Game 4: New England @ Green Bay - Sunday, October 2nd 3:25 CT

[Fear The Chorizo]

3 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Not when they're healthy.

An NFL team waiting on everyone being healthy for the playoffs to flip the switch is a team that winds up going home early. 

[HarryDoyle]

18 minutes ago, PeaveyFury said:

Assuming you mean Green Bay, I’d actually assume they’d win by more If Watkins, Watson, Jaire, etc . had been able to play.

No, I mean Tampa with their entire receiving corps. If all things are equal, Tampa is the better team.

[PeaveyFury]

Just now, HarryDoyle said:

No, I mean Tampa with their entire receiving corps. If all things are equal, Tampa is the better team.

Healthy NFL teams, especially late in the season/playoffs are the thing of NFL fans' fever dreams. Mythical, like the yeti, unicorns, and a Detroit Lions Super Bowl win.

[NBBrewFan]

Just now, PeaveyFury said:

Healthy NFL teams, especially late in the season/playoffs are the thing of NFL fans' fever dreams. Mythical, like the yeti, unicorns, a Detroit Lions Super Bowl appearance and a Minnesota Vikings Super Bowl win.

There, fixed it for you.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't think Tampa is all that. I had a gut feeling before the season that Brady was making a mistake unretiring. No real reason though. Seems like he's incapable of quitting and will eventually have to via a bad season. I won't be shocked if they're contending again but you'd think eventually he'll have a cliff season. 

I think the NFC will eventually be the Rams, Eagles and Packers, maybe the Cowboys but I haven't discerned what exactly they are or who their QB will be. They haven't really played anybody but they're 3-0 with a backup QB. 

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

Not an excuse for it taking OT to beat a Pat's team on their 3rd string qb....but they have a damn good offensive line and it showed - Packer front 7 had their hands full against the run in the trenches.  That plus the Packers basically playing no offense in the first quarter ( Doubs fumble on 2nd play limited their 1st halt time of possession) and that horrible pick 6 Rodgers threw at the end of the first half, it wound up being alot harder to win this game than it looked to be on paper.

 

Winning ugly is better than losing pretty any day

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

11 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

No, I mean Tampa with their entire receiving corps. If all things are equal, Tampa is the better team.

You play the teams on your schedule where they fall. And last week, The Packers were better. Barely .... but better. And Tampa didn't look all that great last night with that receiving corps all active. Evans doesn't have the explosiveness he used to, Godwin isn't 100% coming off his ACL last year, and Julio looks like he's done.

[UpandIn]

29 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

You play the teams on your schedule where they fall. And last week, The Packers were better. Barely .... but better. And Tampa didn't look all that great last night with that receiving corps all active. Evans doesn't have the explosiveness he used to, Godwin isn't 100% coming off his ACL last year, and Julio looks like he's done.

They looked better than we did. They had 2 fumbles giving the Chiefs 20 yard fields.

On the flip side, KC is a team much like the Packers. They lost their #1 WRer and they came out and put up 41 on the Tampa D that absolutely stifled the Packers in an eerily similar fashion to the 49ers last year. The only difference, the Packers STs didn't blow it. 

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

When they're jockeying for some seed in January nobody will remember how pathetic this game was. That's all I'm saying as far as being concerned.

Make the playoffs and being playing well at that time is all you can hope for. Even that hasn't gone super well for us, lol.

 

That's VERY possible. But we've gotta at least admit this team does NOT look like a real contender at the moment.

There were two big questions heading into the year(3 if you include health, but that's been about as positive as things could get). 

1-OL
This OL is playing at a very...average level right now. Probably above average vs the run, but they're playing poor in the pass game and they're playing better, but not great in the run game. 

On this one, there is a LOT of room for optimism at least. Bakhtiari has just come back. I think he played best vs Tampa, but his pass blocking has been really solid.
Jenkins on the other hand...he's struggled. He has not been the same player...which is fine, it's only been 3 games and I'm sure he's still rusty. There's also the possibility that he was less a PB caliber RT and he was elite FOR a Guard who moved to LT. He has been getting beaten by speed rushers are more often than you'd expect from him, but he's not getting deep enough in his pass sets. Bakhtiari just makes it look so easy. He just rides edge rushers out 10-12 yards deep and unless it's a broken play, Rodgers should have no trouble.

On the other hand, the interior OL individually have played well at times, but as a unit, they're too inconsistent. Passing off blockers, getting movement. Josh Myers on one play can cross Vita Vea's face and move him 3-4 yards off the LOS...and then on other players he can miss pretty basic reach blocks.

At this point...I never thought I'd say this, but Yosh Nijman has arguably been our best OL. The only one who's been close has been Bakh(returning from...well, we all know what he's coming back from). 

So that leaves us in a unique position and I hope the coaching staff will at least explore it. With Bakh back where we need him and Nijman having spent more than enough time at LT the past couple years, get Nijman work at RT. Our best 5 at this point is clearly Bakh/Jenkins/Myers/Runyan/Nijman.

2-WRer/Rodgers

Rodgers talent isn't in doubt, but his lack of trust with these guys is. Doubs looks like he's well on track and...shocking as it may be, they're going back to him after mistakes. 

Watson however is going to be a VITAL and Rodgers seems to have absolutely zero faith in him. The old adage about going back to a guy after a drop so he doesn't have to sit with it. Well...4 games later and Rodgers is still not going to him. 

25 of his 51 yards on the season came from Jordan Love in garbage time vs Minnesota. You at LEAST need to take some shots with him when he gets single high press coverage. 

Cobb has looked great, but you gonna rely on him all year? To look like 2015 Cobb? I think Tonyan is coming along, Lazard is developing, but Christian Watson needs to be more than a Tyler Ervin gadget player. 

Also, pretty clear Aaron Rodgers has zero faith in Amari Rodgers. He looks night and day different this year. Get him on the field and see what he can do. You can't possibly just be completely giving up on him after a rookie year? Especially given how much better he looks.

 

Defensively, somes small issues, but nothing serious...yet.

Preston Smith looks like MAYBE he's back on his even year production.
We're getting gashed a bit at the LOS...we also just played a team that ran 6 OL(which we should absolutely be able to match personnel with, but Rasul is getting...kinda abused). Thank God we brought in Nixon. He's been outstanding. Ford's been great on STs and looked good vs the Pats.

Jaire needs to stay healthy.

Gary, Clark, Jaire, Stokes, Preston and I think in that order. We need those guys to play healthy.

 

The good thing, literally all those problems are solvable. It's not like it requires bringing in an bunch of new talent and trying to get them up to speed.

The OL should just get better simply by playing together and the WRers SHOULD in theory get better by...Rodgers throwing faith in Watson, Watson rewarding that faith, stretching the field and just continuing to build chemistry.

I don't know if the Packers are one of the top 10 teams in the NFL at the moment, but at least they've got the pieces. 

 

Either way, for the top teams in the NFL, it should not be this hard. You should not be repeating last years mistakes, ie, a couple outstanding drives vs Tampa to start the game, then completely shutting down. 

Or going to OT vs Bailey Zappe and the Pats who are...NOT a very talented team. And they had a DC calling the plays. 

 

 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

If Rodgers doesn't like Watson it is possible that he just sucks. Lots of guys are 'great athletes' and never materialize. If he is constantly not where he's supposed to be then I don't blame Rodgers not trusting him. Hopefully that all sorts itself out. 

WR is not really a big concern of mine. When you have a great QB it just seems to work itself out over 16-17 games. OL has time to gel. If I had to pick my largest concern, it's the run defense which should be a strength of the team and is consistently getting gashed.

As far as "looking like a contender," again, I ask who does?

Dallas with Cooper Rush? The mass of contenders sitting 2-2? Certainly nobody in the NFC has looked all that amazing and that includes Philadelphia who will eventually run into an opponent that forces Hurts to throw 35 passes. The entire NFC East is sitting 3-1 or 4-0 and do we really think the Giants and Cowboys are better equipped than the Packers? I don't.

This is not to say the Packers will waltz to the Super Bowl but I think the field is very favorable to them. But that's gotten them nowhere. They have to make the playoffs and show up for once. Until they actually make the Super Bowl I'm convinced they'll find a creative way to choke again. But it's not because of some sloppy play in Sept/Oct that has me worried.

Lots of good teams barely squeak by 'crappy' ones. It happens to everybody every year. If you go down the line, fans of most teams will bemoan how close they were, how many games they barely lost, etc. The margins between 6-11 and 11-6 in the NFL are usually pretty thin outside of some awful teams. I mean the Packers could conceivably be 1-3...but they're not.

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

No, I mean Tampa with their entire receiving corps. If all things are equal, Tampa is the better team.

All things being equal, Tampa is a team with a lot more holes this year than they've had in years past...and the Packers are a team as things currently stand, should only improve as the season goes on, their OL gels, their two stars returning from ACL's should round back into shape, and...in theory, the receiving group should get better as the season goes on.

 

We're not a real threat with this offense as it stands, but again, all things being equal, the next time we play Tampa, our OL should be vastly improved and hopefully Jaire will be on the field.

 

[homer]

He knows a thing or two about drops at Lambeau

 

 

 

[UpandIn]

6 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

If Rodgers doesn't like Watson it is possible that he just sucks. Lots of guys are 'great athletes' and never materialize. If he is constantly not where he's supposed to be then I don't blame Rodgers not trusting him. Hopefully that all sorts itself out. 

Who says he's not where he's supposed to be though? Nobody knows where a WRer is supposed to be on a lot of routes. Sometimes it's obvious. Like on 9 routes where Watson blows past guys off the LOS and Rodgers...being the QB he is, knows his matchups. If you're not going to go back to Watson because of one drop...if that's caused you to lose patience...well, then like I said, he's effectively Cordarrelle Patterson without getting the touches out of the backfield.

This has been a pretty noticeable flaw with Rodgers for a while. He's harrd on rookies. Watson is getting open. Nobody on this team has has his ability to beat his man like Watson. The longer he has to dwell on that 1st play of his rookie season, the worse it is for is confidence. You absolutely NEED Watson for this offense to realize it's potential. 

12 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

If I had to pick my largest concern, it's the run defense which should be a strength of the team and is consistently getting gashed.

That's an area I'm not worried about. They don't tackle in the pre-season and they almost always get better as the season goes on...but Savage has been missing WAAY too many tackles and they tend to really to the ball. I don't think that'll beat them with all the depth we've got in the front 7. Particularly as Walker gets more seasoning. They've given Clark a lot more freedom...which has led to him getting out of his gaps, but his play has more than made up for it. They've gotten stops when they need to...as so long as they keep their secondary healthy, I think the run D will be fine.

22 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

As far as "looking like a contender," again, I ask who does?

Buffalo, Philly, Baltimore, Rams, Dallas when Dak comes back. 

But I'm not really comparing the Packers to the rest of the league. That's a bit of a fools errand a month into the season. Just an update on OUR team as it currently stands.

 

25 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

This is not to say the Packers will waltz to the Super Bowl but I think the field is very favorable to them. But that's gotten them nowhere. They have to make the playoffs and show up for once. Until they actually make the Super Bowl I'm convinced they'll find a creative way to choke again. But it's not because of some sloppy play in Sept/Oct that has me worried.

Well...again, the difference between this team and the last couple years, this team is starting off playing at a fraction of their talent level. 

So they should certainly improve and get...MUCH better, it's still a process of actually doing that. Watching rookies like Watson, Doubs, Enagbare, Walker, Wyatt...maybe Tom, all players who have a lot of room to grow, obviously the other positions and players I mentioned.

But we also need a lot more from our core players. Namely Rodgers...and then our OTs(which I'm not blaming, just pointing out, they SHOULD continue to improve as they settle in and feel more comfortable. 

30 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Lots of good teams barely squeak by 'crappy' ones. It happens to everybody every year. If you go down the line, fans of most teams will bemoan how close they were, how many games they barely lost, etc. The margins between 6-11 and 11-6 in the NFL are usually pretty thin outside of some awful teams. I mean the Packers could conceivably be 1-3...but they're not.

I get that, but the point isn't just that they're winning close. 

Rodgers has not played up to his standards, and it is HIS job to get the rookies contributing...and not just on jet sweeps. This offense is too limited. I'm pretty confident we'll win our next couple games, but you're looking for growth, not just getting by coming off 3 straight 13 win seasons.

 

I'm not saying the sky is falling, I'm saying they just haven't looked good so far...and they haven't. They have more room to improve than most teams.

 

Special teams has been good and our defense has been good when they've needed them, but...you expect more out of a Packers team all in vs...Bailey Zappe.

 

They have a chance to get rolling the next few weeks when they play the New York teams and WFT. Two of whom have bad defenses. It'd be a good time to try and incorporate Watson and get this offense to start clicking. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The 2-2 Ravens who've blown two 17-pt leads in a month? The Rams who got blown out and then squeaked by Atlanta and Arizona? The Cowboys have done a nice job with a backup QB but they have 2 wins against NFCE opponents not named the Eagles.

I dunno. None of those teams have looked any better than the Packers really. Almost every team has had the exact same kind of "concerning" moments. 

Buffalo is good and Kansas City looks like the same old ridiculousness on offense. Other than that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if half your list ends up missing the playoffs.

It would look cool if we were winning games by 20 and Rodgers was on another MVP trajectory but it wouldn't change the fact they'd have to keep that up for 4 months and it's almost useless to look that good this early.

[homer]

I'm sure he'll get better, but Jenkins hasn't been so great at RT. I wonder if they'd consider moving him inside? I suppose that assumes Nijman can play RT. Do not want Newman out there. Would love someone to beat out Myers. 

[PeaveyFury]

8 minutes ago, homer said:

I'm sure he'll get better, but Jenkins hasn't been so great at RT. I wonder if they'd consider moving him inside? I suppose that assumes Nijman can play RT. Do not want Newman out there. Would love someone to beat out Myers. 

Have to assume Jenkins is still a step slow after coming back from the leg injury. He graded out very well in run blocking but was clearly late getting back in pass pro, which makes sense. I think you mitigate that a LOT moving him inside where guard play has been meh and letting Yosh play RT if he's comfortable. Seems like a waste not to have Yosh on the field, as I think a 'best players play' o-line includes all three of Bakh, Jenkins, and Nijman.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

1 hour ago, homer said:

I'm sure he'll get better, but Jenkins hasn't been so great at RT. I wonder if they'd consider moving him inside? I suppose that assumes Nijman can play RT. Do not want Newman out there. Would love someone to beat out Myers. 

He looks like a guy who is already a tweener, and is coming off a major injury. He may ultimately be a guard, but if they feel he has the athleticism to be an elite tackle, I'd prefer he stay there. 

Myers isn't going anywhere. They seem to really love him, and Hanson is a major step down. 

[homer]

11 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

He looks like a guy who is already a tweener, and is coming off a major injury. He may ultimately be a guard, but if they feel he has the athleticism to be an elite tackle, I'd prefer he stay there. 

Myers isn't going anywhere. They seem to really love him, and Hanson is a major step down. 

Obviously I'm not a scout and don't watch practice but I feel like Myers is responsible for more "bad runs" between the tackles than anyone. Maybe the guards stink more than he does.

[homer]

 

[CheezWizHed]

9 hours ago, homer said:

Obviously I'm not a scout and don't watch practice but I feel like Myers is responsible for more "bad runs" between the tackles than anyone. Maybe the guards stink more than he does.

I've seen Myers miss some blocks - especially reach blocks.  But I'm guessing it is more about consistency.  He hasn't even started a full year yet.  There are also plenty of good runs where he is making key blocks.  

Moving Jenkins inside is certainly necessary for now.  Wow was his lateral movement limited on pass blocks.  Still needs time in recovery.  But Jenkins+Yiman > Newman+Jenkins anyway.

[UpandIn]

2 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

I've seen Myers miss some blocks - especially reach blocks.  But I'm guessing it is more about consistency.  He hasn't even started a full year yet.  There are also plenty of good runs where he is making key blocks.  

Moving Jenkins inside is certainly necessary for now.  Wow was his lateral movement limited on pass blocks.  Still needs time in recovery.  But Jenkins+Yiman > Newman+Jenkins anyway.

Myers looks like an All-Pro Center at times, capable of things Linsley...or really any Center I've seen(on the Packers) just isn't capable of. But he has whiffed quite a few times. 

And I just don't get what's up with Jenkins. Is it that he's actually physically unable at this point? That would seem a little hard to believe(especially as Bakh makes it look so easy at LT). Or is he just rusty? Or maybe he was never as good of a RT as we thought, but as I said, just really good FOR a Guard that moved out to RT and then LT to cover for injuries. But Nijman had really just started to look really good and really comfortable. He was locking up pass rushers and doing a really good job getting to the 2nd level in the run game. I've heard the rumors that he hasn't looked great at RT, but how much time has he been given? How hard can it really be? Seems like it's just a question of reps and getting used to being on the other side.

 

I still think they'll get better even if they keep the OL as it is, but it feels like a real waste to have Yosh on the bench and Newman on the field. I'm fairly confident Stenavich is a step(or 5) ahead of us and has a handle on this. 

 

Also, lets steal some Patriots ideas. You've got a 6'9 370 OT who can lineup and just move bodies in the run game. Throw Jones in there, Tonyan and then Lazard and Watson and force the opposing D match up. You still have 4 legit receiving options, BUT you also have great size and run blocking at WRer and a TE who can run block and catch the ball. 

 

With all these teams now running the same offense, it's up to MLF to start and come up with some new ideas(or just steal some). 

 

 

[UpandIn]

14 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

The 2-2 Ravens who've blown two 17-pt leads in a month? The Rams who got blown out and then squeaked by Atlanta and Arizona? The Cowboys have done a nice job with a backup QB but they have 2 wins against NFCE opponents not named the Eagles.

I dunno. None of those teams have looked any better than the Packers really. Almost every team has had the exact same kind of "concerning" moments. 

Buffalo is good and Kansas City looks like the same old ridiculousness on offense. Other than that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if half your list ends up missing the playoffs.

It would look cool if we were winning games by 20 and Rodgers was on another MVP trajectory but it wouldn't change the fact they'd have to keep that up for 4 months and it's almost useless to look that good this early.

Yeah...they've lost to the Dolphins and Bills. Arguably two of the top 5 teams the first month(at least before the Tua thing with Miami) and they're playing without not only Stanley they've lost 3 more LTs, they've lost 3 started OLBers, they've got RBs coming back from injury...and they're still one of the best offenses in the NFL. 

Yeah, I see them ahead of the Packers right now. We've eecked past the Buccs in a game that, again, was VERY similar to that 49ers game(offense just disappeared after one play didn't go their way, the Jones fumble). Vs the 49ers it was the Lewis injury. 

The Rams were up 31-10 vs the Falcons and a fluke sequence of events with a late blocked punt for a TD, then an immediate fumble, plus a safety on the last play made the score appear closer than the game was, but if you want to replace them with the 49ers...fine.

 

 

The point is less about the rest of the NFL and more about how WE'RE playing...and as I said, there are a lot of reasons to hope for and expect growth, but they just don't look good right now. It's nice they can play poorly and go 3-1, but it's going to fall on Rodgers to get this offense playing together as a unit, to spread the ball around and to use the weapon they traded 2 2nd round picks for to at least force teams to play off a bit more. 

 

Again, it's really not about other teams, it's about the Packers and they look very mediocre on offense. Again, the defense I think will be fine...the big spots, they seem to do a better job of rallying to the ball and they've got talent everywhere. 

If they have Jaire vs NE, I think they could have matched up a whole lot better, but that offense is just ugly right now.

[UpandIn]

10 hours ago, homer said:

 

Outstanding. Also a little bit of an indictment on Sean Rhyan. Doesn't sound like he's even in consideration for that RG spot. He looked like a bulldozer and someone who could compete for a job coming out. 

Hopefully the curse of Montravius Adams ends with Sean Rhyan...but not a promising start. 

[CheezWizHed]

5 hours ago, UpandIn said:

And I just don't get what's up with Jenkins. Is it that he's actually physically unable at this point? That would seem a little hard to believe(especially as Bakh makes it look so easy at LT). Or is he just rusty? Or maybe he was never as good of a RT as we thought, but as I said, just really good FOR a Guard that moved out to RT and then LT to cover for injuries. But Nijman had really just started to look really good and really comfortable. He was locking up pass rushers and doing a really good job getting to the 2nd level in the run game. I've heard the rumors that he hasn't looked great at RT, but how much time has he been given? How hard can it really be? Seems like it's just a question of reps and getting used to being on the other side.

 

I read somewhere that lateral movement is the last part of the ACL recovery...not sure if that is true or a cover for Jenkins.  Regardless, he doesn't have it now and isn't starting quality RT.  He was ProBowl level G before becoming a very good LT/RT and his run blocking is still highly graded, so moving him inside seems like a no-brainer (at least for now).  Moving him to RG should help Myers' consistency too.  

I can't imagine Yosh should struggle at RT too much.  That was his college position. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

5 hours ago, UpandIn said:

Yeah...they've lost to the Dolphins and Bills. Arguably two of the top 5 teams the first month(at least before the Tua thing with Miami) and they're playing without not only Stanley they've lost 3 more LTs, they've lost 3 started OLBers, they've got RBs coming back from injury...and they're still one of the best offenses in the NFL. 

Yeah, I see them ahead of the Packers right now. We've eecked past the Buccs in a game that, again, was VERY similar to that 49ers game(offense just disappeared after one play didn't go their way, the Jones fumble). Vs the 49ers it was the Lewis injury. 

The Rams were up 31-10 vs the Falcons and a fluke sequence of events with a late blocked punt for a TD, then an immediate fumble, plus a safety on the last play made the score appear closer than the game was, but if you want to replace them with the 49ers...fine.

 

 

The point is less about the rest of the NFL and more about how WE'RE playing...and as I said, there are a lot of reasons to hope for and expect growth, but they just don't look good right now. It's nice they can play poorly and go 3-1, but it's going to fall on Rodgers to get this offense playing together as a unit, to spread the ball around and to use the weapon they traded 2 2nd round picks for to at least force teams to play off a bit more. 

 

Again, it's really not about other teams, it's about the Packers and they look very mediocre on offense. Again, the defense I think will be fine...the big spots, they seem to do a better job of rallying to the ball and they've got talent everywhere. 

If they have Jaire vs NE, I think they could have matched up a whole lot better, but that offense is just ugly right now.

I get the feeling you'd be way less forgiving of the Packers blowing two 17-pt leads in 4 weeks. Everyone is more critical of their favorite team and amplifies their flaws.