unless he's brought back next year after an abnormally bad season defensively at 2B. So...yeah, I saw it. I just don't see the relevance. 

Urias struggles with his throws more than anything. 2B easier throws than SS. Urias +4 OAA at 2B, -1 at 3B, -4 at SS. 
So I do think his defense is enough better to justify it. 

And if you're playing the same 3 players at 3 positions, I'm 100% indifferent to who profiles better at what position offensively. It makes literally zero difference. 

Seems like the only reason or reasonS you don't do this is if A-You don't think Adames can handle it. 
B-Because Adames doesn't want to because it could hurt his value.

I don't buy either. I think he'd be an elite defender at 3B. Arguably better at 3B than SS with his arm strength.

With any defensive metric you need about 3000 innings before they stabilize. He has less than 1200 innings at 3B in his career, which isn't even a full season. +10 DRS -0.1 UZR -3 OAA. 

[UpandIn]

1 minute ago, Brewcrew82 said:

You'd be surprised what players will do when there's millions of dollars on the line....

Right. But I don't think there are millions of dollars on the line. 

If anything, if he plays 3B at an elite level, I think his value would go up. 

Trea Turner moved to 2B(and played better there than he did at SS which as mentioned in his FA write up may assuage teams concerns about how he ages and loses his strongest physical attribute, his speed). 

Adames will hit FA at the same age roughly. I doubt team are going to say, "well, he was an elite defensive SS when he was 26, but can he do it at...29?"

Plus, he'd almost certainly get time at SS as I mentioned. 

[UpandIn]

1 minute ago, Brewcrew82 said:

You'd be surprised what players will do when there's millions of dollars on the line....

Right. But I don't think there are millions of dollars on the line. 

If anything, if he plays 3B at an elite level, I think his value would go up. 

Trea Turner moved to 2B(and played better there than he did at SS which as mentioned in his FA write up may assuage teams concerns about how he ages and loses his strongest physical attribute, his speed). 

Adames will hit FA at the same age roughly. I doubt team are going to say, "well, he was an elite defensive SS when he was 26, but can he do it at...29?"

Plus, he'd almost certainly get time at SS as I mentioned. 

[UpandIn]

3 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

With any defensive metric you need about 3000 innings before they stabilize. He has less than 1200 innings at 3B in his career, which isn't even a full season. +10 DRS -0.1 UZR -3 OAA. 

Ok...but he barely has 3000 career innings at any position.

So we have what we have to go on. The Brewers saw him struggling at SS, they made a trade. 

We saw him play 2B last year, he was better there.

His prospect profile showed that he had a fringe arm.

I don't think you need to give him 3000 innings at 3B because you conclude he's likely a better fit for 3B. 

[UpandIn]

3 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

With any defensive metric you need about 3000 innings before they stabilize. He has less than 1200 innings at 3B in his career, which isn't even a full season. +10 DRS -0.1 UZR -3 OAA. 

Ok...but he barely has 3000 career innings at any position.

So we have what we have to go on. The Brewers saw him struggling at SS, they made a trade. 

We saw him play 2B last year, he was better there.

His prospect profile showed that he had a fringe arm.

I don't think you need to give him 3000 innings at 3B because you conclude he's likely a better fit for 3B.