When Does The Lockout End? Answer: March 10th, 2022

[TURBO]

The median income in the country is irrelevant. Baseball is its own economy with an Antitrust Exemption & everything.

 

Disagree. The average working guy disagrees as well. It is extremely relevant to people making 60K how much players make, and turn down. Again, using Soto as an example. Dude turns down 350 million and expects regular working guys to feel bad for him? I'm laughing out loud!

 

If its hard to relate to the "plight" of the players, it should be exponentially harder to relate to the "plight" of the owners since they are exponentially richer than the players.

 

Opinion, not fact.

 

Do players even have a "plight" if they turn down 350 million?

[owbc]

Just because you believe the players should "Play for free" doesn't mean the players should have to. This is their career.

 

I get that baseball players at the MLB level have a very rare and valuable skill set. But look at the median family income in this country ($79,900). Then look at the minimum salary of a first year MLB player ($570,500). No one is playing for free. There are very, very few people who can logically relate to the "plight" the players are feeling at the moment.

 

I think that some owners love baseball. I wish more did. But some of them simply love making money. In the end, that's how they earned enough of it to even purchase an MLB franchise. It is what it is.

 

Agreed.

 

I honestly don't mind how rich the owners are. They have a high risk / high reward business. They have to pump loads of money into that businees. It doesn't bother me that they make gobs of money as long as they put some back into their teams to stay competitive. I don't like the fact that we villainize rich business owners in this country. If they made their money legit, more power to them. (this train of thought is coming from a teacher, who is married to another teacher) I'm all for capitalism, it's the foundation of our nation. Where would we be without it?

 

That aside, when guys like Soto turn down 350 million, it doesn't sit well with ordinary average guys like me. That kind of money sets up generations of his family, not just him. The money the players make resonates with me, not the owners. Players, even those on the low end of the pay scale are set up for life if they manage it correctly. Let's say you play 5 years at 600 k, that is 3 million. Regular working stiffs don't make that in a lifetime.

 

It's just impossible for me to take the players side when they can make 600K to 30 million per season. Oh woe is them...

 

I don't even mind that they make that kind of money, they have a special skill set, and deserve it, but crying to the general public falls on deaf ears imho.

 

If being born into wealth and privilege while taking advantage of a system that funnels as much money as possible to the top is "legit", then yes, I guess MLB owners make their money in a legitimate way.

 

Juan Soto is unarguably one of the 5 or 10 best baseball players in the world right now. Could any of the MLB owners be counted amongst the 5 or 10 best business people in the world? What would happen if all 30 of the MLB owners sold their teams tomorrow and were replace with 30 different business people?

 

Turbo, there's nothing special about the overwhelming majority of billionaire business people. There are tens of thousands of people in this world who are smart and talented and hard working enough to be in their shoes. The majority of their wealth has been gained by the exploitation of average workers.

 

I think most people following MLB would agree that there is a large group of average minor and major leaguers who, unlike Soto, do not have the leverage to get paid more. But focusing on that is not the point here. The point is that owners and players as a whole are fighting over the split of a pool of money. The numbers don't matter, it's all about the percentage split. And if you favor the owners, you're doing so at the expense of the players. And I don't pay $50 to go to an MLB game and see the owners play baseball.

[TURBO]

I don't favor one or the other, I just can't sympathize with people who get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to play a game. I don't think the owners are any more guilty than the players when it comes down to ironing out their differences.

 

I think they are both greedy, and don't give a rip about us, the fans.

[Baldkin]

I don't favor one or the other, I just can't sympathize with people who get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to play a game. I don't think the owners are any more guilty than the players when it comes down to ironing out their differences.

 

I think they are both greedy, and don't give a rip about us, the fans.

 

"But what about ME?"

 

Why should your wants and desires matter at all to these two groups of people? Why should they matter more than mine? Why are you saying "fans" as though we're all one group of people who all want the same thing?

[sveumrules]

The median income in the country is irrelevant. Baseball is its own economy with an Antitrust Exemption & everything.

 

Disagree. The average working guy disagrees as well. It is extremely relevant to people making 60K how much players make, and turn down. Again, using Soto as an example. Dude turns down 350 million and expects regular working guys to feel bad for him? I'm laughing out loud!

 

If its hard to relate to the "plight" of the players, it should be exponentially harder to relate to the "plight" of the owners since they are exponentially richer than the players.

 

Opinion, not fact.

 

Do players even have a "plight" if they turn down 350 million?

 

When did Soto ever say "feel bad for me?"

 

It is a fact that the owners are much richer than the players...

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/mlb-owners-net-worth.html

[Roderick]

That aside, when guys like Soto turn down 350 million, it doesn't sit well with ordinary average guys like me.

 

So if an owner turns down $1.5B for his team because it is worth more, should be an apples to apples comparison to that, right? If Soto turned down $350M, because he thinks he can make $450M, why should that be any different? You just don't hear about the owners turning down offers for their team because they know they are printing money and aren't going to sell.

 

Edit: That doesn't mean I am on the players side, just think Soto turning down money is not really a fair comparison to be used "against the players".

[GreatNWwi]

 

If being born into wealth and privilege while taking advantage of a system that funnels as much money as possible to the top is "legit", then yes, I guess MLB owners make their money in a legitimate way.

 

 

Since you seem comfortable with this statement you should also be comfortable with a similar statement about the players. That since they are born into talent and privilege while taking advantage of a system that allows them to succeed and props them on a pedestal then yes, I guess professional athletes make their money in a legitimate way.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The median income in the country is irrelevant. Baseball is its own economy with an Antitrust Exemption & everything.

 

Disagree. The average working guy disagrees as well. It is extremely relevant to people making 60K how much players make, and turn down. Again, using Soto as an example. Dude turns down 350 million and expects regular working guys to feel bad for him? I'm laughing out loud!

 

If its hard to relate to the "plight" of the players, it should be exponentially harder to relate to the "plight" of the owners since they are exponentially richer than the players.

 

Opinion, not fact.

 

Do players even have a "plight" if they turn down 350 million?

 

When did Soto ever say "feel bad for me?"

 

It is a fact that the owners are much richer than the players...

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/mlb-owners-net-worth.html

 

And deservedly so to be honest....there are far fewer businessmen and women on this planet financially capable to buy a professional sports franchise, despite their profession's playing field being infinitely larger than that of the amount of players actually trying to play a game for a living that amounts to generational wealth. Being a pro sports majority owner is more rare than being a HOF player in any sport.

 

And being born into a family who owns a franchise is alot like being born Ken Griffey JR on the baseball field or a Manning kid on the football field.

 

To me it boils down to a fight amongst two groups who both try and use the general public's sentiment as leverage to get a better financial deal for themselves - and both sides could honestly care less about the general public....therefore, I don't care about them and feel neither side deserves to "win".

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

And deservedly so to be honest....there are far fewer businessmen and women on this planet financially capable to buy a professional sports franchise, despite their profession's playing field being infinitely larger than that of the amount of players actually trying to play a game for a living that amounts to generational wealth. Being a pro sports majority owner is more rare than being a HOF player in any sport.

 

And being born into a family who owns a franchise is alot like being born Ken Griffey JR on the baseball field or a Manning kid on the football field.

 

To me it boils down to a fight amongst two groups who both try and use the general public's sentiment as leverage to get a better financial deal for themselves - and both sides could honestly care less about the general public....therefore, I don't care about them and feel neither side deserves to "win".

 

I don't care so much about the names on the backs of the jerseys. I don't care whether Mark Attanasio makes a profit on the team. I care about the name on the front of the jersey, because I'll still be cheering for this team long after those names on the back have moved on, and probably long after Mark A either sells the team or hands it down to his kids. The Brewers are a well run organization right now, and whatever happens with this labor fight, I'm going to be upset if changes to the CBA are made that make it more difficult for the team to remain competitive in the future. That's the fans' skin in this game.

[Fear The Chorizo]

And deservedly so to be honest....there are far fewer businessmen and women on this planet financially capable to buy a professional sports franchise, despite their profession's playing field being infinitely larger than that of the amount of players actually trying to play a game for a living that amounts to generational wealth. Being a pro sports majority owner is more rare than being a HOF player in any sport.

 

And being born into a family who owns a franchise is alot like being born Ken Griffey JR on the baseball field or a Manning kid on the football field.

 

To me it boils down to a fight amongst two groups who both try and use the general public's sentiment as leverage to get a better financial deal for themselves - and both sides could honestly care less about the general public....therefore, I don't care about them and feel neither side deserves to "win".

 

I don't care so much about the names on the backs of the jerseys. I don't care whether Mark Attanasio makes a profit on the team. I care about the name on the front of the jersey, because I'll still be cheering for this team long after those names on the back have moved on, and probably long after Mark A either sells the team or hands it down to his kids. The Brewers are a well run organization right now, and whatever happens with this labor fight, I'm going to be upset if changes to the CBA are made that make it more difficult for the team to remain competitive in the future. That's the fans' skin in this game.

 

 

Totally get that and totally agree....but the fans don't have a seat at the table in this dispute, which is unfortunate since without fans the owners would have to find something else to invest their billions into and the players would have to find a different line of work that most likely doesn't pay as well as being able to throw a baseball really hard or hit one very far.

[jerichoholicninja]

None of this arguing over how to split billions of dollars between themselves will do anything to change the product on the field. The game is boring. 3TO baseball has driven more fans away than anything else and will continue to do so. I don't really have any solutions for that but both sides are offering even less. They can do whatever they want with the money, I could care less, but please do something to make the game more entertaining.

[jjgott]

 

 

I honestly don't mind how rich the owners are. They have a high risk / high reward business.

 

Wut? It’s about as low risk a business as there is in this country. They literally have an exemption to antitrust laws!

Edited February 25, 2022 by jjgott

[danzig6767]

None of this arguing over how to split billions of dollars between themselves will do anything to change the product on the field. The game is boring. 3TO baseball has driven more fans away than anything else and will continue to do so. I don't really have any solutions for that but both sides are offering even less. They can do whatever they want with the money, I could care less, but please do something to make the game more entertaining.

For whatever reason, baseball is to afraid to change rules in hopes of making the game more entertaining to fans.

 

The NFL and NBA regularly tweak their rules in ways they feel will make their product better, to the point that when these changes happen, often fans just shrug and let things play out to see if the result is a better product.

 

With baseball though, often there is freak out over changes compared to other sports, for tradition reasons i guess. Oh my lord, we are going to start extra innings with a runner on second base or say shifting might be limited. If the NFL people were in charge of baseball, i highly doubt that they'd be so afraid to try and shake things up in hopes of a more entertaining game.

[Dean Machine]

Overwhelmingly, the players love baseball, do you think you can say the same for the owners? If you answer that "Yes" ask yourself how Rob Manfred is still commissioner.

 

Eh, I don't think that's as true and you want it to be. I remember sitting near the SkySox bullpen a few years ago and overheard [sarcasm]Brewer's great[/sarcasm] Mike Zagurski say "I really don't like baseball but I like what it pays me." To varying degrees, I'm sure this is the feeling of the vast majority of players.

 

Ryan Braun told me he wasn't a baseball fan at spring training one time. It made me sad but but it also made me realize for the first time at age 30whatever that many if not most of the players don't love the game anywhere near as me. It's an even bigger problem in basketball where simply being tall can be enough to push people to play.

[JosephC]

This thread, combined with the stadium district thread, just makes me shake my head in disbelief. It blows my mind that so many people seem to have an issue with owners potentially exploiting players, yet have no issue with MLB's strategy of exploiting taxpayers by getting them to carry the huge burden of paying for and then maintaining stadiums (most of which are now built for baseball only, meaning they sit there and do nothing 280 days of the year).

 

The JS recently looked at the population of the five-county area and calculated that the average person paid $342 dollars in taxes for Miller Park. I would agree that the number is questionable, as money comes from people outside of those five counties...but on the other hand, not all the people living in those counties have been spending adults. But the average of $342 could be a fair estimate. So who is the victim here...the MLB owner who easily makes 10's of millions per year...the star player who makes 10's of millions per year...the scrub AAAA player that only gets in a half year of service time and still rakes in 280k plus for that year...or the little old lady in Kenosha who could care less about the Brewers but still gets swindled out of $15 every year so the likes of Burch Smith and his 280k earnings is not exploited in his unique labor market (remarkably, Burch Smith is up to 4+ years of service time).

 

Good thing for Attanasio, Scherzer and Jace Peterson that I am not the supreme dictator, because MLB would be paying for all their own stadium costs overnight and all of these guys would be taking home half of what they take home now (and, by my calculations, every one of them would still be very, very wealthy).

 

And all those poor families of four in Milwaukee would now be able to keep their 15 bucks in their own pocket. Sure it might only be 15 bucks, but they need the 10 bucks more than MLB does.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

This thread, combined with the stadium district thread, just makes me shake my head in disbelief. It blows my mind that so many people seem to have an issue with owners potentially exploiting players, yet have no issue with MLB's strategy of exploiting taxpayers by getting them to carry the huge burden of paying for and then maintaining stadiums (most of which are now built for baseball only, meaning they sit there and do nothing 280 days of the year).

 

 

It isn't that at all. The players have some power to maybe have some recourse. Realistically, taxpayers do not. They will find someone else to build their stadium. If not for the stadium, the government will find some other means of idiotically spending money. I may as well get a sports team out of it. It becomes about pragmatism, not this fantasy that billionaires will start building their own stadiums.

[Underachiever]

Overwhelmingly, the players love baseball, do you think you can say the same for the owners? If you answer that "Yes" ask yourself how Rob Manfred is still commissioner.

 

Eh, I don't think that's as true and you want it to be. I remember sitting near the SkySox bullpen a few years ago and overheard [sarcasm]Brewer's great[/sarcasm] Mike Zagurski say "I really don't like baseball but I like what it pays me." To varying degrees, I'm sure this is the feeling of the vast majority of players.

Well, if you heard one guy say it, it must be true. Extending an overheard comment to the "vast majority" of players is a ridiculous reach, even in "varying degrees". Guy could have been having a bad day and feeling sarcastic. Or a really good day and feeling sarcastic.

[Underachiever]

Overwhelmingly, the players love baseball, do you think you can say the same for the owners? If you answer that "Yes" ask yourself how Rob Manfred is still commissioner.

 

Eh, I don't think that's as true and you want it to be. I remember sitting near the SkySox bullpen a few years ago and overheard [sarcasm]Brewer's great[/sarcasm] Mike Zagurski say "I really don't like baseball but I like what it pays me." To varying degrees, I'm sure this is the feeling of the vast majority of players.

 

Ryan Braun told me he wasn't a baseball fan at spring training one time. It made me sad but but it also made me realize for the first time at age 30whatever that many if not most of the players don't love the game anywhere near as me. It's an even bigger problem in basketball where simply being tall can be enough to push people to play.

The guys who spend most of their life working toward an uncertain payoff don't love the game as much as you? I don't care if Ryan Braun doesn't watch a lot of baseball or have a couple of fantasy teams. You love baseball in a different way because it is a pastime for you, not a living. I used to work with performers, and I felt like I knew more about their movies/shows than they did. One guy, who starred in a favorite sitcom, flat out told me, "I did over 100 of those episodes. I don't remember any of them that well." Others I spoke to had a tough time watching other shows and movies because they were so damn busy (and self-absorbed). On a Saturday where I might go to a movie, they were reading a treatment or a script for their next project. It never occurred to me that they didn't love what they were doing. They just had way more of a stake in it than I did. That alone can make you enjoy something less.

[TURBO]

Overwhelmingly, the players love baseball, do you think you can say the same for the owners? If you answer that "Yes" ask yourself how Rob Manfred is still commissioner.

 

Eh, I don't think that's as true and you want it to be. I remember sitting near the SkySox bullpen a few years ago and overheard [sarcasm]Brewer's great[/sarcasm] Mike Zagurski say "I really don't like baseball but I like what it pays me." To varying degrees, I'm sure this is the feeling of the vast majority of players.

 

Ryan Braun told me he wasn't a baseball fan at spring training one time. It made me sad but but it also made me realize for the first time at age 30whatever that many if not most of the players don't love the game anywhere near as me. It's an even bigger problem in basketball where simply being tall can be enough to push people to play.

 

That is sad to me. What provoked him to make such a comment. Sounds like a douchy thing to say to a fan...

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I've heard similar stories about Braun saying those things and I am sure many players feel the same, but I think you guys are making a bit much of it. I'm sure there are things a lot of them would rather be doing than traveling 9 months a year and living out of hotels but when someone is paying you $15 million it is hard to voluntarily walk away from it. I'm sure if they could make that money playing baseball at the local park, they would. You're watching the games from your house and consuming an entertainment product without any of the grind they go through. Even at a crazy rate of compensation the routine has to get old and let's remember that most of them have been playing this sport since they were 6.

 

There is no need to throw a pity party for them but they are missing out on a lot of life experiences by playing ball for a living.

[Patrick425]

I've heard similar stories about Braun saying those things and I am sure many players feel the same, but I think you guys are making a bit much of it. I'm sure there are things a lot of them would rather be doing than traveling 9 months a year and living out of hotels but when someone is paying you $15 million it is hard to voluntarily walk away from it. I'm sure if they could make that money playing baseball at the local park, they would. You're watching the games from your house and consuming an entertainment product without any of the grind they go through. Even at a crazy rate of compensation the routine has to get old and let's remember that most of them have been playing this sport since they were 6.

 

There is no need to throw a pity party for them but they are missing out on a lot of life experiences by playing ball for a living.

 

Yes, no need to throw a pity party, but I have zero sympathy for this kind of whining from pro athletes. Everyone make choices in life. There are a lot of people missing out on "life experiences" doing much harder work, getting paid a lot less, and getting a lot less attention for the work they do. Not sure how you can give a full effort if you really feel this way and there is absolutely no excuse for expressing those feelings to paying fans.

 

On a different note - the players want to penalize small market teams that finish in the lottery in consecutive seasons, but they are also opposed to revenue sharing and want to reduce the luxury tax. *Sigh* Seems like most of the player proposals are things that would hurt small market teams like the Brewers.

[adambr2]

Traveling everywhere, having half the year off of work, partying in a big city every night, hooking up with beautiful women, playing a game for a living and being paid gobs of money for it sounds amazing to me. Unfortunately, I have no athletic talent.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I've heard similar stories about Braun saying those things and I am sure many players feel the same, but I think you guys are making a bit much of it. I'm sure there are things a lot of them would rather be doing than traveling 9 months a year and living out of hotels but when someone is paying you $15 million it is hard to voluntarily walk away from it. I'm sure if they could make that money playing baseball at the local park, they would. You're watching the games from your house and consuming an entertainment product without any of the grind they go through. Even at a crazy rate of compensation the routine has to get old and let's remember that most of them have been playing this sport since they were 6.

 

There is no need to throw a pity party for them but they are missing out on a lot of life experiences by playing ball for a living.

 

Yes, no need to throw a pity party, but I have zero sympathy for this kind of whining from pro athletes. Everyone make choices in life. There are a lot of people missing out on "life experiences" doing much harder work, getting paid a lot less, and getting a lot less attention for the work they do. Not sure how you can give a full effort if you really feel this way and there is absolutely no excuse for expressing those feelings to paying fans.

 

On a different note - the players want to penalize small market teams that finish in the lottery in consecutive seasons, but they are also opposed to revenue sharing and want to reduce the luxury tax. *Sigh* Seems like most of the player proposals are things that would hurt small market teams like the Brewers.

 

What whining? A fan said something about playing baseball for a living and he responded "You probably like baseball more than I do."

 

Bolded part - I mean, just not true. There is all kinds of work out there that nobody loves but the person is still really good at it. I never even loved my career tbh, it has always been about money otherwise I would have tried to write screenplays. I purposely did something more lucrative that I was really good at; never in my life would I say I loved it, however I do love money.

 

I imagine that pro baseball players, some love it, some feel more like that. For a few million bucks a year I think most will exert maximum effort without "love." These guys are not working at Taco Bell. There is somebody trying to take their job 24/7. It is not really a career in which you can get away with not trying.

 

Real point is that humans always adapt to their surroundings whether they are really poor or really wealthy. After a few years of exotic travel, stadiums and hotels, an abundance of cash, I am sure a lot of players reach a point where not playing anymore baseball sounds kinda nice.

[BillScottCanRake]

Professional baseball players aren't mythical beings, they are people. People are imperfect creatures whom have things at which they excel and things they don't, likes and dislikes, life priorities, etc, which are unique to them. The fact baseball players can hit, catch, and throw a ball better than most doesn't change that. And like every adult I've ever met who is working for a living, no matter how much they generally like their job, people are not immune to disliking their job from time to time (or all the time), or having a bad day (or week, or month). They aren't immune from having their job performance be impacted by 'life' events, and they certainly aren't immune from giving less than maximum effort from time to time. It doesn't matter the job, it doesn't matter how much you make, it doesn't matter how much better off or worse off you are than others, and it doesn't matter if people are watching or not, and it doesn't even matter how good you are at your job, sometimes having to work just plain sucks for reasons. And sometimes people are really good at performing tasks at a high level, and even though they don't really like it they do it anyways. And if you are good enough at it, you don't need to give maximum effort all the time. People will think you are, and they will even sometimes be amazed at how you do it, but they'll never know you coasted your way to a job well done. This is a people-thing, and baseball players are just people.

[TURBO]

 

Yes, no need to throw a pity party, but I have zero sympathy for this kind of whining from pro athletes. Everyone make choices in life. There are a lot of people missing out on "life experiences" doing much harder work, getting paid a lot less, and getting a lot less attention for the work they do. Not sure how you can give a full effort if you really feel this way and there is absolutely no excuse for expressing those feelings to paying fans.

 

On a different note - the players want to penalize small market teams that finish in the lottery in consecutive seasons, but they are also opposed to revenue sharing and want to reduce the luxury tax. *Sigh* Seems like most of the player proposals are things that would hurt small market teams like the Brewers.

 

YES...

 

Traveling everywhere, having half the year off of work, partying in a big city every night, hooking up with beautiful women, playing a game for a living and being paid gobs of money for it sounds amazing to me.

 

...and YES!