Counsell: Win the Central or Be Fired

[NBBrewFan]

Maybe all of the "innovative"/creative things he did early in his career don't really have a positive impact when looking at it from a straight numbers perspective.  Maybe his vanilla managing this year is that they don't think the other approaches give them any added improvement.  I really doubt he's not trying or bored after 9 years.  If anything Craig works well with the analytics from the front office so it would be really odd that he's gone rogue this year.  

[Jim French Stepstool]

5 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

 I'm as disappointed as anyone by Counsell's perceived degradation into a "cookie-cutter" type manager, but I'm starting to wonder if some of these boring type moves are more predicated by a lack of raw material on the MLB roster than Counsell losing his creativity.

I mentioned this in other threads, but the 3-batter rule for pitchers & the addition of the DH hasn't done his managerial style any favors. It hasn't made him incompetent or anything but it blunted a part of his M.O. that I think gave him an edge.

[AKCheesehead]

3 hours ago, CheeseheadInQC said:

He wouldn’t bring the baggage of why Schildt got fired, though.

All I seem to recall about Schildt getting fired was "philosophical differences" is there some dirt/baggage I missed?

[CheeseheadInQC]

1 minute ago, AKCheesehead said:

All I seem to recall about Schildt getting fired was "philosophical differences" is there some dirt/baggage I missed?

Basically that the relationship with the front office got bad enough they fired a manager who had success. If you are a guy in the same position with a different team, it might give you pause. I didn’t mean to imply dirt, just that how things ended with one GM might weigh into the decision making of another.

[nate82]

Managers have very little impact on a season. At most you are talking about one or two game swing that a manager in baseball impacts for the whole season.

This isn’t the NFL where a head coach has about as much of an impact on a game as the players do.  The impact a manager has on a baseball game is just minimal at best.

I don’t believe Counsell will be fired unless there is a new GM and even then I doubt he would be fired.  Counsell also works really well with the front office and the analytic team.  So there would have to be a serious issue that comes up for him to be fired.  Not winning the NL Central is not a serious issue.

[Hopper]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

Managers have very little impact on a season. At most you are talking about one or two game swing that a manager in baseball impacts for the whole season.

This isn’t the NFL where a head coach has about as much of an impact on a game as the players do.  The impact a manager has on a baseball game is just minimal at best.

 

I NEVER understand why people say this.

Managers make tons of in game decisions that 100% does effect the outcome of games.

I've seen people say this for years on this site and I could not disagree more.

[tmwiese55]

If you concede the actual in game decisions, such as lineup order, when to yank a pitcher, who to move in and out of lineup, bullpen choices, etc are minimal just because most guys would make the same decisions. So one could argue they only matter for a small amount of games per year difference.  I'm not saying that's the case, but just say you did.   But I'd add one of the biggest factors a manager has is on locker room morale/culture, everyone having a positive attitude team first attitude. I guess similar to a good boss in normal world. Managers are crucial to this and it sure seems Counsel has been one of the best at it for his tenure.  Though I'd grant this year doesn't seem to be as good on that front, for whatever reason. 

Just watching some White Sox stuff today. Thinking of their talent, and how weak their division is, it's hard to think a different manager wouldn't have won that division.  Flip Francona and LaRussa and I bet that flips the division. 

[LouisEly]

56 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

If you concede the actual in game decisions, such as lineup order, when to yank a pitcher, who to move in and out of lineup, bullpen choices, etc are minimal just because most guys would make the same decisions. So one could argue they only matter for a small amount of games per year difference.  I'm not saying that's the case, but just say you did.   But I'd add one of the biggest factors a manager has is on locker room morale/culture, everyone having a positive attitude team first attitude. I guess similar to a good boss in. Managers are crucial to this and it sure seems Counsel has been one of the best at it for his tenure.  Though I'd grant this year doesn't seem to be as good on that front, for whatever reason. 

Just watching some White Sox stuff today. Thinking of their talent, and how weak their division is, it's hard to think a different manager wouldn't have won that division.  Flip Francona and LaRussa and I bet that flips the division. 

I don't necessarily subscribe to the "most managers would make the same decisions".   Being able to read your players and know when they're available, when they're tired, when they need a day off is critical to the course of an entire season.  Maybe Counsell occasionally sticks with his starters too long, but the converse of that is the 2019 Cubs when Joe Maddon kept going to the bullpen early and ran his bullpen into the ground by August, causing them to finish 15-20 after 8/23 (the last day they were in first place), and 21-26 after 8/9.

Totally agree on LaRussa.  With the talent on that team if they had anything other than one of the biggest boobs in the recent history of the game as manager they would be walking away with the division.

No manager makes perfect decisions.  Debate the moves by Counsell and the front office, but I think the injuries to Woodruff, Peralta, Houser, and Ashby had a bigger effect on the season than those decisions.

[LaprilOne]

WHOAA SOLVD!!  Fire Counsell.

 

[SeaBass]

C'mon, everybody knows it's the hitting coach(es) that make the biggest impact on team success.

[Random Guest]

12 hours ago, Random Guest said:

That's what they said about Mike Shildt in STL.  He hasn't been offered anything anywhere as far as a manager's job...and he had pretty good success in STL.  So, you can't predict that about Counsell.

 

10 hours ago, CheeseheadInQC said:

He wouldn’t bring the baggage of why Schildt got fired, though.

What baggage did Schildt have in STL?  He was NL Manager of the Year in 2019.  I think most were surprised when he was fired.  But I don't  know of the baggage you speak of.

[CheeseheadInQC]

17 minutes ago, Random Guest said:

 

What baggage did Schildt have in STL?  He was NL Manager of the Year in 2019.  I think most were surprised when he was fired.  But I don't  know of the baggage you speak of.

Covered above, but basically just the breakdown of the relationship with the front office. Nothing nefarious, just that it probably put a question in the mind of GMs about whether he was going to be collaborative. 

[FVBrewerFan]

CC can go, that's fine with me.  But not for any of the reasons the OP mentioned.  I just happen to believe pro sports teams can benefit from shaking things up with a new manager/ head coach.  I think everything gets comfortable and predictable, and that's not ideal.

[SomewhereInTime]

7 hours ago, Hopper said:

I NEVER understand why people say this.

Managers make tons of in game decisions that 100% does effect the outcome of games.

I've seen people say this for years on this site and I could not disagree more.

Yeah a manager makes several decisions in a game and fills out a lineup card.  In comparison, a football coach is generally calling plays offensively or defensively along with making all game management decisions.  And that's just the gameday impact.

[dlk9s]

Counsell is a top 3-5 manager in MLB. To even have a thought for a second of getting rid of him is lunacy.

[nate82]

7 hours ago, Hopper said:

I NEVER understand why people say this.

Managers make tons of in game decisions that 100% does effect the outcome of games.

I've seen people say this for years on this site and I could not disagree more.

They make tons of in game decisions but they don't all have an impact on the outcome of the game.  Also a decision to bring in someone one day it works and then the next it doesn't.  It could be the same scenario and the reliever or the batter just doesn't get the job done.  

It is more on the player than it is the manager really.  Their decisions to pinch hit or to put in a reliever are just moves it is still on the player to make the impact.  The NL had a little more strategy involved but with the DH that is no longer there so the extra wins and losses that NL managers accounted for are no longer there.  

The managers decisions on games are just not all that impactful on the game or by inning by inning.  The managers biggest impact is on the season as a whole and that is how they manage their starting and relief pitchers.  That is the biggest impact that managers have on the game itself.  The decisions on who to bring in and when to bring in have very little impact on the game itself.  Managers at best add a win or two a season from their decisions.  

Again the biggest thing managers bring to a baseball team is dealing with morale and saving their players from being thrown out of a game.  When a manager gets tossed a teams winning odds don't improve or go down.  Sometimes it can be a morale booster to the team but the majority of the time it is just a whole lot of nothing.  

[SeaBass]

23 hours ago, FVBrewerFan said:

CC can go, that's fine with me.  But not for any of the reasons the OP mentioned.  I just happen to believe pro sports teams can benefit from shaking things up with a new manager/ head coach.  I think everything gets comfortable and predictable, and that's not ideal.

Maybe so but I don't think that many players have been on the team long enough for things to be stagnant. The roster gets turned over with additions and subtractions pretty often in Milwaukee. Who's the longest tenured Brewer, Suter? Maybe a handful of other guys that came after him? The coaching staff has seen a good amount of turnover as well.

[Ojoe33]

All of your suggestions say to keep Counsell; but how many more participation penants will the Brewers hang at American Family Field with Counsell at the helm before the realization dawns upon the clueless?

"The price of excellence is discipline.  The cost of mediocrity is disappointment."  William Arthur Ward

 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, Ojoe33 said:

All of your suggestions say to keep Counsell; but how many more participation penants will the Brewers hang at American Family Field with Counsell at the helm before the realization dawns upon the clueless?

"The price of excellence is discipline.  The cost of mediocrity is disappointment."  William Arthur Ward

 

I would just stop now before you sink any further. The Brewers have had by far their greatest run of success in their history under Counsell's helm, with CC being almost unanimously hailed as a top 5 manager in the game. Do you not realize how hard it is for a small-market team like the Brewers to win a Word Series? Or are you that eager to return to the 1990s/early 2000s version of the team? 

[phnxcrew]

CC has had a bad year with a poor roster that has played below even their talent level.  We can judge him more in the next few years as they actually acquire young talent and completely overhaul a roster that isn’t working.

[treego14]

If we had Billy Heywood managing this team, the sky would be the limit!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Big_League

[StearnsFTW]

2 hours ago, Ojoe33 said:

All of your suggestions say to keep Counsell; but how many more participation penants will the Brewers hang at American Family Field with Counsell at the helm before the realization dawns upon the clueless?

"The price of excellence is discipline.  The cost of mediocrity is disappointment."  William Arthur Ward

 

Yay.  Another one.

[Brewcrew82]

1 minute ago, StearnsFTW said:

Yay.  Another one.

[sveumrules]

From 1983 to 2007 the only non-expansion teams to win fewer games than the Brewers were the Royals & Pirates. A quarter Century of irrelevance. Talk about an epic hangover after 1982.

From 2008 to 2022, lets call it the Participation Trophy Era, the Brewers have won the 7th most games in MLB. Only the Braves, Red Sox, Rays, Cardinals, Yankees and Dodgers have won more games.

Until MLB completely overhauls its economic system, this is the ceiling. The World Series will always be a crazy longshot. No manager is going to change that.

The Dodgers have won 72 more games & counting than the next best team over the last decade, made the playoffs every year, spent around 2.25 billion on payroll (about twice the Brewers franchise value) & only have a pandemic weirdened World Series trophy to show for it.

The next three winningest teams of the last decade - Yankees, Cardinals and Indians - have two WS losses and zero WS wins to show for it.

Because even with the deck stacked in your favor it is incredibly hard to win the World Series. Understanding that reality and setting one's expectations accordingly does not equate to settling for mediocrity.

[Playing Catch]

Even if the topic was, "list the reasons why the Brewers haven't performed to your expectations," wouldn't Counsell be waaay down the list??