Lorenzo Cain performance thread

[Brewcrew82]

Had to do a double take when scrolling through baseball reference today. Lorenzo Cain's offensive "eruption" yesterday now has him in positive WAR territory, 0.3 to be exact. I think that speaks to the value he still possesses with the glove, which is important at a cornerstone defensive position such as centerfield. So, if he can build on yesterday and not revert back to hitting like Ben Sheets, I think he still has a place on this team as an occasional starter/late-inning defensive replacement. 

[SRB]

Across the entire month of May he's been much closer to "acceptably bad" (.226/.294/.306/.601, .275 wOBA) given his plus defense, versus "unplayable" like he was in April.

I'll admit that the eye test has not been super promising, but all of the projection system rest-of-season updates still think he will be solid across the rest of the season.

[NBBrewFan]

18 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Had to do a double take when scrolling through baseball reference today. Lorenzo Cain's offensive "eruption" yesterday now has him in positive WAR territory, 0.3 to be exact. I think that speaks to the value he still possesses with the glove, which is important at a cornerstone defensive position such as centerfield. So, if he can build on yesterday and not revert back to hitting like Ben Sheets, I think he still has a place on this team as an occasional starter/late-inning defensive replacement.

WAR is a useful tool, but it sometimes isn't useful in a vacuum.  Sure, Lorenzo Cain is a better option than 99.9% of the ushers at AmFam, but is he better than another option on the team?  What's Cain's WAOO (or Wins Above Other Option) when that other option is Tyrone Taylor.  We saw yesterday that Taylor is a very good defender (and metrics support that), and his offense has always played better than Cain's.  So I don't really care that Cain is above a replacement player when he is far worse than another option on the Team.  Does the small difference in their defensive results wipe out their massive difference in offense?

And what was that look from CC after the review of the Taylor catch? On mlb.com he had this sour look on his face.  C'mon man, your player just made a fantastic catch to end an inning and get your pitcher out of a jam, look like it.  Or was he upset that TT keeps making his decision to trot the senior citizen Cain out game after game look so bad when there is clearly a better option already on the team?

[SRB]

For the record, Taylor already has more playing time this season than Cain, so I don't see any evidence that CC has a vendetta against him. Much like McCutchen, I think Cain is continuing to get a decent amount of playing time in the hope that it will jumpstart his bat. (Not a terrible strategy in my opinion considering we are winning and have the luxury of giving guys a longer rope.)

[sveumrules]

Yeah, I think Cain has already lost the starting CF job. Tyrone started 4 of 5 in CF from 5/18 to 5/23 with Lorenzo only getting regular PAs again following the Renfroe injury.

See what happens when Hunter is back, but I would guess TT keeps getting regular time in CF with Lorenzo shifting to more of the 4th OF role.

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

Yeah, I think Cain has already lost the starting CF job. Tyrone started 4 of 5 in CF from 5/18 to 5/23 with Lorenzo only getting regular PAs again following the Renfroe injury.

See what happens when Hunter is back, but I would guess TT keeps getting regular time in CF with Lorenzo shifting to more of the 4th OF role.

This is as it should be. It’s just the way things were trending it was looking like the Brewers were going to eventually have no choice but to DFA Cain. Now, I’m of the opinion that, if he can continue to hit like he has been recently (which obviously isn’t anything to write home about), he can probably still find a way to carve out a lesser role on this team with his defense. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, NBBrewFan said:

WAR is a useful tool, but it sometimes isn't useful in a vacuum.  Sure, Lorenzo Cain is a better option than 99.9% of the ushers at AmFam, but is he better than another option on the team?  What's Cain's WAOO (or Wins Above Other Option) when that other option is Tyrone Taylor.  We saw yesterday that Taylor is a very good defender (and metrics support that), and his offense has always played better than Cain's.  So I don't really care that Cain is above a replacement player when he is far worse than another option on the Team.  Does the small difference in their defensive results wipe out their massive difference in offense?

And what was that look from CC after the review of the Taylor catch? On mlb.com he had this sour look on his face.  C'mon man, your player just made a fantastic catch to end an inning and get your pitcher out of a jam, look like it.  Or was he upset that TT keeps making his decision to trot the senior citizen Cain out game after game look so bad when there is clearly a better option already on the team?

Notice I said that Cain may still have a place on this team as an occasional starter/late-inning defensive replacement. That means I agree that Taylor should get the lion's share of starting opportunities in CF, which he has absolutely earned. My comments were strictly about remaining on the team, as opposed to being DFA'd, where it looked like things were heading for quite awhile. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ouch. He's still at zero barrels per Baseball Savant. I thought he might have barreled that homer but no, he's still sitting at zero.

[Robocaller]

Talk about Reverse Splits, Cain is hitting 0.031 vs LHP this season.

[sveumrules]

There are currently 264 players with at least 100 PAs this season. With 30 teams & 9 lineup spots, this more or less represents the pool of "regular" players to this point.

Lorenzo's 191/254/252 line is "good" for a 46 wRC+, which only ranks 259th. Here are the five players less able than Cain thus far, plus a few other familiar names on the last page of the leaderboard...

Martin Maldonado 127/205/236 (32 wRC+)
Leury Garcia 190/200/276 (33 wRC+)
Christian Pache 170/213/145 (35 wRC+)
Austin Hedges 152/222/253 (39 wRC+)
Robinson Chirinos 141/238/250 (44 wRC+)
Avisail Garcia 201/231/282 (49 wRC+)
Jonathan Schoop 185/228/312 (54 wRC+)
Yasmani Grandal 169/279/225 (54 wRC+)
Javier Baez 195/236/302 (55 wRC+)
Marcus Semien 197/261/268 (56 wRC+)
Alcides Escobar 222/266/291 (57 wRC+)
Trent Grisham 160/263/267 (60 wRC+)

[NBBrewFan]

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that so many have a connection to the Brewers.

[owbc]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

There are currently 264 players with at least 100 PAs this season. With 30 teams & 9 lineup spots, this more or less represents the pool of "regular" players to this point.

Lorenzo's 191/254/252 line is "good" for a 46 wRC+, which only ranks 259th. Here are the five players less able than Cain thus far, plus a few other familiar names on the last page of the leaderboard...

Martin Maldonado 127/205/236 (32 wRC+)
Leury Garcia 190/200/276 (33 wRC+)
Christian Pache 170/213/145 (35 wRC+)
Austin Hedges 152/222/253 (39 wRC+)
Robinson Chirinos 141/238/250 (44 wRC+)
Avisail Garcia 201/231/282 (49 wRC+)
Jonathan Schoop 185/228/312 (54 wRC+)
Yasmani Grandal 169/279/225 (54 wRC+)
Javier Baez 195/236/302 (55 wRC+)
Marcus Semien 197/261/268 (56 wRC+)
Alcides Escobar 222/266/291 (57 wRC+)
Trent Grisham 160/263/267 (60 wRC+)

Great, we upgraded over JBJ's 35 wRC+ from 2021. 

[nate82]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

There are currently 264 players with at least 100 PAs this season. With 30 teams & 9 lineup spots, this more or less represents the pool of "regular" players to this point.

Lorenzo's 191/254/252 line is "good" for a 46 wRC+, which only ranks 259th. Here are the five players less able than Cain thus far, plus a few other familiar names on the last page of the leaderboard...

Martin Maldonado 127/205/236 (32 wRC+)
Leury Garcia 190/200/276 (33 wRC+)
Christian Pache 170/213/145 (35 wRC+)
Austin Hedges 152/222/253 (39 wRC+)
Robinson Chirinos 141/238/250 (44 wRC+)
Avisail Garcia 201/231/282 (49 wRC+)
Jonathan Schoop 185/228/312 (54 wRC+)
Yasmani Grandal 169/279/225 (54 wRC+)
Javier Baez 195/236/302 (55 wRC+)
Marcus Semien 197/261/268 (56 wRC+)
Alcides Escobar 222/266/291 (57 wRC+)
Trent Grisham 160/263/267 (60 wRC+)

I didn't think Grandal was doing that badly and yikes at Baez that contract is looking worse than Yelich's.  

[owbc]

With the universal DH, it's becoming more common for MLB teams to play a defensive specialist at a high value position. Catcher is the most common spot, but it makes sense to do so in CF as well. 

Cain can't hit anymore, and there doesn't seem to be a pathway to him regressing to even an average CF offensively. But Cain can still play defense, and he's giving us value there. TT is not an elite defensive CF like Cain is, but TT is above average defensively and he's more than making up the difference with his bat. The Brewers are certainly well aware of this and it's not surprising that the playing time is being allocated accordingly. 

To me that situation is resolving itself just fine. It's not a surprise that most of Cain's production came on the front end of that contract. He met expectations in my view. The bigger problem is that you can make a case for TT over Yelich right now. If Cain does remember how to hit, then Yelich is the one who should lose playing time. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Robocaller said:

Talk about Reverse Splits, Cain is hitting 0.031 vs LHP this season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

31 minutes ago, owbc said:

To me that situation is resolving itself just fine. It's not a surprise that most of Cain's production came on the front end of that contract. He met expectations in my view. The bigger problem is that you can make a case for TT over Yelich right now. If Cain does remember how to hit, then Yelich is the one who should lose playing time. 

Lorenzo Cain needs to hit a lot more before this becomes a problem and there's little indication he's going to rebound. He's simply not making good contact in any way, which is a really bad sign going forward. Whereas Yelich has absolutely mashed the ball at times this season.

[owbc]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Lorenzo Cain needs to hit a lot more before this becomes a problem and there's little indication he's going to rebound. He's simply not making good contact in any way, which is a really bad sign going forward. Whereas Yelich has absolutely mashed the ball at times this season.

Oh man, you weren't joking, Cain's statcast sliders are bruuutal. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, owbc said:

Oh man, you weren't joking, Cain's statcast sliders are bruuutal. 

Oh yeah, they’re horrific. 

[Robocaller]

After his "big game" he's 0-8 with 8 LOB.

 

[brewers888]

Not only is the bat nonexistent but the defense appears to have slipped some as well. I think both Cain and McCutchen need to be off the roster as soon as possible. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

23 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

Not only is the bat nonexistent but the defense appears to have slipped some as well. I think both Cain and McCutchen need to be off the roster as soon as possible. 

With what the Brewers are paying them, that is not going to happen, at least any time soon. 

[DuWayne Steurer]

20 hours ago, NBBrewFan said:

 

And what was that look from CC after the review of the Taylor catch? On mlb.com he had this sour look on his face.  C'mon man, your player just made a fantastic catch to end an inning and get your pitcher out of a jam, look like it.  Or was he upset that TT keeps making his decision to trot the senior citizen Cain out game after game look so bad when there is clearly a better option already on the team?

I would guess that he was a little cringey seeing another key player going hard into a wall when they're ready down Adames and Renfroe.

I wouldn't read much more into it than that. 

[brewers888]

21 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

With what the Brewers are paying them, that is not going to happen, at least any time soon. 

Counsell is very stubborn when it comes to veterans and its a big problem. At least it looks like Taylor will be the primary CF going forward but McCutchen just plays everyday no matter what.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

12 minutes ago, brewers888 said:

Counsell is very stubborn when it comes to veterans and its a big problem. At least it looks like Taylor will be the primary CF going forward but McCutchen just plays everyday no matter what.

Because they signed him, and are paying him a good amount, to be this team's primary DH. When you make a sizable economic investment in a player, they typically have a pretty long leash. Cutch is going through a dry spell, but he's also had stretches where he's looked fine. They aren't going to dump him now. 

[brewers888]

5 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Because they signed him, and are paying him a good amount, to be this team's primary DH. When you make a sizable economic investment in a player, they typically have a pretty long leash. Cutch is going through a dry spell, but he's also had stretches where he's looked fine. They aren't going to dump him now. 

The signing made no sense at the time as he flat out can't hit righties and spending that much money on the short side of a platoon is a poor use of resources. Counsell playing him everyday is just making things worse. I am sure to receive criticism for this but I wonder if Stearns hasn't already checked out especially since many of the Mets moves last offseason were the types of transactions he would make.