Matt Arnold elevated to president of baseball operations, David Stearns moves into advisory role

[Sixtolezcano]

2 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Things will either be better, worse, or about the same.

I'm not saying that each of the three options have a 33.3% chance of happening, but none of them have a zero or one hundred percent chance either.

Who really knows what will happen, but when you most likely take a step down in the quality of your GM and the team is trending to offload their top talent, a step back would be more probable.

[Brewcrew82]

15 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

 

The farm system ratings don't mean much to me, they're a sportswriters opinion of a snap shot in time. I'd also beg to differ as the Brewers system was plenty loaded in 2007: Gallardo, Braun, Cain, Michael Brantley and Jeffress I've got $50 that says the Brewers don't have five future  all-stars in their system right now two of whom will play 14 years in the majors and two more who will have 10+ year careers. 

That farm system also didn't have an 18 year old phenom who is trending to becoming the best prospect in the game in short order. 

Frelick is almost to where Braun was, though the power obviously puts Braun ahead. And Mitchell, Wiemer 2022 > Cain and Brantley in 2007. Jeffress was a flamethrower who ended up making one all-star appearance as a reliever, so I would compare him to an Abner Uribe. And that doesn't take into account guys like Quero, Turang, etc. 

Bottom line, is the farm system is becoming increasingly loaded and is very comparable to that 2007 group, if not superior to it. 

[Sixtolezcano]

4 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

That farm system also didn't have an 18 year old phenom who is trending to becoming the best prospect in the game in short order. 

I hope you’re right about Chourio, but for every Julio Rodriguez and Ken Griffey Jr. there are twice (or more) as many Glenn Braggs and Rickey Weeks.

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

I hope you’re right about Chourio, but for every Julio Rodriguez and Ken Griffey Jr. there are twice (or more) as many Glenn Braggs and Rickey Weeks.

Those guys didn't do what Chourio is doing at 18 years old. They were still in high school and then proceeded to spend a couple years in college before getting drafted. 

Chourio is on the Griffey, Soto, Rodriguez, etc. trend right now. Doesn't mean he's a certainty, but those kinds of players don't come around often. 

 

[UpandIn]

7 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

So what is it that you're saying? I said he was a competent, he made some nice moves, but also made his share of mistakes, and wasn't among the very best executives in the game (Friedmann, Cashman, Beane, Antonetti, Mozeliak) 

I feel like I said it in my post. "competent" is kinda a silly understatement. 

Quote

If you want to give them credit for overhauling the way they develop pitching, then they also have to own the fact Stearns was incapable of  developing an everyday regular position player during his tenure.

Sal Frelick, Garrett Mitchell, Joey Wiemer, Brice Turang, Tyler Black, Jackson Chourio...I'd say they're doing a pretty good job of developing hitters.

Quote

The farm system ratings don't mean much to me, they're a sportswriters opinion of a snap shot in time. I'd also beg to differ as the Brewers system was plenty loaded in 2007: Gallardo, Braun, Cain, Michael Brantley and Jeffress I've got $50 that says the Brewers don't have five future  all-stars in their system right now two of whom will play 14 years in the majors and two more who will have 10+ year careers. 

I didn't say a word about their "ratings." I specifically said "talent." 

And you went back to a farm system that'd be....16 years old if you're including the farm system going into the 2007 season with Ryan Braun...and that you needed to do that and then come up with these arbitrary measures to quantify them kinda makes my point. 

I'll take that bet though and we'll work it out in 25 years though...?

[clancyphile]

6 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

I hope you’re right about Chourio, but for every Julio Rodriguez and Ken Griffey Jr. there are twice (or more) as many Glenn Braggs and Rickey Weeks.

Weeks was arguably the best second baseman the Brewers ever had. Shorted career due to injuries, but despite that, nobody even comes close - and that's even if you count Molitor's 1978-1980 at second base.

[Sixtolezcano]

 

11 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Those guys didn't do what Chourio is doing at 18 years old. They were still in high school and then proceeded to spend a couple years in college before getting drafted. 

Chourio is on the Griffey, Soto, Rodriguez, etc. trend right now. Doesn't mean he's a certainty, but those kinds of players don't come around often. 

 

Ken Griffey Jr. stats look similar. 

Year	Age	AgeDif	Tm	Lg	Lev	Aff	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1987	17	-3.9	Bellingham	NORW	A-	SEA	54	228	182	43	57	9	1	14	40	13	6	44	42	.313	.445	.604	1.049	110		0	1	1	3
1988	18		2 Teams	2 Lgs	A-AA	SEA	75	324	280	60	91	18	4	13	52	36	11	39	51	.325	.415	.557	.972	156	3	4	1	0	5
1988	18	-5.8	Vermont	EL	AA	SEA	17	68	61	10	17	5	1	2	10	4	2	5	12	.279	.353	.492	.845	30		2	0	0	0
1988	18	-4.9	San Bernardino	CALL	A	SEA	58	256	219	50	74	13	3	11	42	32	9	34	39	.338	.431	.575	1.007	126	3	2	1	0	5

 

[UpandIn]

2 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

 

Ken Griffey Jr. stats look similar. 

Year	Age	AgeDif	Tm	Lg	Lev	Aff	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1987	17	-3.9	Bellingham	NORW	A-	SEA	54	228	182	43	57	9	1	14	40	13	6	44	42	.313	.445	.604	1.049	110		0	1	1	3
1988	18		2 Teams	2 Lgs	A-AA	SEA	75	324	280	60	91	18	4	13	52	36	11	39	51	.325	.415	.557	.972	156	3	4	1	0	5
1988	18	-5.8	Vermont	EL	AA	SEA	17	68	61	10	17	5	1	2	10	4	2	5	12	.279	.353	.492	.845	30		2	0	0	0
1988	18	-4.9	San Bernardino	CALL	A	SEA	58	256	219	50	74	13	3	11	42	32	9	34	39	.338	.431	.575	1.007	126	3	2	1	0	5

 

I believe he was talking about Weeks and Braggs. The guys who you cited as NOT making it...which is why he pointed out that they weren't even in the minors at that point(as opposed to Jr, Soto and Julio Rodriguez). 

Those guys are...well I wouldn't put Chourio in that group, but Ronald Acuna Jr or a tier or 3 below all time greats(and Julio Rodriguez)...

 

[Brewcrew82]

9 minutes ago, Sixtolezcano said:

 

Ken Griffey Jr. stats look similar. 

Year	Age	AgeDif	Tm	Lg	Lev	Aff	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
1987	17	-3.9	Bellingham	NORW	A-	SEA	54	228	182	43	57	9	1	14	40	13	6	44	42	.313	.445	.604	1.049	110		0	1	1	3
1988	18		2 Teams	2 Lgs	A-AA	SEA	75	324	280	60	91	18	4	13	52	36	11	39	51	.325	.415	.557	.972	156	3	4	1	0	5
1988	18	-5.8	Vermont	EL	AA	SEA	17	68	61	10	17	5	1	2	10	4	2	5	12	.279	.353	.492	.845	30		2	0	0	0
1988	18	-4.9	San Bernardino	CALL	A	SEA	58	256	219	50	74	13	3	11	42	32	9	34	39	.338	.431	.575	1.007	126	3	2	1	0	5

 

I was referring to Braggs and Weeks. Griffey is obviously one of the standard-bearers (if not THE standard-bearer) for a teenage phenom.

[StearnsFTW]

4 hours ago, SeaBass said:

I'm not convinced he's 100% going to the Mets, it's certainly a possibility. He will be a free agent after this season and would potentially have some nice options depending on situations around the league.

Or maybe it is the Mets and this advisory role is the first step to a trade.

If I'm the Red Sox I'm throwing whatever the equivalent is now of the Billy Beane offer.

 

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

I believe he was talking about Weeks and Braggs. The guys who you cited as NOT making it...which is why he pointed out that they weren't even in the minors at that point(as opposed to Jr, Soto and Julio Rodriguez). 

Those guys are...well I wouldn't put Chourio in that group, but Ronald Acuna Jr or a tier or 3 below all time greats(and Julio Rodriguez)...

 

I don't see why he wouldn't be in Soto's class, either, ATM, considering he progressed further than Soto did at age 18.

[Nola Beery]

5 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Guessing most will be pretty indifferent about this.

Some (e.g., me) will say they were not much impressed by Stearns this season, but know very little about Arnold. I'm hopeful anyway. 

[UpandIn]

11 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I don't see why he wouldn't be in Soto's class, either, ATM, considering he progressed further than Soto did at age 18.

I'm not just not putting ANY prospect in a class with Soto or Griffey Jr.

[Brewcrew82]

3 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

I'm not just not putting ANY prospect in a class with Soto or Griffey Jr.

Huh? Both Soto and Chourio put up a wRC+ of 170 at age 18 in low-A, with Soto's production coming in significantly fewer at-bats than Chourio. 

If you want to talk about a class of its own, Griffey Jr (1.049 OPS in A- at 17!) and Alex Rodriguez (.948 OPS in AAA at 18) are probably that. 

[Jopal78]

1 hour ago, UpandIn said:

I feel like I said it in my post. "competent" is kinda a silly understatement. 

Sal Frelick, Garrett Mitchell, Joey Wiemer, Brice Turang, Tyler Black, Jackson Chourio...I'd say they're doing a pretty good job of developing hitters.

I didn't say a word about their "ratings." I specifically said "talent." 

And you went back to a farm system that'd be....16 years old if you're including the farm system going into the 2007 season with Ryan Braun...and that you needed to do that and then come up with these arbitrary measures to quantify them kinda makes my point. 

I'll take that bet though and we'll work it out in 25 years though...?

Here's the problem with your post. You say it's a silly understatement to call him competent, but not why?

Fact is in an era where maybe 15 teams are trying to compete, he typically had his squads in competition. However, he never made it to the top of the mountain in the NL. With Tampa, Cleveland and Oakland all winning a lot of games at the same time, you can't really say he was the best at getting more out of less payroll. 

Would I rather have had Stearns than say Dick Williams, Jeff Bridich, and Neil Huntington... hell yes. But there is another tier of GMs above Stearns, so I guess you call him competent: mostly met but did not exceed expectations.

We can disagree on prospects. I've been around too long to put much stock in prospect rankings and minor league stats. 

[owbc]

I think we need to be careful about worshipping some of these executives like they are the equivalent of a star player on the field. Stearns was one of many contributors to the Astros' success and they carried on just fine without him. He came into Milwaukee and turned around a franchise that was desperately in need of direction. It's a well-oiled machine now and they have been preparing for Stearns' departure for a while. The machine will chug on. 

Good ideas spread. The Brewers' approach is hardly unique. Ideas that were innovative in 2018 are now being implemented by 1-2 dozen other clubs. The Brewers have to continue to innovate to succeed and that means bringing in new faces and recognizing success by promoting from within. Stearns stuck around longer than he had to and I think it's a credit to Mark A that he has done everything he can to keep him here as long has he has and to ensure that the transition will be smooth. 

[Thurston Fluff]

17 minutes ago, owbc said:

I think we need to be careful about worshipping some of these executives like they are the equivalent of a star player on the field. Stearns was one of many contributors to the Astros' success and they carried on just fine without him. He came into Milwaukee and turned around a franchise that was desperately in need of direction. It's a well-oiled machine now and they have been preparing for Stearns' departure for a while. The machine will chug on. 

Good ideas spread. The Brewers' approach is hardly unique. Ideas that were innovative in 2018 are now being implemented 1-2 dozen other clubs. The Brewers have to continue to innovate to succeed and that means bringing in new faces and recognizing success by promoting from within. Stearns stuck around longer than he had to and I think it's a credit to Mark A that he has done everything he can to keep him here as long has he has and to ensure that the transition will be smooth. 

 

It seems like the teams that turn things around the fastest are the ones that started with a properly functioning organizational structure. It think teams that have competent management before a new GM comes in does better than one who came into a messy situation. Melvin may not have been the best GM ever but he was competent. Ditto for Mark A. That made handing the job over to Stearns a lot easier than what Melvin walked into when he came here. The positive is the Brewers management/ownership remained competent for decades. Now a new GM can more or less plug and play then tweak things to his liking as he goes along. There is no need for a major overhaul of the entire operation to meet minimal standards of competence all while balancing the normal duties every GM has.

[UpandIn]

34 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Here's the problem with your post. You say it's a silly understatement to call him competent, but not why?

Fact is in an era where maybe 15 teams are trying to compete, he typically had his squads in competition. However, he never made it to the top of the mountain in the NL. With Tampa, Cleveland and Oakland all winning a lot of games at the same time, you can't really say he was the best at getting more out of less payroll. 

Would I rather have had Stearns than say Dick Williams, Jeff Bridich, and Neil Huntington... hell yes. But there is another tier of GMs above Stearns, so I guess you call him competent: mostly met but did not exceed expectations.

We can disagree on prospects. I've been around too long to put much stock in prospect rankings and minor league stats. 

Here's the problem with yours...I already said it. Though I have to wonder...does it even really matter what I say? You hear what you'd like to. Take the "I've been around too long to put much stock in prospect RANKINGS." Twice now, once very clearly I explained I was NOT talking about rankings. Yet...it's still showing up in your post. 

Quote

 

The bottom line, Stearns took over a rebuilding team...one that appeared as though it was headed toward a LONG Baltimore like rebuild and they were competitive in year 3 and have been playoff contenders the last 6 years, making the playoffs 4 times and missing out on the post-season in the final week the last two. 

That and the fact that teams have repeatedly tried(to no avail) to poach Stearns from the Brewers would seem to indicate this is not just Brewers fans having low expectations...

 

He was FAR better than just "competent." 

[UpandIn]

42 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Huh? Both Soto and Chourio put up a wRC+ of 170 at age 18 in low-A, with Soto's production coming in significantly fewer at-bats than Chourio. 

If you want to talk about a class of its own, Griffey Jr (1.049 OPS in A- at 17!) and Alex Rodriguez (.948 OPS in AAA at 18) are probably that. 

Ok...and when those prospects carry .424 OBP or a .950 OPS through ~2700 MLB At Bats, I'll re-evaluate...but I'm not EVER expecting any prospect to match a historic career or a historic start to a career based on similar minor league numbers. 

If you're just talking about the MiLB...then I'd still point to Soto putting up a .362./.462/.757 1.218 OPS line about 6 months older and then went right to MLB and put up a .400 OBP. 

 

So...yeah, I'm not throwing Chourio in with THOSE players. That's a...LOT to ask or expect of Chourio and it's going to leave people very likely disappointed. 

I'd say look at Weeks. He had a pretty damn solid big league career and he's being cited as a failure on here because people expected too much. I'm not sure he's going to end up the best player from that Appleton team this year. 

[UpandIn]

42 minutes ago, owbc said:

I think we need to be careful about worshipping some of these executives like they are the equivalent of a star player on the field. Stearns was one of many contributors to the Astros' success and they carried on just fine without him. He came into Milwaukee and turned around a franchise that was desperately in need of direction. It's a well-oiled machine now and they have been preparing for Stearns' departure for a while. The machine will chug on. 

Good ideas spread. The Brewers' approach is hardly unique. Ideas that were innovative in 2018 are now being implemented 1-2 dozen other clubs. The Brewers have to continue to innovate to succeed and that means bringing in new faces and recognizing success by promoting from within. Stearns stuck around longer than he had to and I think it's a credit to Mark A that he has done everything he can to keep him here as long has he has and to ensure that the transition will be smooth. 

Well...I don't worship star players or any athletes, but I'd say it's more than fair to...lets say value a great GM as much as a star player. 

A GM can certainly do more to contribute to winning than any player can. 

As for him moving on, I'm good with it. Arnold has been in place for a while now and I trust him and the front office as a whole to keep things going. The concern I do have is that if/when Stearns does leave, he's going to invariably take key personnel with him and it's going to lead to a loss of valuable leaders. Scouts, coaches, whatever it may be. But it would seem like we have a good player development group in place at the moment...particularly as it relates to pitching. So hopefully that continues. 

[Brewcrew82]

12 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Ok...and when those prospects carry .424 OBP or a .950 OPS through ~2700 MLB At Bats, I'll re-evaluate...but I'm not EVER expecting any prospect to match a historic career or a historic start to a career based on similar minor league numbers. 

If you're just talking about the MiLB...then I'd still point to Soto putting up a .362./.462/.757 1.218 OPS line about 6 months older and then went right to MLB and put up a .400 OBP. 

 

So...yeah, I'm not throwing Chourio in with THOSE players. That's a...LOT to ask or expect of Chourio and it's going to leave people very likely disappointed. 

I'd say look at Weeks. He had a pretty damn solid big league career and he's being cited as a failure on here because people expected too much. I'm not sure he's going to end up the best player from that Appleton team this year. 

Yeah, obviously expectations should be tempered as with any other prospect. But what Chourio did this year at his age (youngest player in full-season ball) and at such an advanced level is different from what Weeks ever did or most players for that matter. It's right up there with what guys such as Soto, Vlad Jr. Acuna, Tatis Jr, Franco, etc. accomplished at the same stage. I just don't see any other player from Appleton with that same ability. Quero is the closest, but he's also older than Chourio. 

I also NEVER said that this means Chourio will put up the same type of production as Soto during his MLB career. Just that he's in the same rarified air prospect-wise ATM. 

[UpandIn]

3 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Yeah, obviously expectations should be tempered as with any other prospect. But what Chourio did this year at his age (youngest player in full-season ball) and at such an advanced level is different from what Weeks ever did or most players for that matter. It's right up there with what guys such as Soto, Vlad Jr. Acuna, Tatis Jr, Franco, etc. accomplished at the same stage. I just don't see any other player from Appleton with that same ability. Quero is the closest, but he's also older than Chourio. 

I also NEVER said that this means Chourio will put up the same type of production as Soto during his MLB career. Just that he's in the same rarified air prospect-wise ATM. 

Sure...but he's also a catcher, and with that comes a whole other set of expectations. Defense is the priority with a catcher whereas it's far less of an emphasis with a guy like Chourio. A players age is a big factor...it's just not QUITE as big of a deal to me. Quero being about a year older at HiA but being such an advanced defensive catcher and hitting well...given the value of a catcher vs an OFer, I don't think it's crazy that he ends up being the more valuable of the two. That's more about Quero being undervalued IMO. 

But yeah, he was incredible this year. He's as exciting a prospect as we've had in a long time.

I agreed when people cited Weeks and Braggs as their didn't perform in the minors until after they'd played College Baseball. 

[Jopal78]

1 hour ago, UpandIn said:

Here's the problem with yours...I already said it. Though I have to wonder...does it even really matter what I say? You hear what you'd like to. Take the "I've been around too long to put much stock in prospect RANKINGS." Twice now, once very clearly I explained I was NOT talking about rankings. Yet...it's still showing up in your post. 

He was FAR better than just "competent." 

Finally, getting somewhere with "FAR better than just competent" but yet still nowhere. Whatever... take out your dictionary and look up the definition of competent, heck check out the synonyms for competent in your thesaurus.  The facts are you disagree with my adjective "competent" yet  haven't said I'm wrong that there is a class of executives better than Stearns and a class that is obviously worse.

I really don't care if it's prospect talent or rankings. Maybe you live in Tennessee or Mississippi, but if not I'm willing to bet neither of us has seen any Brewer minor leaguers actually play more than a handful of games, if that. As such, neither one of us have any first hand knowledge of talent but its circumstantial evidence.. draft position, stat sheets, articles, age vs. level of play etc. that leads one to draw conclusions about talent. Nothing wrong with it, I just doesn't mean anything to me.  I'll draw my conclusions when the the person proves themselves at the major league level. 

 

 

[Brewcrew82]

28 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Sure...but he's also a catcher, and with that comes a whole other set of expectations. Defense is the priority with a catcher whereas it's far less of an emphasis with a guy like Chourio. A players age is a big factor...it's just not QUITE as big of a deal to me. Quero being about a year older at HiA but being such an advanced defensive catcher and hitting well...given the value of a catcher vs an OFer, I don't think it's crazy that he ends up being the more valuable of the two. That's more about Quero being undervalued IMO. 

But yeah, he was incredible this year. He's as exciting a prospect as we've had in a long time.

I agreed when people cited Weeks and Braggs as their didn't perform in the minors until after they'd played College Baseball. 

Chourio is projected as a future 70-grade defender in CF with 70-grade speed. That's in addition to his bat which is significantly more advanced at a younger age than Quero. So I don't quite get where you're going there considering CF defense is just as key as C defense. 

[Austin Tatious]

I didn't like our last 12 months, as literally no one did, but I am still a huge David Stearns fan.  You can parse individual moves, but the larger picture is he developed an organization that is stable and well run.  I greatly appreciate that.  For all the complaining here, I liked his overarching philosophies for the most part.   I am sad to see him depart.

Regarding Matt Arnold, we can pretend but we have no idea as fans what we have.  Maybe he was a whisperer behind the scenes, or maybe he doesn't have Stearns' intellect.  We don't know, and time will tell.  I hope that he keeps the organization functioning at a high level and is not in awe of the job.  We know what Stearns did because the buck stopped with him.  With Arnold, we don't know what he contributed behind the scenes.