Cain DFA'd.... Jonathan Davis contract selected

[nate82]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

It was time to go, but sad to see him go this way.  

I remember when Cain was drafted, it hurt when he was traded, but fun to watch the KC Milwaukee team have a good run, and it was good to have him back.  

And I miss the draft and follow process.  

The draft and follow is now back.  

[Axman59]

6 hours ago, areacodes said:

Deciding to not play during a pandemic isn’t quitting on your team and I guarantee the Brewers don’t view him as quitting on them that year either.

Yes, he quit. And as a so-called "leader" of the team it was especially egregious. If there's some special circumstance he was living under I'd like to hear it.

David Price did the same thing to the Dodgers. I hope they didn't give him a WS ring but I'd bet they did.

[Axman59]

5 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I find this take really sad and non-empathetic. People have reasons to make these decisions during a pandemic and those decisions are their own to make. 

You want me to be empathetic to someone who made over $100 million playing a kid's game because he didn't want to deal with the Covid protocols? Nope. Sorry.

I have empathy for coal miners. Meat packers. Grocery store employees. People serving in the military. Nurses. Those people deserve my empathy. Cain does not.

[brewerfan82]

Is there a "couldn't disagree more" button we can add to the forum?

[brewerfan82]

Btw, here's an article regarding Cain's decision to opt out in 2020 and it includes a snippet stating that he did indeed forfeit his remaining salary in doing so: https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2020/08/01/brewers-centerfielder-lorenzo-cain-opts-out-remainder-season/5562796002/

[Brock Beauchamp]

5 hours ago, Axman59 said:

You want me to be empathetic to someone who made over $100 million playing a kid's game because he didn't want to deal with the Covid protocols? Nope. Sorry.

I have empathy for coal miners. Meat packers. Grocery store employees. People serving in the military. Nurses. Those people deserve my empathy. Cain does not.

He’s also a human being and deserves basic respect for making a decision that was his to make. He didn’t hurt anyone by deciding to opt out, as you said, “he’s playing a kid’s game”. 

[Opening Day]

17 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

The cost of 1 win in WAR over the last few years is around $9-10 million. Cain produced 11.5 in WAR over the course of his latest tenure with the Brewers, including this season. So, purely by the numbers, we got what we paid for and more. 

I don’t get valuing 1 war equaling $10 mil.  For example,  Burnes has 2.2right now, if his season ended today, it’s not worth $22 mil.  Jace Peterson has been great this year, but if his season ended today I don’t think $14 mil would be a good deal for the Brewers, and if he continues this the rest of the year I don’t think it would be a good deal to pay him $30 mil his performance.  Where does the $10 mil per WAR come from?  I see that thrown around a lot and I never understood why that’s the standard, it seems like it should be closer to half of that.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't think Cain ever planned to play once he got to his 10 years of service.  He certainly didn't seem ready when the season started to go a full year.  Now if he starts collecting his pension at 45, he gets $68,000 a year.  If he waits until he's 62, he'll get $220K a year.  That's a heck of a pension.

Brewers were the classy ones.  They let him stick around an extra 3-4 weeks after it became obvious he was simply playing out the string. even giving him a number of starts when they desperately needed more offense with Renfroe and Adames out and did him a favor by DFA'ing him so he'd receive the rest of his salary for 2022.

 

[Opening Day]

21 minutes ago, JohnBriggs12 said:

I don't think Cain ever planned to play once he got to his 10 years of service.  He certainly didn't seem ready when the season started to go a full year.  Now if he starts collecting his pension at 45, he gets $68,000 a year.  If he waits until he's 62, he'll get $220K a year.  That's a heck of a pension.

Brewers were the classy ones.  They let him stick around an extra 3-4 weeks after it became obvious he was simply playing out the string. even giving him a number of starts when they desperately needed more offense with Renfroe and Adames out and did him a favor by DFA'ing him so he'd receive the rest of his salary for 2022.

 

If they kept him around only as a favor to get his 10 years in, thats not classy, thats idiotic.  They are already paying him $18 mil this year and he hasnt contributed anything toward winning.  In a tight race, why risk a playoff birth to make sure someone you already paid $80 million get a pension?  Im hoping they thought he might turn it around at some point and contribute to winning baseball and then they came to the realization it wasnt going to happen so they let him go.  I know as a Brewer fan if they lose out to the Cardinals by 1 game, Im going to be pissed if part of the reason why is that they wanted to make sure someone they paid $12 million to stay home got extra checks in retirement.

[tomwopat]

37 minutes ago, JohnBriggs12 said:

[...] did him a favor by DFA'ing him so he'd receive the rest of his salary for 2022.

 

I don't follow, wouldn't he receive his salary regardless given that it's a guaranteed contract? Assuming he doesn't retire, which seems possible, if not likely?

Cain is in my Brewer Hall of Very Good. A fun player to watch, who seemed like a good human as well. Shame he spent a lot of his best years with another club, but the trade made sense at the time. For his return, the Brewers FO deserves some credit in correctly valuing his contract and taking on the right amount of risk.

I can respect his decision to put his family before money or baseball in 2020, the money the club saved there may have factored into the calculus of the timing of his DFA. I'm also curious who pays for the pension, does it come out of a central pot or is it broken up by service time? Or something else completely?

Wonder how much a players physical decline can be attributed to being unwilling to change their conditioning as they age. What worked for you as a 25 year old is not going to be enough as a 35 year old.

[brewerfan82]

27 minutes ago, Opening Day said:

If they kept him around only as a favor to get his 10 years in, thats not classy, thats idiotic.  They are already paying him $18 mil this year and he hasnt contributed anything toward winning.  In a tight race, why risk a playoff birth to make sure someone you already paid $80 million get a pension?  Im hoping they thought he might turn it around at some point and contribute to winning baseball and then they came to the realization it wasnt going to happen so they let him go.  I know as a Brewer fan if they lose out to the Cardinals by 1 game, Im going to be pissed if part of the reason why is that they wanted to make sure someone they paid $12 million to stay home got extra checks in retirement.

It could very well be both. They knew his 10 years was coming up and they also wanted to give him a chance to turn things around. So they set that as the date he needed to show them something by to keep him on board. Unfortunately he looked gassed and it was time to cut ties. For a guy that has been as good as Cain has and has meant as much as he has to the organization, a June cut doesn't feel like they let it drag out an unnecessary amount of time before making a move.

[dlk9s]

14 hours ago, Axman59 said:

Cain lost me as a fan when he quit on the Brewers during the 2020 season.

Sorry he didn't want to risk contracting a potentially deadly/long-term debilitating virus so you could be entertained.

[Brewcrew82]

8 hours ago, Axman59 said:

You want me to be empathetic to someone who made over $100 million playing a kid's game because he didn't want to deal with the Covid protocols? Nope. Sorry.

I have empathy for coal miners. Meat packers. Grocery store employees. People serving in the military. Nurses. Those people deserve my empathy. Cain does not.

How do you know anything about his personal situation? The guy has young kids.... And you should be empathetic, because he's a human and a father/husband regardless of what he does or how much money he makes. This is quite the disturbing take. I recommend not doubling down on it. Or are you one of those people that's mad at Hader for not being in the bullpen this weekend? 

[homer]

2 hours ago, Opening Day said:

If they kept him around only as a favor to get his 10 years in, thats not classy, thats idiotic.  They are already paying him $18 mil this year and he hasnt contributed anything toward winning.  In a tight race, why risk a playoff birth to make sure someone you already paid $80 million get a pension?  Im hoping they thought he might turn it around at some point and contribute to winning baseball and then they came to the realization it wasnt going to happen so they let him go.  I know as a Brewer fan if they lose out to the Cardinals by 1 game, Im going to be pissed if part of the reason why is that they wanted to make sure someone they paid $12 million to stay home got extra checks in retirement.

I guess it depends on when they decided they were going to DFA him. If it was end of last season or if it was three weeks ago makes a difference, IMO.

[NBBrewFan]

9 hours ago, Axman59 said:

You want me to be empathetic to someone who made over $100 million playing a kid's game because he didn't want to deal with the Covid protocols? Nope. Sorry.

I have empathy for coal miners. Meat packers. Grocery store employees. People serving in the military. Nurses. Those people deserve my empathy. Cain does not.

You have limited empathy? 

[NBBrewFan]

38 minutes ago, homer said:

I guess it depends on when they decided they were going to DFA him. If it was end of last season or if it was three weeks ago makes a difference, IMO.

My guess was that it was a process and when they got close to a decision that he couldn't contribute to the team they decided to wait until he got his 10 years of service time to DFA him.

[sveumrules]

6 hours ago, Opening Day said:

I don’t get valuing 1 war equaling $10 mil.  For example,  Burnes has 2.2right now, if his season ended today, it’s not worth $22 mil.  Jace Peterson has been great this year, but if his season ended today I don’t think $14 mil would be a good deal for the Brewers, and if he continues this the rest of the year I don’t think it would be a good deal to pay him $30 mil his performance.  Where does the $10 mil per WAR come from?  I see that thrown around a lot and I never understood why that’s the standard, it seems like it should be closer to half of that.

Dollar/WAR framework comes from looking at past free agent contracts & then seeing how much value those players went on to provide.

Actual studies are obviously much more comprehensive, but looking at the top dozen free agents from Lo Cain’s offseason does a pretty good job of illustrating the quagmires of FA & how Lorenzo’s contract ends up in the black…

Hosmer 7/144 (3.7 WAR)

Darvish 6/126 (8.3 WAR)

JD Mart 6/110 (14.3 WAR)

Lorenzo 5/80 (11.6 WAR)

Arrieta 4/75 (1.8 WAR)

Santana 3/60 (7.6 WAR)

A Cobb 4/57 (3.1 WAR)

W Davis 3/52 (-1.3 WAR)

J Bruce 3/39 (-0.2 WAR)

Chatwood 3/38 (0.8 WAR)

Cozart 3/38 (-1.1 WAR)

Minor 3/28 (11.8 WAR)

Here’s the most recent FG article I could find on the topic,though they use a forward looking methodology (dollars divided by projected WAR at time of signing) vs a backward looking methodology (dollars divided by WAR at contract conclusion)…

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/what-are-teams-paying-per-war-in-free-agency/

[Ulice Payne]

I bet the best part of retiring from MLB is leaving a world where at 35 you are an old man, and going back into regular life where at 35 you are a young man again

 

[JRob1125]

Faulting Cain for opting out during a global pandemic is just stupid. Sorry. What a terrible take

[MoreTrife]

12 hours ago, dlk9s said:

Sorry he didn't want to risk contracting a potentially deadly/long-term debilitating virus so you could be entertained.

Go look at the stats on deaths in the elite athlete demographic from COVID LOL. 

[Underachiever]

16 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

He’s also a human being and deserves basic respect for making a decision that was his to make. He didn’t hurt anyone by deciding to opt out, as you said, “he’s playing a kid’s game”. 

Agreed. I don’t know how anyone can make the mental gymnastic leap that “it’s a kids’ game” and then take a guy to task for not playing that same kids’ game as if it was important that he sat out. I don’t know how someone can watch pro sports and have so much scorn for athletes that play. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, MoreTrife said:

Go look at the stats on deaths in the elite athlete demographic from COVID LOL. 

LOL at yourself. Besides the fact that he has a young family at home to think about, there are numerous cases of athletes ending up with serious side effects from the virus (myocarditis, etc.). And he made his decision at a time when there were no vaccines available and we still knew relatively little about the virus and playing sports during a pandemic. But yeah, woe to Cain for not seeing things your way…

[clancyphile]

On 6/18/2022 at 11:55 PM, CheezWizHed said:

It was time to go, but sad to see him go this way.  

I remember when Cain was drafted, it hurt when he was traded, but fun to watch the KC Milwaukee team have a good run, and it was good to have him back.  

And I miss the draft and follow process.  

I agree. I'd like to see that brought back, with a bigger draft and a restoration of the short-season R+ leagues. The Brewers NEED to have a bigger farm system to keep the talent pipeline going.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

8 hours ago, MoreTrife said:

Go look at the stats on deaths in the elite athlete demographic from COVID LOL. 

I fear this thread is veering down a politically contentious path that it shouldn't.

That said, the only response I have to this particular post is "Wow!" mixed with head-shaking disappointment.

[MoreTrife]

20 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

I fear this thread is veering down a politically contentious path that it shouldn't.

That said, the only response I have to this particular post is "Wow!" mixed with head-shaking disappointment.

I agree, shut down ALL COVID talk.

Delete mine and dlk9s's. Otherwise I feel the need to correct a suggestion Cain was facing death (which is what dlk9's said), which is completely false even in July 2020 (unless you mean like non zero statistical chance).

For the record, it didn't even register to me when Cain opted out. What bothers me is COVID fear talk. It doesn't belong on a baseball website.