Counsell: Win the Central or Be Fired

[SeaBass]

8 hours ago, Ojoe33 said:

All of your suggestions say to keep Counsell; but how many more participation penants will the Brewers hang at American Family Field with Counsell at the helm before the realization dawns upon the clueless?

"The price of excellence is discipline.  The cost of mediocrity is disappointment."  William Arthur Ward

 

I'm looking for clues but you neglected to tell us which sure fire manager hire will take us to the promised land.

[NBBrewFan]

50 minutes ago, SeaBass said:

I'm looking for clues but you neglected to tell us which sure fire manager hire will take us to the promised land.

Maybe Moises can lead us to the promised land, Moises Alou.

[areacodes]

7 hours ago, phnxcrew said:

CC has had a bad year with a poor roster that has played below even their talent level.  We can judge him more in the next few years as they actually acquire young talent and completely overhaul a roster that isn’t working.

If it is true that we have a poor roster that has played below their talent level and isn’t working, I’d say it is pretty impressive that Counsell has them 9 games over .500 this late in the season.

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, Ojoe33 said:

All of your suggestions say to keep Counsell; but how many more participation penants will the Brewers hang at American Family Field with Counsell at the helm before the realization dawns upon the clueless?

"The price of excellence is discipline.  The cost of mediocrity is disappointment." 

Hopefully lots of them. The more times they're "participating," in the playoffs, the more chances they have to win a World Series. 

-8 playoff appearances in Brewers History

-4 under Craig Counsell in the last 4 years!

 

"Quoting smart dead people does not make your point any stronger."

-Albert Einstein 

 

(what the hell, we attribute all other types of quotes to him that he didn't actually say, so lets give him this one)

[UpandIn]

3 hours ago, NBBrewFan said:

Maybe Moises can lead us to the promised land, Moises Alou.

I'd never shake another Brewers players hand again!

 

[dlk9s]

15 hours ago, Playing Catch said:

Even if the topic was, "list the reasons why the Brewers haven't performed to your expectations," wouldn't Counsell be waaay down the list??

He wouldn't even be on the list.

[clancyphile]

8 hours ago, UpandIn said:

Hopefully lots of them. The more times they're "participating," in the playoffs, the more chances they have to win a World Series. 

-8 playoff appearances in Brewers History

-4 under Craig Counsell in the last 4 years!

 

"Quoting smart dead people does not make your point any stronger."

-Albert Einstein 

 

(what the hell, we attribute all other types of quotes to him that he didn't actually say, so lets give him this one)

Part of the problem with Counsell is the higher expectations from the previous four seasons.

I'll say it, he is not a major cause for the problems. I do think, though, that this team needs to get better at some offensive fundamentals (hit-and-run, going the other way, stealing bases, executing the squeeze, getting the runner on third in with less than two outs, etc.), and this should be priority 1 this offseason.

[jerichoholicninja]

36 minutes ago, clancyphile said:

I'll say it, he is not a major cause for the problems. I do think, though, that this team needs to get better at some offensive fundamentals (hit-and-run, going the other way, stealing bases, executing the squeeze, getting the runner on third in with less than two outs, etc.), and this should be priority 1 this offseason.

What other team does those things well? I'm generally curious. Players just aren't trained in those areas anymore. That's not a Counsell thing or a Brewer thing, it's a "just the way the game is played now" thing

[clancyphile]

3 hours ago, jerichoholicninja said:

What other team does those things well? I'm generally curious. Players just aren't trained in those areas anymore. That's not a Counsell thing or a Brewer thing, it's a "just the way the game is played now" thing

Maybe the Brewers need to do those things well. They can't spend $250 million in payroll. So, maybe, just maybe, it is worth making sure the team can do those things well, or at least, better than other teams.

[Playing Catch]

Usually, those strategies are personnel-specific. If the Brewers' hypothetical 2023 starting lineup includes Ruiz, Frelick and Mitchell (with Taylor and Wiemer and Yelich at DH), you can count on more small ball. If it includes guys like Renfroe, then no, you won't see him bunting.

[Playing Catch]

What I would add is that the strategy of small-ball-helping-in-low-scoring-playoff-type games-against-good-pitching, doesn't quite jive with the regular season strategy of, mash-homers-all-year-while-beating-bad-teams-so-you-can-bite-the-apple.

[trwi7]

3 hours ago, clancyphile said:

Maybe the Brewers need to do those things well. They can't spend $250 million in payroll. So, maybe, just maybe, it is worth making sure the team can do those things well, or at least, better than other teams.

I'm surprised you haven't suggested moving Yelich to SS where his offense would be more acceptable and moving Adames to catcher to replace Narvaez when he leaves in free agency.

[nate82]

24 minutes ago, trwi7 said:

I'm surprised you haven't suggested moving Yelich to SS where his offense would be more acceptable and moving Adames to catcher to replace Narvaez when he leaves in free agency.

You got it all wrong Yelich to CF, Renfroe to 3B, Adames to C and Braun coming out of retirement to play SS.  

[UpandIn]

10 hours ago, jerichoholicninja said:

What other team does those things well? I'm generally curious. Players just aren't trained in those areas anymore. That's not a Counsell thing or a Brewer thing, it's a "just the way the game is played now" thing

It kinda feels like the Brewers have made a concerted effort to develop players who can and will do those things. 

Ruiz is apparently an exceptional bunter. And we don't need to go back to having our #3 hitting bunting over the 1st and 2nd hitter, but occasionally putting down a bunt. A  REALLY big thing is guys with bat control control. Guys who can stick the bat out there and beat the shift. They've certainly played before and I think guys like Black, Frelick are those types...but we'll have to see.

All the prospects can run and field with the exception of Ruiz who's defense is still a bit of a question. That's the type of lineup and personnel we need. 

Then the 2022 version of Rowdy and Adames are fine. But when HRs are your primary way of scoring runs, you're not going to be very consistent.

[clancyphile]

On 9/2/2022 at 8:15 PM, trwi7 said:

I'm surprised you haven't suggested moving Yelich to SS where his offense would be more acceptable and moving Adames to catcher to replace Narvaez when he leaves in free agency.

I don't think things are THAT bad for the Crew requiring such desperate measures. It's not 2002.

Don't get me wrong. I'll take offense over defense a lot of the time. Yelich at SS is not an answer for the present problems, but Yelich in CF, where he's been solid, probably should have happened more this year. Keep Adames at short, have Turang take over second next year.

Catcher? Feliciano is probably due for a shot there, and I have my eye on Darrien Miller in the system as well. Of course, there's also Quero.

Third? A Urias/Peterson platoon is okay, but maybe see if Frelick could work there - he played infield during some collegiate summer leagues, and I'd like that bat in the MLB lineup ASAP. Tyler Black's probably the long-term answer there, but he's still in high-A.

[SeaBass]

I think a big reason they've kept Yelich from playing CF is to reduce wear and tear and keep him as healthy as possible. CF is probably the most physically demanding OF position.

[WV Brew]

Counsell beefs:

Pitcher x in inning y.  There have been a number of times recently when I felt they should have brought in Williams in the 7th when the other team had a couple of men on.  Boxyberger is not the man for that situation.  But Craig won't go there.  He said he would mix and match more when Hader was traded but he really hasn't done that.

Young players:  The Brewers are going to have to count on younger players to save money so maybe get a higher quality free agent occasionally.  Craig often sabotages these guys.  Example: Feliciano.  Caratini was practically dying when Narvaez was out but Craig wouldn't use Feliciano just to give him a one game break.  When he finally did, Feliciano was taken out early.  There have been other examples.  I just don't think he's comfortable with rookies.

He plays favorites.  Usually older utility types that are like he was.  And the pitcher versions of the same.

Like Clancy, situational hitting.  Brewers are particularly bad at this.  Guys like Urias who don't hit much should be concentrating on this stuff.  Counsell just shrugs his shoulders and says we aren't capable of it.  Maybe they should practice once in a while.

I always thought Phil Garner was one of their best managers but after many years he became reconciled to losing and really lost his edge.  Counsell may be near that now.

 

 

 

[brewers888]

I've been saying this for awhile but I predict Counsell retires after the season and takes a front office position. He has look disinterested all season and has really done a poor job though I don't think he deserves to be fired.