Realignment

[Jopal78]

I'm sure if a group of investors had the franchise fee the existing owners would take their money, but further expansion would only enlarge the discrepancy between the big market and small market teams. 

 The top 23 media markets in America already have a team(s). The largest media market without a MLB team... Portland. Their market size is right between Denver and Cleveland. After that you're into Milwaukee size markets like San Antonio, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City etc. Nashville would be the smallest media market in the sport. 

That doesn't get into the equally pertinent topic that as demand for quality players would grow with an expansion,  the prices those players command would also further escalate. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

I'm sure if a group of investors had the franchise fee the existing owners would take their money, but further expansion would only enlarge the discrepancy between the big market and small market teams. 

 The top 23 media markets in America already have a team(s). The largest media market without a MLB team... Portland. Their market size is right between Denver and Cleveland. After that you're into Milwaukee size markets like San Antonio, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City etc. Nashville would be the smallest media market in the sport. 

That doesn't get into the equally pertinent topic that as demand for quality players would grow with an expansion,  the prices those players command would also further escalate. 

The Carolinas are ripe for expansion and have a massive population, they just don't have a huge single metro area. Given the dominance of television contracts, a team could enter that market and be firmly mid-market once they're established.

Montreal is also a considerable market.

[nate82]

2 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

Nashville would be the smallest media market in the sport. 

No it would not.  Milwaukee would still be the smallest in MLB.  The biggest market without a MLB team is actually Orlando.  Charlotte is also higher than Portland according to Nielsen. 

The Milwaukee size markets are Cincinnati, Las Vegas and Jacksonville so you got one right.  Salt Lake City and San Antonio are closer to San Diego and Portland than they are to Milwaukee.  Milwaukee is at 900 households and Nashville is at 1,169 and Portland is at 1,293.  Las Vegas is closer to Milwaukee at 870 households. 

Portland has also been losing population at the sixth fastest rate in the US.  If that continues Portland will be closer to Milwaukee media market wise and if Nashville's population continues to grow it will be closer to Cleveland or Sacramento which both sit around 1,500 households. 

[JosephC]

On 1/7/2023 at 2:47 PM, brewcrewdue80 said:

Forget expansion. Retract to 28 teams. If they're reducing division playing games and playing eachother. Saturate the talent with more money to pay them. Play more 4 game series, less travel.  7teams making playoffs each conference is half the league.  2 teams; 52 less availble players playing nightly will help improve the product fans see. Revenue shared is increased to the remaining receiving teams. 

Making 32 to have 8 divisions now you're awarding 2 more auto qualify playoff teams which with saturating the league with less talented players likely sees below .500 team yearly qualifying while a wild card team misses with a better record. Remember we're playing everybody more equally so a bad 4team division can't have 1 team sneak above .500 because somebody wins when playing versus eachother. It would work I suppose if they adopted top 3 division winners auto bids and best 4 remaining records qualify for playoffs.

Agree with you on the expansion aspect.

I could never figure out why people would want a pro sports league to expand unless the expansion was happening in their market, which by some quick math indicates that 95% of fans should be against expansion.

People do realize that a two-team expansion takes the current pool of actual major league players and expands it by 6.25% and then, after a few years, has that extra 6.25% spread across the league instead of mostly being limited to two teams.  The more expansion, the worse the product becomes league-wide.

If people don't believe that, take all the players on the six worst teams in baseball last year, and then redistribute them to the remaining 24 teams.  Even if the bottom 30% of those rosters are bad (and they should be, because the teams are bad), that still would be 18 "worthy" players from 6 different teams...so 108 players to be redistributed...that's 4.5 players on average for each of the 24 remaining teams.  A team that just missed the playoffs like the Brewers would likely be in a situation where, if it was a 24 team league, they would have been better at 3 or 4 spots on the 26 man roster.  

[Jopal78]

16 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The Carolinas are ripe for expansion and have a massive population, they just don't have a huge single metro area. Given the dominance of television contracts, a team could enter that market and be firmly mid-market once they're established.

Montreal is also a considerable market.

I suppose that depends on how long and for how much money the existing contracts with the Braves are. They’re on the TV in the Carolinas and they certainly are not going to walk away from the market. 
 

Montreal had a team already and they moved it due to market apathy. They had a terrible stadium, they didn’t have a French language broadcast in a city where 2/3 of the people primarily speak French, and in places like Quebec City, even more than that, so hardly anyone cares when they moved out. 
 

I know TB floated playing games there but if the Stadium didn’t work 20 years ago it’s certainly not going to work now. I would also assume the apathy towards the Expos still mostly exists towards baseball making the prospect of a new baseball only stadium a pipe dream.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

43 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

I suppose that depends on how long and for how much money the existing contracts with the Braves are. They’re on the TV in the Carolinas and they certainly are not going to walk away from the market. 

Montreal had a team already and they moved it due to market apathy. They had a terrible stadium, they didn’t have a French language broadcast in a city where 2/3 of the people primarily speak French, and in places like Quebec City, even more than that, so hardly anyone cares when they moved out. 

I know TB floated playing games there but if the Stadium didn’t work 20 years ago it’s certainly not going to work now. I would also assume the apathy towards the Expos still mostly exists towards baseball making the prospect of a new baseball only stadium a pipe dream.

Montreal also got hosed in baseball luck and then MLB basically drove the stake through the heart of the Expos.

1982: Expos have an extremely promising team, MLBPA strike splits the season in two pieces

1994: Expos have an absolute fire roster with young Pedro, Larry Walker, and Cliff Floyd, MLBPA strikes and cancels World Series

2000: Bud Selig and Carl Pohlad high five each other and try their absolutely awful plan of contracting the Twins and Expos

Is it any wonder Montreal is a "bad baseball town"? Maybe if a team stuck around and got to play a good season, a team might do okay there. It also helps if the commissioner doesn't point a shotgun at the city's head.

I don't dislike Selig's tenure as commissioner nearly as much as some but that entire contraction thing was one of the most embarrassing things to ever come out of the commissioner's office.

[Jimbo]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:42 PM, nate82 said:

The Brewers would 1000% be one of the teams to be retracted.  Probably the Rays, A’s and Royals being the other 3 maybe the Pirates instead of the Rays or Royals.  

I ran across this YouTube channel a couple months ago and last week watched this video.  In it, he formulates which markets gets franchises as if MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL never existed and are firing up for the first time today.  Sorry MKE and KC.  Wisconsin would have only one team - in the NHL.  We should be glad we have what we have.

 

[owbc]

MLB is very popular in Canada. Everyone follows the Jays. Once I was in a random town in the mountains of British Columbia in July and they had the Jays game on with a number of people paying attention to them. When the Jays come to Seattle the park is packed with thousands of Jays fans who come down from Vancouver.

The Expos fans are still there in Montreal and follow the Jays now. I have no doubt a team would succeed in Montreal, but they would be cannibalizing an existing fan base. Same for putting an MLB team in Braves country. 

For the same reason the Giants have blocked the A’s from moving to a better spot in the Bay Area like San Jose. 

The main argument for expansion is the fee, which gets split 30 ways. MLB could demand close to a billion dollars per team. 

I think in the next decade the A’s move to Vegas and Tampa gets a new stadium. That’s it. No expansion until the current system of local TV markets/RSNs goes away. 

[nate82]

More talk about expansion at the Athletic today.  It seems like MLB is determined to get to 32 teams once the stadium situation for the Rays and A's is settled.  The teams want to expand to 32 so it is not a question of will but when expansion occurs. 

https://theathletic.com/4159445/2023/02/07/mlb-expansion-geographic-realignment/

[BlightyBrew]

I'm the opposite.  MLB is to blotted now.  Time for a diet. 

There are to many owners and markets that will not spend to compete or cry poverty.  Milwaukee being one of them.  MLB should end the National and American Leagues and contract teams.  Make one league. Move KC, Milw, Oak, Pit etc to AAA.  

Make the MLB 16 to 18 teams in two divisions.  With the winners of the division or top two in each playing a playoff run for the WS.  Eliminate this current mickey mouse playoff system that gives the illusion of being able to compete.

With reduced teams only the top players will be on each roster and most of the roster fillers will be in the minors.  Just think of all the prospects this board can follow then.

Time to end the era of just participating trophy's and banners.

I realize this will never happen as long as fans in these markets are willing to buy the front office message.  

 

[sveumrules]

18 minutes ago, BlightyBrew said:

There are to many owners and markets that will not spend to compete or cry poverty.  Milwaukee being one of them.  MLB should end the National and American Leagues and contract teams.  Make one league. Move KC, Milw, Oak, Pit etc to AAA.  

Eliminate this current mickey mouse playoff system that gives the illusion of being able to compete.

Could you please provide a link to where Mark A has “cried poverty”?

The Brewers have won the 6th most games in MLB over the last five years, that is more than illusory contention.

If some sort of merit based contraction were to occur they wouldn’t even be under consideration.

[Jopal78]

15 hours ago, nate82 said:

More talk about expansion at the Athletic today.  It seems like MLB is determined to get to 32 teams once the stadium situation for the Rays and A's is settled.  The teams want to expand to 32 so it is not a question of will but when expansion occurs. 

https://theathletic.com/4159445/2023/02/07/mlb-expansion-geographic-realignment

Thats like saying I want to buy some 30 inch waist jeans but have to lose 40 pounds first so they’ll fit.
 

Expansion is the easy part, the hard part is first finding new stadiums for the Athletics and Rays. Even with agreeable sites, stadiums probably don’t get built at all without significant public financing, and if there’s a recession or times are tough, public financing would be virtually dead on arrival in most state legislatures.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

Expansion is the easy part, the hard part is first finding new stadiums for the Athletics and Rays. Even with agreeable sites, stadiums probably don’t get built at all without significant public financing, and if there’s a recession or times are tough, public financing would be virtually dead on arrival in most state legislatures.

Indeed. MLB should either just expand or chip in to get these teams new stadiums. I'd prefer the former, obviously, but staying in a holding pattern for 15 years while these issues never get resolved is growing thin.

MLB refusing to expand so that two teams with bad ownership can extort their local municipalities is not the right course of action here and hasn't been for the past decade or more.

[MrTPlush]

7 hours ago, BlightyBrew said:

I'm the opposite.  MLB is to blotted now.  Time for a diet. 

There are to many owners and markets that will not spend to compete or cry poverty.  Milwaukee being one of them.  MLB should end the National and American Leagues and contract teams.  Make one league. Move KC, Milw, Oak, Pit etc to AAA.  

Make the MLB 16 to 18 teams in two divisions.  With the winners of the division or top two in each playing a playoff run for the WS.  Eliminate this current mickey mouse playoff system that gives the illusion of being able to compete.

With reduced teams only the top players will be on each roster and most of the roster fillers will be in the minors.  Just think of all the prospects this board can follow then.

Time to end the era of just participating trophy's and banners.

I realize this will never happen as long as fans in these markets are willing to buy the front office message.  

 

Why are you even a fan?

Correction, you really aren’t a fan it seems…so why do you follow the Brewers just to be negative and try to spread your misery?

I mean this is just troll level posting.

[owbc]

3 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Indeed. MLB should either just expand or chip in to get these teams new stadiums. I'd prefer the former, obviously, but staying in a holding pattern for 15 years while these issues never get resolved is growing thin.

MLB refusing to expand so that two teams with bad ownership can extort their local municipalities is not the right course of action here and hasn't been for the past decade or more.

It seems like a common theme in MLB right now is trying to float unsustainable revenue models that are bad for the fans. The RSN thread is basically the same story. 

This is obviously nothing new, Selig let the Montreal Expos fade into oblivion 20 years ago, but the fact that the widespread destruction of multiple franchises is happening concurrently should be concerning to someone. There's no recovery once it becomes generational and fans move on to supporting other teams. But maybe it isn't since the bottom 10 franchises barely make a dent in revenue numbers and are only useful for extracting public subsidies. 

I often think that Miami Marlins fans are the smartest ones in baseball for never coming back after the World Series fire sale, even after the new stadium, rebranding, new owner, etc. Miami obviously has a massive baseball fanbase and has sold out almost all of their WBC games months in advance, but they are not dumb enough to support a team that has no hope of winning anything in the near future. 

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

23 hours ago, owbc said:

It seems like a common theme in MLB right now is trying to float unsustainable revenue models that are bad for the fans. The RSN thread is basically the same story. 

This is obviously nothing new, Selig let the Montreal Expos fade into oblivion 20 years ago, but the fact that the widespread destruction of multiple franchises is happening concurrently should be concerning to someone. There's no recovery once it becomes generational and fans move on to supporting other teams. But maybe it isn't since the bottom 10 franchises barely make a dent in revenue numbers and are only useful for extracting public subsidies. 

I often think that Miami Marlins fans are the smartest ones in baseball for never coming back after the World Series fire sale, even after the new stadium, rebranding, new owner, etc. Miami obviously has a massive baseball fanbase and has sold out almost all of their WBC games months in advance, but they are not dumb enough to support a team that has no hope of winning anything in the near future. 

I guess, rather than expansion, I'm more interested in stoking fan interest (which is what drives revenue--the NFL is top dog not necessarily because people like football, though of course they do, but because it's basically at the center of the national conversation) by figuring out ways to sustain it over the length of the season.

Rather than teams having "no hope of winning anything," I'd like to see a soccer-style model (I know it'll never happen, but I think it's more enjoyable from a fan perspective, even if that makes me weird). Basically, MLB operates in conjunction with MiLB, and the top-level has 20-24 teams every yeah. Worst ones drop down a league. This rewards teams like the Brewers (who everyone acknowledges are playing a financially unfair game) for simply staying up. 

More importantly, you add competitions. So, MLB plays regular league games, maybe regional tournaments, maybe all short-series playoff-style competitions. You've got such a massive inventory schedule, why not allow for teams who are doing poorly in league play to have a chance to win a secondary trophy of some kind. 

Honestly, if any American sport is suited to that kind of model, it's baseball. Let those Miami Marlin, 10-game hot streaks potentially mean something rather than them simply spoiling other fans' seasons or providing moments of respite in an otherwise bleak year.

[owbc]

1 hour ago, Cool Hand Lucroy said:

I guess, rather than expansion, I'm more interested in stoking fan interest (which is what drives revenue--the NFL is top dog not necessarily because people like football, though of course they do, but because it's basically at the center of the national conversation) by figuring out ways to sustain it over the length of the season.

Rather than teams having "no hope of winning anything," I'd like to see a soccer-style model (I know it'll never happen, but I think it's more enjoyable from a fan perspective, even if that makes me weird). Basically, MLB operates in conjunction with MiLB, and the top-level has 20-24 teams every yeah. Worst ones drop down a league. This rewards teams like the Brewers (who everyone acknowledges are playing a financially unfair game) for simply staying up. 

More importantly, you add competitions. So, MLB plays regular league games, maybe regional tournaments, maybe all short-series playoff-style competitions. You've got such a massive inventory schedule, why not allow for teams who are doing poorly in league play to have a chance to win a secondary trophy of some kind. 

Honestly, if any American sport is suited to that kind of model, it's baseball. Let those Miami Marlin, 10-game hot streaks potentially mean something rather than them simply spoiling other fans' seasons or providing moments of respite in an otherwise bleak year.

Absolutely. There's nothing better than high-stakes baseball. 

Eventually one of the major sports is going to make the bottom teams compete in a tournament for draft picks order rather than using a lottery. Or in a sport like MLB were draft order doesn't matter as much, put some draft pool money on the line as well. 

End the regular season on Labor Day. Half the teams go in the 'playoff' pool, the other half go in the 'draft' pool. The playoff pool teams compete for spots and seeding in the normal postseason in October. The draft pool teams compete for draft dollars and position. Make it a round-robin so there are no eliminations and everyone still plays 162 games that count for regular season stats. You can schedule home games in advance so they are on the 162-game schedule like usual with 'opponent TBD'. 

April baseball is the other month besides September that is full of empty stadiums and uninterested fans. So April should also be a tournament month. Throw all the teams in 4 region-based pools and have them compete for trophies. Or make it more fun, organize the pools based on standings or payroll from the previous season. Again, do most of it as a "round robin" that can be scheduled in advance, then have some silly championship over a weekend. Give the winning players something they will appreciate like an extra day off or less travel. 

[Oxy]

The only "realignment" I care about is to even out the population base for each "home" TV market.  Everybody gets 10 million people or whatever the number is... Brewers would have to get Iowa for this to happen I spose...Prolly have to five the Pirates upstate New York too.

[jerichoholicninja]

Gimmicks like that aren't going to help anything. I doubt the players would care so why would the fans. The NBA's midseason tournament has been mocked by fans and players. I'm sorry but there is really nothing you can do with baseball without fundamentally changing the game of baseball to increase fan interest. It just doesn't appeal to the common public anymore. That's just part of the ebbs and flows of public interest in things.