When Does The Lockout End? Answer: March 10th, 2022

[sveumrules]

The irony is not lost on me that one of the key player reps who took part in most of these negotiations was Max Scherzer, fresh off inking a fully guaranteed 3 yr deal at the conclusion of the last CBA that is apparently horrible for players that will pay him about $43m per season to pitch in about 32 regular season games until he is 40. He will also be getting annual $15m in deferred money from his last contract through 2028, giving him about $375m in career earnings as a player. I dont think I can't find a small enough violin...

 

 

Did the players go on strike? This is all about the owners forcing the players to fix the mistakes the owners keep making.

 

The players would have absolutely gone on strike at some point this year without them getting what they want.

 

Sure. But we would have still had an offseason & then actual baseball games while the negotiations were ongoing.

 

I'd imagine the owners would have been more willing to negotiate (& maybe even make some compromises) if there was a threat of losing postseason revenue.

 

Instead the owners locked out the players & then went into radio silence for over six weeks. Almost seems like they aren't even interested in negotiating in good faith. Maybe because they know they can do nothing at all & many fans will still blame the players for the owners' inaction?

 

Pretty good strategy, if so. I guess that's one way to get billions of dollars (besides being born into it, of course).

[sveumrules]

No labor union in America is going to show up to work without a collective bargaining agreement with the employer.

 

The players showed up to work in 1994 without a CBA.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The irony is not lost on me that one of the key player reps who took part in most of these negotiations was Max Scherzer, fresh off inking a fully guaranteed 3 yr deal at the conclusion of the last CBA that is apparently horrible for players that will pay him about $43m per season to pitch in about 32 regular season games until he is 40. He will also be getting annual $15m in deferred money from his last contract through 2028, giving him about $375m in career earnings as a player. I dont think I can't find a small enough violin...

 

 

Did the players go on strike? This is all about the owners forcing the players to fix the mistakes the owners keep making.

 

They all keep making mistakes - it's not just the owners, it's not just the players. Both sides are to blame.

[Fear The Chorizo]

No labor union in America is going to show up to work without a collective bargaining agreement with the employer.

 

The players showed up to work in 1994 without a CBA.

 

Who won the world series that year?

[sveumrules]

No labor union in America is going to show up to work without a collective bargaining agreement with the employer.

 

The players showed up to work in 1994 without a CBA.

 

Who won the world series that year?

 

Nobody did. The possibility of another cancelled World Series could have theoretically been a pretty big motivating factor for both sides to make some compromises & get a deal done.

 

But the owners locked out the players then fell into silence for over six weeks.

 

What mistake did the players make in that instance?

[Jopal78]

Nobody did. The possibility of another cancelled World Series could have theoretically been a pretty big motivating factor for both sides to make some compromises & get a deal done.

 

But the owners locked out the players then fell into silence for over six weeks.

 

What mistake did the players make in that instance?

 

You're partially correct, in hindsight they could have done something during that six weeks if for no other reason than to control the narrative. However, it wasn't until this last week when it was crunch time that the both sides moved off from their initial positions.

 

It's just like settlement negotiations for a lawsuit, it is the the prospect of otherwise going to trial that motivates a resolution. In this instance the Owners wanted to wait until there was some urgency in order to get down to brass tacks (and we saw in the last week both sides dropped their most over the top demands with little fanfare). Without a doubt, the attorneys for the MLBPA knew this was the situation all along, but the MLBPA is far better at the media game than the owners, and were able to use that inactivity as a PR cudgel against the owners.

[sveumrules]

Seemingly, the narrative has developed that solely because the teams are profitable and despite already paying fantastic wages, in the spirit of fairness they somehow should take less profits and pay out even more in salary, a concept which is not supported by law or custom in America.

 

Sure there's now law requiring a company with increasing revenues to share some of those additional revenues with the employees who generated them, but it certainly seems more equitable to do so.

 

The NFL & NBA split revenue between players/ownership on a fixed percentage & their salaries have skyrocketed as a result.

 

Despite increasing revenue, league wide MLB payroll is static since 2015 & down since 2017. But yeah, the players should just accept whatever the owners propose because it's indisputable that they'll do better.

[JackNicholson1974]

Yeah!! Screw the players! Am I right fellas! If they dont like it they can go form their own league that I am sure nobody will want to watch and we can watch replacement players in major league uniforms because that's all we really want as fans!!! Go Owners!

 

Okay, all sarcasm aside. I applaud Max Scherzer. It would be easy for a player to say "I got mine" and not care about future generations or current guys making minimums. But he sees that 60% of players on 40 man rosters make less than 1 million a year. That the AVERAGE major league career is about 3 years, meaning that the AVERAGE guy who devotes his entire life, working through minors making minimum wage, would on AVERAGE expect to get 3 contracts worth about 600k a year. and he wants to help CHANGE that for those guys.

 

I suppose though, he could have said to the owners, nah, I will take 10 million a year, you guys go ahead and pass the other 34 million on to younger players and I am SURE the owners would have gotten right on that.

 

EDIT - Ok, Ok,I know, more sarcasm. Sorry. But really though. Why in this country are billionaires completely infallible to a segment of the population. Take a look at the owner, what they paid for their teams and what they are worth now. https://www.forbes.com/teams/los-angeles-dodgers/?sh=4b08e11323ae 25 of the major league teams were purchased for under 500million, and most for under 250 million and more than a couple for well under 100 million. No franchise is worth less than 1 billion and many "investments" have returned over 1,000%. Yet nobody gives the owners the grief that Scherzer gets. And none of these owners are responsible for growing the value of major league baseball. The players are solely responsible for that, yet the owners are just 30 guys making billions and we get ********* that 700 guys make less than 1 million and 500 make over a million, and when they're careers end, maybe some of them put some of that money back into their hometowns via youth sports, community investments, etc. While billionaires are spending their money trying to give themselves space vacations and become immortal.

[TURBO]

No labor union in America is going to show up to work without a collective bargaining agreement with the employer.

 

The players showed up to work in 1994 without a CBA.

 

Then went on strike, no playoffs, no world series...

[Jopal78]

Yeah!! Screw the players! Am I right fellas! If they dont like it they can go form their own league that I am sure nobody will want to watch and we can watch replacement players in major league uniforms because that's all we really want as fans!!! Go Owners!

 

Okay, all sarcasm aside. I applaud Max Scherzer. It would be easy for a player to say "I got mine" and not care about future generations or current guys making minimums. But he sees that 60% of players on 40 man rosters make less than 1 million a year. That the AVERAGE major league career is about 3 years, meaning that the AVERAGE guy who devotes his entire life, working through minors making minimum wage, would on AVERAGE expect to get 3 contracts worth about 600k a year. and he wants to help CHANGE that for those guys.

 

I suppose though, he could have said to the owners, nah, I will take 10 million a year, you guys go ahead and pass the other 34 million on to younger players and I am SURE the owners would have gotten right on that.

 

EDIT - Ok, Ok,I know, more sarcasm. Sorry. But really though. Why in this country are billionaires completely infallible to a segment of the population. Take a look at the owner, what they paid for their teams and what they are worth now. https://www.forbes.com/teams/los-angeles-dodgers/?sh=4b08e11323ae 25 of the major league teams were purchased for under 500million, and most for under 250 million and more than a couple for well under 100 million. No franchise is worth less than 1 billion and many "investments" have returned over 1,000%. Yet nobody gives the owners the grief that Scherzer gets. And none of these owners are responsible for growing the value of major league baseball. The players are solely responsible for that, yet the owners are just 30 guys making billions and we get ********* that 700 guys make less than 1 million and 500 make over a million, and when they're careers end, maybe some of them put some of that money back into their hometowns via youth sports, community investments, etc. While billionaires are spending their money trying to give themselves space vacations and become immortal.

 

That's the rub, right? It's picking sides between the extremely rich and the godawful rich.

 

Let's be honest though, the vast majority of members of the MLBPA aren't players who "just" made $600,000 per year and had a short career. But take a guy like Dan Vogelbach: 337 big league games under his belt and looking for his 5th professional organization. Yet he has already pocketed 1.6 million dollars as a signing bonus when drafted in the 2nd round. As an arbitration eligible player it means he has at least three years of service time so he's likely made at least another 1.5 million dollars in MLB pay. Plus whatever smaller, but no doubt significant, amounts from MLBPA licensing fees, sponsorships, playoff pay, etc.

 

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule (the 30th round draft pick who makes it, or the 17 year old from the DR who signed for $20,000 and became an everyday player) and maybe those are the folks they should try to help more. But even the non-descript players like Dan Vogelbach are multi-millionaires despite a short career floating around from organization to organization.

 

As a Brewers fan, I know they're in arguably the worst market and won't ever have the resources of New York and Los Angeles. Therefore, I guess I'm on the owner's side in this one, because its better for the team I follow. If I was a Dodgers fan I'd probably feel differently.

[SerenityNow]

No labor union in America is going to show up to work without a collective bargaining agreement with the employer.

 

The players showed up to work in 1994 without a CBA.

 

Yes, right up until they didn't.

 

I'm not siding with either side here either. I think what they are all doing is deplorable. I've read all the comments about the rare and unique talent these players possess and how that insulates them from reality, how owners don't care about the game, don't make money in April anyway, etc. They are all screwing with the game that we love right now, there is no shortage of blame on either side.

 

I totally get the players' view that younger, excellent players should be getting compensated earlier in their careers. Would the Christian Yelich's of the world also be willing to give up some of those huge contracts that they get once they get to free agency, and then don't come close to living up to? It cuts both ways, like it or not today's baseball economy awards longevity of excellence (and longevity is very subjective), but it does reward it handsomely.

[monty57]

I think what also gets lost here, nobody is asking the MLBPA to maintain the status quo established under the last CBA. It is indisputable if the players accepted whatever MLB's last offer was they'd be doing better than they were under the last agreement. So really, this labor fight is about--how much better the players are going to do compared to the last CBA.

 

I think this is an important point.

 

Many years ago, the players decided to unionize, and since then there has had to be a CBA in order for baseball to be played. Both sides have had to sign every CBA that has existed, so neither side can be blamed for holding the other side up to the current agreement.

 

It appears to me that the union realized over the past few seasons that the last few CBAs have favored the owners, so they are trying to make that up in the current CBA. The owners asked for some extra playoff games and ads on uniforms, and the union asked for massive changes.

 

If you're looking for "fair," then you probably think the owners are screwing everyone because they seem to be getting more of the growth in revenue than the players. If you are looking at the previous CBA as the baseline and are looking at give-and-take from the previous CBA, the union is asking for far more "take" and less "give" than the owners, so in that regard they are the ones screwing things up.

 

I get why the union wants to make massive changes to the way things have been run, because the pre-arbitration / arbitration system does hurt players. But they are the ones who signed off on that in previous CBAs, so I can understand why owners don't want to just bend over and give in to the union demands because it may be "more fair."

 

I personally think the union did tremendous disservice to the players over the past few decades, and that has led them to this point. They feel they need to ask for the moon in order to make up for past mistakes. Even with their "concessions" it would still leave the players in much better shape than they were with the previous CBA, while the owners would really get very little in return, so if they don't concede a heck of a lot more, we will probably not see baseball any time soon.

 

That doesn't leave the owners blameless. They could say "we took the union lawyers to the woodshed in previous CBAs, so let's cut them some slack" and we'd have an agreement, but I don't think that's how negotiations are normally done.

 

They'll look at the last contract as a baseline, and as I said previously, if you look at it that way the union is asking for way too much. That is why the owners wanted to use a mediator, and why the union knows that a mediator would side with the owners.

[Baldkin]

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule (the 30th round draft pick who makes it, or the 17 year old from the DR who signed for $20,000 and became an everyday player) and maybe those are the folks they should try to help more. But even the non-descript players like Dan Vogelbach are multi-millionaires despite a short career floating around from organization to organization.

 

As a Brewers fan, I know they're in arguably the worst market and won't ever have the resources of New York and Los Angeles. Therefore, I guess I'm on the owner's side in this one, because its better for the team I follow. If I was a Dodgers fan I'd probably feel differently.

 

The fact that you can quote exact player salaries and hold that against the players while not being able to say one truthful word about how much the owners make is by design. If the owners wanted to end this, they'd open their books and show the players how big a share of revenue they are already getting and leave it at that.

 

They won't however, because - I wonder why someone wouldn't be transparent in a negotiation? Any ideas?

[gebc1997]

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule (the 30th round draft pick who makes it, or the 17 year old from the DR who signed for $20,000 and became an everyday player) and maybe those are the folks they should try to help more. But even the non-descript players like Dan Vogelbach are multi-millionaires despite a short career floating around from organization to organization.

 

As a Brewers fan, I know they're in arguably the worst market and won't ever have the resources of New York and Los Angeles. Therefore, I guess I'm on the owner's side in this one, because its better for the team I follow. If I was a Dodgers fan I'd probably feel differently.

 

The fact that you can quote exact player salaries and hold that against the players while not being able to say one truthful word about how much the owners make is by design. If the owners wanted to end this, they'd open their books and show the players how big a share of revenue they are already getting and leave it at that.

 

They won't however, because - I wonder why someone wouldn't be transparent in a negotiation? Any ideas?

 

Is there a rule or law that says that the company has to reveal their finances to a union in cba negotiations. I assume not since baseball doesn't seem to. Why do some feel it's necessary for the league and clubs to have to reveal their financials.

[Jopal78]

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule (the 30th round draft pick who makes it, or the 17 year old from the DR who signed for $20,000 and became an everyday player) and maybe those are the folks they should try to help more. But even the non-descript players like Dan Vogelbach are multi-millionaires despite a short career floating around from organization to organization.

 

As a Brewers fan, I know they're in arguably the worst market and won't ever have the resources of New York and Los Angeles. Therefore, I guess I'm on the owner's side in this one, because its better for the team I follow. If I was a Dodgers fan I'd probably feel differently.

 

The fact that you can quote exact player salaries and hold that against the players while not being able to say one truthful word about how much the owners make is by design. If the owners wanted to end this, they'd open their books and show the players how big a share of revenue they are already getting and leave it at that.

 

They won't however, because - I wonder why someone wouldn't be transparent in a negotiation? Any ideas?

 

I'm not holding it against the players, the first line I wrote above indicated it's a choice between the super rich and the ungodly rich.

 

The fact of the matter is Dan Vogelbach, the textbook definition of journeyman player, after playing 337 MLB games is most likely going financially be fine for the rest of his life, and given the laws in the United States regarding the transfer of wealth, his unborn kids will likely have a financial leg up too.

 

Indeed, from a PR standpoint it's a bad time to be a billionaire in America, and for sure the MLB owners don't help themselves (or even really try) in that department. That being said; baseball teams are "for profit" corporations and with few exceptions are not publicly traded. Any sort of argument they are deceiving the players because they won't open their books is just MLBPA propaganda. Closely held corporations in America (State Farm, Deloitte, Mars, Enterprise, Subway to name a few others) aren't obligated to make their finances public, baseball teams aren't doing anything other similar multi-billion dollar companies aren't doing.

 

Moreover, if a team failed to turn a profit there would be repercussions no different than if Subway failed to turn a profit so I've never really understood why it's "bad" that the teams are profitable. I'm sure Giannis didn't pump millions of dollars into the Brewers expecting them to lose stacks of dollars and have to pump in even more cash to keep it afloat.

 

But as I've said before, being a fan of the Brewers I'm for whatever keeps that team most competitive in the coming years and it isn't what they players are selling for sure.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Sure, there are exceptions to every rule (the 30th round draft pick who makes it, or the 17 year old from the DR who signed for $20,000 and became an everyday player) and maybe those are the folks they should try to help more. But even the non-descript players like Dan Vogelbach are multi-millionaires despite a short career floating around from organization to organization.

 

As a Brewers fan, I know they're in arguably the worst market and won't ever have the resources of New York and Los Angeles. Therefore, I guess I'm on the owner's side in this one, because its better for the team I follow. If I was a Dodgers fan I'd probably feel differently.

 

The fact that you can quote exact player salaries and hold that against the players while not being able to say one truthful word about how much the owners make is by design. If the owners wanted to end this, they'd open their books and show the players how big a share of revenue they are already getting and leave it at that.

 

They won't however, because - I wonder why someone wouldn't be transparent in a negotiation? Any ideas?

 

Is there a rule or law that says that the company has to reveal their finances to a union in cba negotiations. I assume not since baseball doesn't seem to. Why do some feel it's necessary for the league and clubs to have to reveal their financials.

 

Right. There is also no law that states that a corporation is required to share profits with its employees. I'm not real sure why MLB is viewed differently than other corporate America businesses.

[JackNicholson1974]

also when the average career length is under 3 years; when players who play less than 3 years never make over 1 million dollars a year; and those players often times make peanuts for years and years in the minor leagues, I dont know if we can call the two sides "The Super Rich" and "The Ungodly Rich"

[gebc1997]

also when the average career length is under 3 years; when players who play less than 3 years never make over 1 million dollars a year; and those players often times make peanuts for years and years in the minor leagues, I dont know if we can call the two sides "The Super Rich" and "The Ungodly Rich"

 

True, however, they will have made 1-3 million in most cases over that time which they should be able to parlay into comfort.

 

They will also be at most 30yo, so they can use their connections and name locally to start small businesses or get hired as coaches or start their own baseball training clinics.

[Jopal78]

also when the average career length is under 3 years; when players who play less than 3 years never make over 1 million dollars a year; and those players often times make peanuts for years and years in the minor leagues, I dont know if we can call the two sides "The Super Rich" and "The Ungodly Rich"

 

I haven't done the research but I'd be willing to bet close to half the players are on 40 man rosters (who are the members of the MLBPA) are former first round picks (the Brewers had 11 first round picks play for them at one point last year). With slot value for the 30th pick in the First Round being worth 2.3 million dollars, I'm not so sure how many toiled in the minors for peanuts. Corey Ray and Keston Hiura are going to be rich men (4+ million dollar draft bonuses) whether their MLB careers pan out or not. Even 2nd round picks are now starting to get multi-million dollar bonuses.

 

So yes, there are 20th round picks that received no bonus and fought their way to the majors, and foreign born players who signed for peanuts, but they are the exception not the rule.

[xisxisxis]

Right. There is also no law that states that a corporation is required to share profits with its employees. I'm not real sure why MLB is viewed differently than other corporate America businesses.

Other than business that contract prison labor, what other profession requires an employee to remain a servant of the company for a minimum of 6 years at a fixed salary for a minimum of 3 of those years no matter how they perform and limited to raises based on what an arbiter says? Many companies pay their employees competitive wages to retain them based on their level of expertise. Baseball players have a unique expertise that requires unique salaries.

 

also when the average career length is under 3 years; when players who play less than 3 years never make over 1 million dollars a year; and those players often times make peanuts for years and years in the minor leagues, I dont know if we can call the two sides "The Super Rich" and "The Ungodly Rich"

While I agree with a lot of what you have posted in this thread, the last study I could find that looked at length of playing career came up with almost 7 years as the average (based on data thru 2003). That is likely higher than today as the steroid driven old -age effect is likely the main reason the number is that high and current numbers are likely lower. 2) 36% of players are out of the league before the end of their third year. That's a significantly shortened career for a third of the players who make it to MLB while ignoring the several thousand that are churned through the minors each year to fill those 780 "jobs, a majority of whom are the true serfs in baseball.

[wntrtxn21]

also when the average career length is under 3 years; when players who play less than 3 years never make over 1 million dollars a year; and those players often times make peanuts for years and years in the minor leagues, I dont know if we can call the two sides "The Super Rich" and "The Ungodly Rich"

 

In those 3 years for the avg. career, the player makes a minimum of $1.71 million dollars. When this is finally settled, it will be over $2 million dollars for those 3 years. It takes an average worker in the US about half their working lifetime to make that much. Nobody is forced into a career in baseball. Ask an intern in the medical field what they make. They work ungodly long hours and the pay is crap compared to the work. Yet they keep going for the reward when they complete the internship. Many don't make it, and move on to a different field. The exact same thing is true in baseball. They work for peanuts for the reward of getting to the big leagues. I guess a good way of saying it is: the wealthy fighting the very, very wealthy. In the mean time, the people that suffer the most are you and I, the FANS.

[xisxisxis]

I haven't done the research but I'd be willing to bet close to half the players are on 40 man rosters (who are the members of the MLBPA) are former first round picks (the Brewers had 11 first round picks play for them at one point last year). With slot value for the 30th pick in the First Round being worth 2.3 million dollars, I'm not so sure how many toiled in the minors for peanuts. Corey Ray and Keston Hiura are going to be rich men (4+ million dollar draft bonuses) whether their MLB careers pan out or not. Even 2nd round picks are now starting to get multi-million dollar bonuses.

I agree you haven't done the research and using single examples to somehow represent the average or typical career isn't actually research. At least discussing an average of the entire major league players is logs better in coming to an actual understanding of what a players lifetime earnings have been. Also, teams only get 1 first round pick and the brewer's have few of their own that actually made it to three years service time so if the Brewers have collected that many they came as free agents or through trade. It would be impossible for every team in MLB to have 20 1st round picks on their 40 man rosters which would literally require players to be in their 15th to 20th year in baseball. There just aren't that many players with more than 10 years of service let alone 15 to 20 to fill as many 40 man roster spots that you hypothesize are 1st round picks.

[xisxisxis]

Ask an intern in the medical field what they make. They work ungodly long hours and the pay is crap compared to the work. Yet they keep going for the reward when they complete the internship.

Interns are still LEARNING their profession. I spent 6 years earning crap because I wasn't qualified to hold the job I wanted at the end with the "big pay", but by the end I was qualified. Nothing similar to baseball at all.

[gebc1997]

Sports is just different, the sport as a whole is the business, and to ensure competitiveness and some semblance of fairness to teams, the players have to be locked into their original team for some period of time. As far as I interstate, Union head Marvin Miller suggested 6 years before free agency so all players weren't just flooding the market every year searching for the next new one year contract.

[Jopal78]

I agree you haven't done the research and using single examples to somehow represent the average or typical career isn't actually research. At least discussing an average of the entire major league players is logs better in coming to an actual understanding of what a players lifetime earnings have been. Also, teams only get 1 first round pick and the brewer's have few of their own that actually made it to three years service time so if the Brewers have collected that many they came as free agents or through trade. It would be impossible for every team in MLB to have 20 1st round picks on their 40 man rosters which would literally require players to be in their 15th to 20th year in baseball. There just aren't that many players with more than 10 years of service let alone 15 to 20 to fill as many 40 man roster spots that you hypothesize are 1st round picks.

 

I was very careful in stating there were 12 first round picks who saw time with the Brewers in 2021 and it's true: Hiura, Ray, Yelich, Lauer, Derek Fischer, Billy McKinney, Brad Boxberger, Wong, Bradley Jr., Jace Peterson, and Phil Bickford. That's over a quarter of the 40 man roster. I didn't say they all originated with Milwaukee. If you want to move it out to 1st and 2nd round picks (who also get handsome bonuses in today's game)add: Devin Williams, Houser, Tellez, Tyrone Taylor, Mario Feliciano, Jordan Zimmerman, Josh Lindblom.

 

The Dodgers had former first rounders: Beuhler, Kershaw, Bauer, Scherzer, Will Smith, Trea Turner, Corey Seager, AJ Pollock, Gavin Lux, David Price, Corey Knebel plus the aforementioned Phil Bickford and Billy McKinney.

 

The point is, the players who got little to no bonus and toiled away for years making it to the major leagues aren't the majority here. Its players who are starting from go, with their pockets stuffed with dollars.