Keep Brewerfan Beautiful; 3 Strike Discussion

[Brian the Automator]

As the popularity of the Milwaukee Brewers has increased, so has the number of users on this site. I enjoy the increased excitement surrounding the teams, and the new points of view that new users provide. However, in my eyes, some aspects of the site have become unmanageable. Also, some of the

things that separate us from some of the other fan forums (like Brewers.com, ESPN.com and JSOnline.com) are in jeopardy.

 

Let me start by saying that I am always open to suggestion, and constructive criticism as to how we run Brewerfan.net are always welcome. Many of the regulars have messaged me privately when they have taken issue with how I handled something. I must say that nothing is ever held against anyone when this has been the case. I make mistakes, and two differing opinions can both have equal merit.

 

Now... some of the things that have been bothering me recently:

 

1) serial one-line posting

 

No one gets points for how many posts they have. It's my observation that there are some people that feel that they need to chime in on every topic, just because it's there. Some of my favorite posters are some that have fewer than 300 posts. Pick your spots, and add something back into the site.

I know that I've been guilty of a one-line post here and there, and there certainly are occasions where less words are just fine to convey a point...

 

but when these things become serial behavior, it detracts from the site.

 

2) Posting threads with subject lines like this!!!!!!

 

In our FAQ we ask that people avoid excessive punctuation. If one person adds two !!'s to their thread, and some adds three !!!'s, it becomes a raise to whose subject line is the loudest. I would hope that when someone posts a thread, it's well thought out and worth of people's attention. Unless it's something like "Brewers win the world series!!!!", it's just a thread. It's best just to avoid yelling in the subject lines completely.

 

3) Something you really need to read

 

The above is an example of an ambiguous subject. This isn't radio or tv, so no one's going to switch channels, so no need for a teaser. Please make the subject lines to the point so people don't ignore it, or waste their time if it's a topic they're not interested in. I'm all for creative headlines, but please try to keep them relevant.

 

4) Talking down to people

 

Heated debate is unavoidable at times. However, there are plenty of examples of people on the site who handle it gracefully. Internet big-man syndrome is something that really bothers me. I would like to think that I'm totally approachable in real life and here at Brewerfan. I'm sure that there are some people who might say that isn't the case, but I really do try my best to be completely transparent.

 

5) AOL speak

 

If you have carpal tunnel, try a program like AutoHotkey that will translate your AOL speak on the fly. Otherwise, it smacks of 12 year old girl. I don't mind it so much in the chat room, but take some pride in your posts. I know that I take more seriously someone who takes their language seriously, and I'm sure many others do to. U got it?

 

6) Ignoring the cuss rules or underignoring them

 

Words that are banned are bleeped out. Words that aren't banned aren't bleeped out. If you're using colorful language, please respect the rules of the site and preview your post to make sure it all flies. Conversely. there's no need to use "a$$", as ass is not a word that we've placed on the list. We

may be prudish, but we're not THAT prudish.

 

And as I wrote this message, I saw at least two examples of the above. Let's keep Brewerfan beautiful, eh? I'm posting this in the major league forum, because even though it's requested when you sign up, it's apparent that people aren't reading the FAQ, located in the Issues forum.

[Principessa21]

Breaking Brian's commandments...that's a paddlin'

[brewtown82]

I agree with you totally, and appreciate your post. The whole Internet machismo is getting really old. I think it says something about our culture that the one time we actually assert ourselves and get outraged is on message boards about relatively meaningless things, but when we have an election everyone just kind of says "meh" and either doesn't vote or votes for some guy because he has the best chance of winning, even if they don't agree with any of their positions on issues.

 

Sorry. This is more of a vent, and kind of off-topic. I'll try not to do it again.

[Yaz]

Hello Brian,

 

Thank you for this post. I think it was long overdue. I find myself wanting to unsub from this forum completely at times. What I really like about Brewerfan is knowledgable fans and great insightful conversation regarding everything that is the Milwaukee Brewers.

 

Ok now you need to give a similar critique to our current version of the Milwaukee Brewers. Lord knows they need it. :-)

[UWRyan428]

I have to admit that I have always been the type to explore the boundaries and act as devil's advocate in most respects, but Brian's direction of this site has always been fair, consistent, and pleasant. We are a community, and as such, I appreciate that we treat eachother fairly....unless a hapless North-sider decides to descend upon our community. Then, it's Scorched Earth policy!

[billyhallfan]

Quote:

---

1) serial one-line posting

---

 

First off, I know that I have broken this as well as others, but I really think that the whole one-line rule is confusing. Obviously posts like "LOL" or "My thoughts exactly" are seen often, however, sometimes I think people that write a 2 or 3 line post about how they agreed with someone, or was commenting on how funny something was is the same thing only stretched out more. For example, say someone wrote out a post about how Bill Hall should be sat down for a game or so...

 

What is the difference between these two replies in the eyes of a moderator:

 

"My Thoughts Exactly..."

 

--OR--

 

"I agree with you completely, I went to the game last night and Bill obviously isn't seeing the ball, all the stats that you listed were right on the money and I think that Ned really needs to sit him for a few days and put in Gross"

 

I mean seriously, I see no difference between the two whatsoever, they both contain really the same thought, one is just longer than the other.

 

Obviously one-liners are lame at times, but sometimes they are more than appropriate, and I think that it posters think that it is unnacceptable unless you post a 2 paragraph story, and I personally don't deem it neccessary...

 

 

 

But, I am just like everybody else, and my opinion doesn't matter, bottom line I come on here at least 5 times a day, and I think that you Brian as well as pogo, 1992Casey, colbyjack, as well as others do a great job on here...and keep up the good work!

[SenatorShriv]

I guess I would wonder why that post needed to be made at all? If someone else has already stated your opinion why clutter up the thread and make everyone read through extra posts that aren't adding new substance?

[brewers19]

Just like Brian said, it's mostly there to crack down on the people who feel the need to comment on anything and everything, often adding nothing to the thread/conversation.

Length is not really the issue, but rather the effort and thought put into the post.

 

and my opinion doesn't matter

 

That's untrue. We're continuously striving to improve this site and because this community wouldn't exist without everyone's contributions, we always take opinions and suggestions into consideration.

[billyhallfan]

Quote:

---

I guess I would wonder why that post needed to be made at all? If someone else has already stated your opinion why clutter up the thread and make everyone read through extra posts that aren't adding new substance?

---

 

I know that whenever I make a post I like to have others say that they agree or whatnot, obviously it is nice if they state their opinion as well, but how boring would it be if someone starts a "Brewers Win The World Series!!!" thread and no one comments because they all agree that it was sweet and no comments need to be made, now obviously that is a stretch, but hopefully you get the idea.

[Brian the Automator]

[ I mean seriously, I see no difference between the two whatsoever, they both contain really the same thought, one is just longer than the other. ]

 

Like I mentioned above, there are times when one line posts are appropriate, and times when they aren't. Posts like:

 

"no"

 

...are inappropriate about 99% of the time. The point is, I'd like people to expound on their thoughts. That generates conversation. I echo the sentiment above, though, that it's not necessary to post "I agree", simply because you do... Although, generally, you'll probably have additional information floating around in your noggin that would stimulate further conversation.

[sbrylski]

I know that whenever I make a post I like to have others say that they agree or whatnot, obviously it is nice if they state their opinion as well, but how boring would it be if someone starts a "Brewers Win The World Series!!!" thread and no one comments because they all agree that it was sweet and no comments need to be made, now obviously that is a stretch, but hopefully you get the idea.

 

That would be pretty funny. Maybe we should go post our: YAHOOOOO!'s on the Brewers.com board, just to save a couple bucks over here.

[trwi7]

Wow expounding upon our thoughts. I don't like this site anymore if you're going to make me think.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Either way I agree with the post Brian it's just really hard to control yourself when you're watching such poor baseball right now which makes me question the timing of this thread and if it was posted now because people are on edge with the way the team is playing.

 

Wow that's a nice run-on sentence.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Fatter than Joey]

Serial one-liners

 

The ones I don't like are the ones that do not add anything to the thread. For example:

 

Thread: -- "Whats your favorite movie"

Post: -- Movies are stupid.

 

Another example are the "remain calm/don't jump off the bridge" that seem to crop up whenever a thread pops up calling out a player or manager.

[sbrylski]

Another example are the "remain calm/don't jump off the bridge" that seem to crop up whenever a thread pops up calling out a player or manager.

 

Put it in the sig! (see below)

[Big Reed]

I think posts that have stupid pictures as their single entry are just as trashy and degrading to a website as one line sarcastic replies. You may think your pictures and cartoons are really funny. I don't. I think the majority of them are in bad taste. Do you agree Brian? Do you agree Kat?

 

I also believe if you are going to take the time to edit people's posts that contain one too m any exclam ation marks, then you should also take the time t o correc t tha t persons' spellin and grammer two. You know, as long as your editing a person's post, you might as wel l do a jo b and finish the job right.

 

Now that I have your attention!

 

You have to also find your niche. What is brewerfans' niche? What is your market? What type of poster do you want to apeal to? What type of poster do you want to cater to? Who are you trying to impress? the average Brewers fan? or Baseball America and the Brewers' front office? What is your ultimate goal/vision/focus for Brewerfan? to be fully subsidized and made an official site by the Brewers or Milwaukee Journal?

 

I also believe you should treat a poster as a customer. but who are your customers? and who do you want to be your customers? this site has a definite tone about it. No trolls allowed. No trash talk allowed. Only intelligent baseball talk! While you may not degrade people, for good or bad, brewerfan has a certain aura about it that some people just don't like. It's like going to Morton's of Chicago for dinner or staying at the Ritz in New York. Many people from all facets of life have heard of the Ritz and Mortons. But very few people enter their doors because they feel they just don't fit in. Sometimes I feel brewerfan is more like a nice college prep academy rather than a bar or a barber shop where guys can speak their minds about the Brewers. Where is the let's do golf on Thursday afternoon thread? or was that a private memo sent to your foursome?

 

Who do you want as your posters and readers? Upper middle class yuppies aged 21-32? There was a thread not too long ago where posters were posting their SAT and ACT scores. The average SAT score was well over 1200. That's definitely not the typical sports fan or the typical student/person.

 

As I said, you have to find your niche. With your current posting rules, you are defining what that niche will be. There is nothing wrong with being compared to Morton's of Chicago or the Ritz of New York. There is nothing wrong with catering to Northwestern or U of Chicago graduates. They are well respected throughout the world. Nobody thinks bad of a Stanford grad! But in so doing, you must understand there is a vast audience that will be left without a place to speak their mind because they are afraid people will mock their grammer, or they know no other language other than cell phone txt; or their words and dialect are too colorful; or they'd just rather rap with their friends.

 

if web sites were like fast food resteraunts, I'd say brewerfan would be an Arby's or a Wendys. The food is good, the place is clean, but a little too expensive for the taste of the majority of people. ESPN is kind of like a MacDonalds. You know what you are getting and it's cheap. Some MacDonalds like the one at Disney are nice. Others like the one in Hammond and Gary are kind of trashy and a little unsafe. However , they've been in business for the last 40 years because they let their customers do whatever they want. They cave in to the demands of their customers to stay in business and to stay alive. You can let your customers/posters dictate to you what they want. or you can maintain certain standards knowing some customers will never come in your door.

 

brian, i know when you wrote your post, you did so with very good intentions. You probably knew I'd read the post and respond to it. You were probably hesitant not knowing what type of response your post would generate. And you knew my reply would not be a one liner. I read a thread this past month where colby was arguing with somebody on the draft forum. i always thought of colby as a smart, well tempered baseball guy. I didn't realize before that thread that Colby actually has a job working for a baseball related magazine. I thought he was just a fan. Now I realize he's more than just a fan. This site started out as a site for the fans and by the fans. And now it has become much more than that. and you have become much more than just a fan. brewerfan is not just a personal blog site that you can just shut down. It's become an official baseball site recognized by members of the real press; the real media, and the brewers' ownership, Because of that, you have certain standards and rules you must enforce.

 

I kind of liked the old days of trash talking and craziness of the troll wars. I loved annoying the heck out of you defending all the trolls' rights for their freedom of trolling. I loved playing mind games with art teachers from Reedsville. it's kind of funny my main nemisis turbo rickey aka strutter aka many other names teaches in a city named after me. However, I realize those fun days are over.

 

You've got a great site Brian. I'm proud of you and what you have become. As Rickey Nelson once sang, "you can't please everybody, So you've got to please your self." the image of brewerfan is a self protrait of yourself. it has your heart and soul in it. As they say in the business world, it's your "baby".

 

I. on the other hand, am a pirate; a dinosaur; a troll; an annoying big brother; an Eddie Murphy Donkey; a lonely Ogre. My Air Force Commanding officer used the term " loose cannon" to describe me. I like the direction brewerfan is going. Will I follow it? Probably not. Our paths will cross many times in the future, but they will never be joined.

 

God Speed!

[iluvlamp]

http://generallyawesome.com/photos/funny/funny-photos.jpg

 

Someone had to.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

edit. Reed I liked your post overall. You should maybe post a picture once in a while. Sometimes they are worth a thousand words.

[Fatter than Joey]

But in so doing, you must understand there is a vast audience that will be left without a place to speak their mind because they are afraid people will mock their grammer

 

"grammer" should be "grammar" http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Actually -- in all fairness, I think this community does a great job skipping over typos and mis-spellings, and focusing more on the content and message of posts.

[Brian the Automator]

[ As I said, you have to find your niche. ]

 

Our niche has remained constant since day one. We target those who want to talk seriously about baseball, in an environment free of trolls and message board tough guys.

 

I'm not redefining what needs to occur at all. Much of what I've said is in the FAQ, which people either haven't bothered to read, or choose to ignore.

 

The site was born as people wanted to get away from how things were being handled at the ESPN message board. People wanted something a bit different. Those who enjoy being around flame wars and trolling can feel free to be around them in another venue.

 

In short, we just do what we've always done. The site used to be self-policing, but now it's not, due to its growth. I'm not going to bastardize the maturity of the site's content to appeal to a larger audience. If that means people calling us elitists, so be it. I don't have any corporate sponsorship politics to deal with, so I get to call the shots. If the user base doesn't like it and tapers down, it doesn't bother me.

 

We're not Arby's.

[SoCalBrewfan]

"I agree with you completely, I went to the game last night and Bill obviously isn't seeing the ball, all the stats that you listed were right on the money and I think that Ned really needs to sit him for a few days and put in Gross"

 

To me, that's a very different beast...there's some discussion there. But it's not any single post that is the issue...it's the chat-room level conversations and serial offenders that drag things down. We don't need dissertations in every post...and I know I've done my share of short responses, as has everyone.

 

The in-game thread of course is a different format.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm starting to understand why a site like SOSH limits it's membership. (1800 members, IIRC)

 

As we're talking about people saying stuff like "I agree", or using a longer sentence to say the same thing, it brings up a valid point. As the site here grows, there's more and more people joining these discussions. I find that a lot of times as I click on threads that have interest to me, by the time I get to them, everything I could think of to say has already been said by somebody. I don't think it's automatically "wrong" to repeat a point in your own words, or even expand the thought further, that's just not something I do personally. Consequently, I've seen my posting numbers drop dramatically. Not that post count matters one bit, I'm just sayin'........

 

I'm not concluding that BF should try to limit membership or anything along those lines, I'm only suggesting that this is the reason we're getting a lot of "I agree" type posts. There's only so many different opinions that can be had on a subject, and when there's 2,000 + people discussing it, there's only so many ways it can be said.

 

 

I also wanted to comment, Brian, on your line here.....

I'm not going to bastardize the maturity of the site's content to appeal to a larger audience. If that means people calling us elitists, so be it.

 

 

Um.....I agree! Seriously though, this site is what it is because of the "elitist" atmosphere, and I hope that never changes. If there's people that want ESPN type posting, (LOL, Jenkins SuXoRs!), that place will always be there for them.

[hawing]

Billyhallfan, and others wondering about the one-liner issue, you won't be warned or banned for a one line post (unless it's all swearing or something). If one-liners are all you produce, that's what concerns us. As with much else in life, moderation is the key.

[1992casey]

If one line is all it takes to write a valid and useful response, that's fine.

 

The problem is when people think they're Rodney Dangerfield (and aren't). As an example, there was a Wes Helms thread over the winter that had three Krispy Kreme one-liners by the same person within the first ten posts of the thread.

 

I don't think anyone's looking to eliminate wisecracks completely. As hawing mentioned above, moderation is the key. In my case, if I smell a one-liner coming on, I'd guess that about two thirds of the time, I decide it really isn't funny, and it doesn't get posted.

 

I'd define 'serial' one-lining two ways:

1. The same person posting this stuff over and over.

2. Responding to one person's one-liner with more one-liners, creating a competition of sorts.

Big Reed, I think the more appropriate analogy would be to compare forum members to guests in Brian's house, with staff and moderators being the servants. But if you want to use the customer analogy, we're trying to maintain what the 'customers' wanted back in 2001 when this site was started.

 

I tend to agree with you about the 'stupid' pictures, although I'd have chosen an adjective like 'silly' instead to avoid the condescension. In small doses, they're probably fine. If they comprise the majority of a person's posts or if they instigate a 'competition', they're the same as 'serial' one-liners. Example: I'm fine with iluvlamp's graphic above. A bunch of graphics like it would become an issue.

 

 

EDIT: If this site ever has a "Brewers Win The World Series!!!" thread, I don't think we're going to care a lot about what gets posted in it.

[Big Reed]

That was a very good analogy about how posters are not customers, but rather we are guests in brian's house and should act accordingly. But I would respectfully disagree. This is not a premium channel or pay site. There is no password, fee or membership club card number. This is not a private club or a personal blog. This is not a yahoo group that requires the poster to write something before inclusion is given. this is not a restricted MSN site only for brewers fans. This is a public domain access site. And as such, we are not guests into Brian's house, but rather customers he has to deal with. As with any type of business, there are always some customers that you love to see every day. But there are always 1-3 that you dread their arrival because you know they will find something to complain about, or they expect extra attention, or they will return something that was perfectly fine. or they will compare you to some other store and demand that you beat or match the other store's price. You dread those days, but you know they will happen if you keep the store/ web site public. it's how you deal with those customers that will determine your success.

 

I think a good analogy of what brewerfan is would be from the movie You've Got Mail. Brian has said many times he could care less how big his readership grows. he founded the site for intellectual baseball talk. The Corner Book store in that movie was passed on from generation to generation as a business that cared more about books than profit. . It had it's own clientel and its loyal store clerks.. it did not try to compete with Fox books. it was well respected in its own circles. but it didn't make its owner very rich. the corner book store had its own niche. and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Brian the Automator]

[ This is a public domain access site. And as such, we are not guests into Brian's house, but rather customers he has to deal with. ]

 

This site isn't a democracy. I'm always looking for user feedback to help improve the site. However, when that user feedback conflicts with the vision I have for the site, I'm going to go with my own judgment.

[Team Canada]

This is a public domain access site. And as such, we are not guests into Brian's house, but rather customers he has to deal with.

 

 

Wrong. This is Brian's site, he owns it, he pays for hosting, etc etc. He can do whatever he wants, including telling you to follow rules. He doesn't have to deal with anyone, it's called banning.