Manny Pina Signs With Braves

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I'm hoping that they can find a decent #2 defensive catcher, and possibly one more bat-first guy who can catch and perhaps play a little 1B or the OF as well.

[bork]

I'm happy for him, but he will be missed. I think due to his rough first half, people don't realize that he had a much better second half than Narvaez. 892 OPS vs 592.

[Outlander]

Maybe they should have offered him that 6 year $9 million dollar deal.

[Eye Black]

Piña seemed like the perfect compliment to Narvaez, but I also understand not wanting to commit $8 million to him at this point of his career. With Omar only under contract one more season I am curious to see if the Brewers trade for a young-ish catcher this offseason. I don’t think Feliciano is near ready defensively to adequately fill the backup catcher role. Catcher is such a position of scarcity that their best bet might be just plugging the hole by bringing back someone like Maile. Of course a lot changes with the defensive demands of the catching position if MLB does indeed go to an automated strike zone in the near future.

[Devinep]

I don’t get why the Braves did this with Contreras already in the bigs and Shea Langeliers at AAA.

 

I don’t see feliciano being in the bigs right away so they’ll have to find a Robinson Chirinos-type placeholder for a platoon

 

Langeliers only has 5 games at AAA, so he won't be ready to start the year in MLB. Contreras didn't really do anything to earn the starting gig in his 2021 look, so Manny gives them a proven commodity to bridge the gap.

 

Free agent catchers are pretty ugly. Pipe dream would probably be to swing a deal for Garver from the Twins (150 wRC+ vs LHP over 260 PAs since 2019).

 

Another trade option could be Pedro Severino from the Orioles (110 wRC+ vs LHP over 359 PAs since 2019) if the Brewers think they can fix his framing (MLB worst -21.9 runs since 2019) like they did with Omar.

 

Darnaud is Atlanta’s starter anyway so I was just pondering if he was worth the 4 million for a slight upgrade but potential roadblock at backup catcher in Atlanta.

 

I like the idea of Garver. MN has catching depth and Garver Narvaez could split C/DH with Narvaez to keep fresh

Edited November 16, 2021 by Devinep

[OldSchoolSnapper]

He was a great Brewer. They can't really pay him $8 million though I'd rather do that than see JBJ play another game.

[folly412]

Nice deal for Manny. Would have loved him back on a one year deal, but not worth matching this. Let's see who they bring in for #2, whether it's bringing Maile back or getting another veteran in. Still bullish that Feliciano or Fry can contribute at some point next year, but still no way you build the roster by counting on that.

[sveumrules]

I don’t get why the Braves did this with Contreras already in the bigs and Shea Langeliers at AAA.

 

I don’t see feliciano being in the bigs right away so they’ll have to find a Robinson Chirinos-type placeholder for a platoon

 

Langeliers only has 5 games at AAA, so he won't be ready to start the year in MLB. Contreras didn't really do anything to earn the starting gig in his 2021 look, so Manny gives them a proven commodity to bridge the gap.

 

Free agent catchers are pretty ugly. Pipe dream would probably be to swing a deal for Garver from the Twins (150 wRC+ vs LHP over 260 PAs since 2019).

 

Another trade option could be Pedro Severino from the Orioles (110 wRC+ vs LHP over 359 PAs since 2019) if the Brewers think they can fix his framing (MLB worst -21.9 runs since 2019) like they did with Omar.

 

Darnaud is Atlanta’s starter anyway so I was just pondering if he was worth the 4 million for a slight upgrade but potential roadblock at backup catcher in Atlanta.

 

I like the idea of Garver. MN has catching depth and Garver Narvaez could split C/DH to keep fresh

 

Ah, totally missed that d'Arnaud signed an extension in August, so thought he was a FA. ATL must really not have liked what they saw from Contreras then.

[Roderick]

There goes the World Series window.

 

It's been nice knowing you guys.

 

Don't give up hope. He could KRod/Jeffress back with the team again.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Pedro Severino looks like he'd be an obvious Pina replacement. He hits lefties well, and is only 28 years old.

[Outlander]

Pedro Severino looks like he'd be an obvious Pina replacement. He hits lefties well, and is only 28 years old.

That really does seem like a good fit with Omar as the starter hitting against righties. Gives Feliciano another year in the minors and he can be the guy they option up and down when need be.

[Jopal78]

Pedro Severino looks like he'd be an obvious Pina replacement. He hits lefties well, and is only 28 years old.

 

The chemistry in the clubhouse may be hard to replace, but there is a plethora of defensive minded catchers the Brewers can sign to replace Pina. The fact that he went to Atlanta so quickly leads me to believe he was told the Brewers were going to look elsewhere.

 

Yan Gomes still makes a lot of sense for the Brewers at the right price. Solid defensive catcher, can hit a little, also has played 1B once in awhile and DH'd.

 

They could sign Martin Maldonado for another go around. Roberto Perez won a couple of Gold Gloves and caught the excellent Cleveland staff is also a free agent. As far as trades, both the catchers in Texas (Heim and Trevino) were good at pitch framing and below average hitters. Both are pre-arbitration eligible making a good fit for Milwaukee, and a rebuilding club like Texas should be willing to part with one to get someone who will be able to help down the road.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Pedro Severino looks like he'd be an obvious Pina replacement. He hits lefties well, and is only 28 years old.

 

The chemistry in the clubhouse may be hard to replace, but there is a plethora of defensive minded catchers the Brewers can sign to replace Pina. The fact that he went to Atlanta so quickly leads me to believe he was told the Brewers were going to look elsewhere.

 

Or he learned from Martin Maldonado that when a team offers a back up catcher more money for 2 years than you earned in your career you say yes and don't look back, otherwise you end up playing for the veteran's minimum.

 

Martin should have sued his agent for malpractice.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Yan Gomes could be a nice free agent option to replace Pina IMO.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Pedro Severino looks like he'd be an obvious Pina replacement. He hits lefties well, and is only 28 years old.

 

 

They could sign Martin Maldonado for another go around. Roberto Perez won a couple of Gold Gloves and caught the excellent Cleveland staff is also a free agent. As far as trades, both the catchers in Texas (Heim and Trevino) were good at pitch framing and below average hitters. Both are pre-arbitration eligible making a good fit for Milwaukee, and a rebuilding club like Texas should be willing to part with one to get someone who will be able to help down the road.

 

Maldonado is signed until 2023 with the Astros.

[Thurston Fluff]

He was a very sound backup but one who you'd like to replace if he was the starter. While it would have been nice as a fan to see him back, paying that much for him would make it harder to improve the overall team.

[SRB]

Great deal for Manny and perfect situation for him as the Braves are likely going to be even better in 2022 with Acuna back and given how much money they have to spend this offseason. I guess we are going to need to sign a free agent to back up Narvaez?

 

I believe this makes Brent Suter the new longest tenure Brewer.

 

I'll go with Adrian Houser as longest tenured on the 40-man roster, my standard.

 

Dang, that trade seems like it was yesterday

[Outlander]

I'll go with Tyrone Taylor since he has been with the organization for a decade.

[adambr2]

Why is the 9M/1 WAR constantly used to justify contracts, but when it comes to a guy like Pina who has been a mainstay here and is almost certain to be worth more than 1 WAR over the next 2 years, we say, "Nah, can't spend 8M to keep him." ?

[brewcrewdue80]

Why is the 9M/1 WAR constantly used to justify contracts, but when it comes to a guy like Pina who has been a mainstay here and is almost certain to be worth more than 1 WAR over the next 2 years, we say, "Nah, can't spend 8M to keep him." ?

 

Maybe its a fact the market is saturated with -1 to 1WAR type catchers. A bit different if he was a 3+ history with WAR seasons and separated himself from the pack of catching options. Catchers play less, provide less offensively, just a group you pick up a body and they will do enough to make you not feel like they cost you the season, unlike a couple Brewer hitters.

[Oxy]

Why is the 9M/1 WAR constantly used to justify contracts, but when it comes to a guy like Pina who has been a mainstay here and is almost certain to be worth more than 1 WAR over the next 2 years, we say, "Nah, can't spend 8M to keep him." ?

 

Maybe its a fact the market is saturated with -1 to 1WAR type catchers. A bit different if he was a 3+ history with WAR seasons and separated himself from the pack of catching options. Catchers play less, provide less offensively, just a group you pick up a body and they will do enough to make you not feel like they cost you the season, unlike a couple Brewer hitters.

 

Until you get a bad defensive C. That can cost a team multiple games in the most frustrating ways (close game allowing SBs and passed balls for scores).

[Simba2020]

Why is the 9M/1 WAR constantly used to justify contracts, but when it comes to a guy like Pina who has been a mainstay here and is almost certain to be worth more than 1 WAR over the next 2 years, we say, "Nah, can't spend 8M to keep him." ?

Not sure if anyone hates the $9M/1 WAR more than me. I just think it's flat out dumb. Hitters typically sign for $4 to $5 million/historical WAR. For older players, that number falls well below $4 million. I'd say something like $3 to $3.5/WAR for Pina would have been the expectation and is basically what he signed for.

[sveumrules]

Why is the 9M/1 WAR constantly used to justify contracts, but when it comes to a guy like Pina who has been a mainstay here and is almost certain to be worth more than 1 WAR over the next 2 years, we say, "Nah, can't spend 8M to keep him." ?

Not sure if anyone hates the $9M/1 WAR more than me. I just think it's flat out dumb. Hitters typically sign for $4 to $5 million/historical WAR. For older players, that number falls well below $4 million. I'd say something like $3 to $3.5/WAR for Pina would have been the expectation and is basically what he signed for.

 

Teams aren't paying for historical performance though, that already happened, they are paying for future performance...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-cost-of-a-win-in-free-agency-in-2020/

 

Of course 9 million = 1 WAR is overly simplistic, it is intended as a starting point, not an ending point. For instance, the cost of a win in free agency seems to maybe be trending towards non-linearity recently...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/is-the-cost-of-a-win-in-free-agency-still-linear/

 

This article is a few years old now, but historically $/WAR values have also varied pretty significantly from position to position, which is another factor to consider...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-evolution-of-positional-differences-in-free-agent-costs/

 

I can't recall seeing anything recently that had $/WAR in the 4-5 million range, but I'd be interested in the methodology for sure if you have a link.

[owbc]

I think of losing Piña as similar to losing Hernán Pérez. It felt like the loss of a long-tenured, well-liked role player at the time, but we basically forgot about the guy after he was gone. Obviously Piña is more valuable than Pérez, but he's also turning 35 next year and, similar to Pérez, likely has his best years behind him.

 

I also hope he returns as a coach in the future.

[Simba2020]

Why is the 9M/1 WAR constantly used to justify contracts, but when it comes to a guy like Pina who has been a mainstay here and is almost certain to be worth more than 1 WAR over the next 2 years, we say, "Nah, can't spend 8M to keep him." ?

Not sure if anyone hates the $9M/1 WAR more than me. I just think it's flat out dumb. Hitters typically sign for $4 to $5 million/historical WAR. For older players, that number falls well below $4 million. I'd say something like $3 to $3.5/WAR for Pina would have been the expectation and is basically what he signed for.

 

Teams aren't paying for historical performance though, that already happened, they are paying for future performance...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-cost-of-a-win-in-free-agency-in-2020/

 

Of course 9 million = 1 WAR is overly simplistic, it is intended as a starting point, not an ending point. For instance, the cost of a win in free agency seems to maybe be trending towards non-linearity recently...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/is-the-cost-of-a-win-in-free-agency-still-linear/

 

This article is a few years old now, but historically $/WAR values have also varied pretty significantly from position to position, which is another factor to consider...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-evolution-of-positional-differences-in-free-agent-costs/

 

I can't recall seeing anything recently that had $/WAR in the 4-5 million range, but I'd be interested in the methodology for sure if you have a link.

I've read all I need to about $9 million/WAR. It's not going to change my mind that it's a dumb way to look at things.

 

I have my own database of free agent signings for nearly 15 years, and there has been very little change the last several years. I obviously know what a guy is going to get is based on position, age, type of player (premium, solid, mediocre) etc. But on a very simplified look at things, most guys sign for $4 to $5 million per historical WAR. If you are trying to figure out what a guy is going to sign for, that's the number to use not $8 to $10 million.

 

I've also made this point previously. A player puts up WAR of 2, 2, 2 and 2. No ceiling, high floor. What's he going to get in free agency? Something right around $10 million AAV. The next season, he's on pace to put up another 2 WAR. Suddenly people want to say he's an $18 million player with $8 million in surplus value. To me he's the $10 million player he always was with little surplus value.

 

Another reason I don't like it is this. Say you have a guy who was basically a 5 WAR player. He ends up signing for 5 years and $135 million ($27 million AAV). He then puts up a couple of roughly 3 WAR years. So to some, they'll still justify his contract using a $9 million figure. I would say since you could go out and get a likely replacement at his new level of production for much less, he's not worth it. Further, let's say after year 2, the team wants to trade him. Do we really think they could trade his 3 years and $81 million left on his deal without kicking in cash or prospects to move him? I don't think he could be moved without one or the other (or both). So if I'm right, why does it make sense to use the $9 million WAR figure to justify a player's contract?