Packer 2021 Team Discussion 2.0

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The authentic jerseys are actually pretty expensive to produce. Lots of intricate stitching and what not, and there is obviously only one manufacturer so that will always drive the cost up. But there is a reason pro sports teams are not too keen on players tossing jerseys into the stands and stuff, have been to known to have really strict equipment managers, and charge players that lose them.

 

Because they can sell the jersey for thousands.

 

No. It's because if they don't charge them for the jersey ($500) it's an expense counted against the salary cap. I don't think the 3rd string LG's jersey is worth thousands in re-sell and that's who makes up most of the roster.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/

 

https://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=honors_mathematics -

 

"Studies have shown that, while franchises can give the economy a boost in the short

term, there are little to no long-term positive effects."

 

https://qz.com/1934567/how-sports-actually-affect-the-economy/ - paywalled but probably the best one

 

https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/207443

 

"The professors based their report on new data as well as previously published research in which they analyzed economic indicators from 37 major metropolitan areas with major-league baseball, football and basketball teams.

 

"The net economic impact of professional sports in Washington, D.C., and the 36 other cities that hosted professional sports teams over nearly 30 years, was a reduction in real per capita income over the entire metropolitan area," Humphreys and Coates noted in the report."

 

Arenas, which are better for cities because they can be used all year for a million things, are still just kind of meh. One economist claims if all sports teams left CHI the impact would be less than 1%. And claims that a baseball team has about the impact of one department store.

 

This should not really be all that surprising. The volume just isn't there with a sports team vs. a Target that employs a bunch of people year-round, is constantly open and reaches many more people.

 

I love sports. Sports are cool. Sports definitely bring me to Milwaukee. But I'd find something else to do. It just doesn't make sense as something that would "stimulate" anything.

[homer]

I think there is value to a city/region beyond dollars spent by fans in having a pro sports team. If you want to argue that's not worth the public cost of the stadiums feel free.

[Sixtofan]

The only reason I ever go to Milwaukee and spend any money is because of the sports team. Yes, I am a sample size of one but the Brewers presence causes me to make trips to Milwaukee and spend money that would not be spent anywhere near the metropolitan area if they did not exist. Same for the Packers and Green Bay.

[PeaveyFury]

I think there is value to a city/region beyond dollars spent by fans in having a pro sports team. If you want to argue that's not worth the public cost of the stadiums feel free.

 

Yes, it's worth noting that most of the studies linked to above are within the context of 'does the sports team justify a comical level of spending on a new stadium funded by taxpayers'. I think that if you're in a situation where the stadium is either privately funded or already in existence, the needle moves significantly the other way.

 

I do think it's also disingenuous to lump a 'bring fans in from all over' market like Milwaukee/Green Bay in with DC, for example. Milwaukee sports brings in money from all over the state. Is it a reallocation of funds from those fans' spending on other things? Perhaps. But, they're doing their spending in Milwaukee rather than Stevens Point or Oshkosh, which is obviously a benefit to Milwaukee as a city.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

There are intangibles that add value to the community, for sure, but that is pretty much never how these projects are sold to the public. They market them as economic masterpieces and they are lying when they do it. I have been in favor of every proposed new stadium or renovation in WI during my lifetime because I AM A FAN, but I still cringe when hearing the sales pitch and the number of people who argue those talking points with friends and peers. One of the problems is that sports fans have a drastically overstated perception of how many people actually care about sports. It's a lot of people, but there are more who would just be "Oh, they're leaving, cool." However we happen to be fans of the one sports franchise in the country where the city may disappear from existence if that team left.

 

>But, they're doing their spending in Milwaukee rather than Stevens Point or Oshkosh, which is obviously a benefit to Milwaukee as a city.

 

I don't know how this could ever be quantified, but if it somehow could, my guess is that it would be stunning to about 99% of people how insignificant of a sum that would be. Even someone like the Brewers who play a ton of games, you're only getting significant traction with these folks on a limited number of weekend dates. And even on those dates, it is a small % of the overall attendance.

[PeaveyFury]

 

>But, they're doing their spending in Milwaukee rather than Stevens Point or Oshkosh, which is obviously a benefit to Milwaukee as a city.

 

I don't know how this could ever be quantified, but if it somehow could, my guess is that it would be stunning to about 99% of people how insignificant of a sum that would be. Even someone like the Brewers who play a ton of games, you're only getting significant traction with these folks on a limited number of weekend dates. And even on those dates, it is a small % of the overall attendance.

 

My guess would be opposite to your guess. I'd bet that on most weekend Brewer games especially, a minimum of 40% of the attendees are from outside the metro area. Again, purely my guess. And every dollar they spend at the stadium or night they stay in an MKE hotel is a dollar that the city doesn't have without the Brewers.

 

That also doesn't cover the impact of, say, rural Wisconsin bars' revenue during seasons. Yeah, Wisconsin is a drinking culture, but I can't imagine that you have as many rears in bar stools on a Sunday afternoon if the Brewer game isn't on. Heck, I'd be super curious to know how many STL fans stopped caring about football when the Rams left, and the resulting revenue loss from football Sundays as fans stopped caring about the league, beyond just 'game' revenue.

[CheezWizHed]

A couple points to consider per the above:

1) When the Braves left Milwaukee, many baseball fans turned to the Cubs (a dark day in WI history no doubt). So either they were watching the Cubs in the bars, or going to Wrigley to watch a game live.

2) When COVID hit and the games had not attendance, it was pretty obvious the impact to the downtown area around the Buck's stadium or Lambeau... I don't recall how it impacted around Miller/AMFAM.

3) I would think the impact is greater to an area like the Bucks/Packers where the stadium is more integrated into the city. Miller/AMFAM feels like it is stuck out in a more "remote" area without a ton around it. Yes, people do frequent bars and ride busses, but that seems like a lower percentage than those that just drive in and park.

[PeaveyFury]

Miller/AMFAM feels like it is stuck out in a more "remote" area without a ton around it. Yes, people do frequent bars and ride busses, but that seems like a lower percentage than those that just drive in and park.

 

I actually think that this makes a STRONGER argument about the importance of the Brewers' stadium revenue, actually. Many of the studies cited above's theses revolve around the idea that if people weren't spending their money at the stadium, they'd be spending their money at the bar up the street. In the case of Miller Park, you've got people coming in from Madison/Oshkosh/where ever that not only wouldn't be spending their money at the bar up the street in Milwaukee, but they're specifically doing their spending because of the amenities AT the park and every dollar that comes from that is hypothetically a dollar that doesn't get spent in the city of Milwaukee otherwise.

 

I do think the other item that isn't properly accounted for in these calculations are special 'bring people to the city' larger events. IE, Milwaukee doesn't host the 2002 All-star game without Miller Park, nor do the Packers end up hosting the draft without all the spending they've done surrounding the stadium. Those extraordinary events do undeniably bring money into the market that simply wouldn't be here otherwise, and that does have value to the city.

[MrTPlush]

The biggest loss is the player (and high ranking executive) salaries in the state. That alone is probably over $10mil a year and if I recall this is specifically a way the state agreed to pay for part of the Bucks stadium. Then you have other obvious tax revenue that would go poof without the team in the city (ticket sales, food sales, and merchandise). Now, yes, people will spend their money other ways, but a lot likely leaves the state or at least the Milwaukee area. Of course I am not sure how property taxes usually work for these stadium and the surrounding parking lots....if they pay any kind of property tax on $500mil+ buildings that certainly is another consideration.

 

I am guessing the state and local government could comfortably throw $20mil+ yearly (depending on the area) and come out at least even in the grand scheme. I mean you basically get the prestige of having a pro team and putting your city on the map. The teams make it sounds lucrative and residents act like it is highway robbery. To me, it seems like a wash financially. People get mad the teams get all the money, but when you provide $10mil in tax revenue from people that would 100% not be in the state without you...you have value.

 

The Packers would be an interesting one if they ever got into such a problem. It is quite literally the only reason anyone knows where Green Bay is and it certainly attracts a ton of tourism.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Miller/AMFAM feels like it is stuck out in a more "remote" area without a ton around it. Yes, people do frequent bars and ride busses, but that seems like a lower percentage than those that just drive in and park.

 

I actually think that this makes a STRONGER argument about the importance of the Brewers' stadium revenue, actually. Many of the studies cited above's theses revolve around the idea that if people weren't spending their money at the stadium, they'd be spending their money at the bar up the street. In the case of Miller Park, you've got people coming in from Madison/Oshkosh/where ever that not only wouldn't be spending their money at the bar up the street in Milwaukee, but they're specifically doing their spending because of the amenities AT the park and every dollar that comes from that is hypothetically a dollar that doesn't get spent in the city of Milwaukee otherwise.

 

I do think the other item that isn't properly accounted for in these calculations are special 'bring people to the city' larger events. IE, Milwaukee doesn't host the 2002 All-star game without Miller Park, nor do the Packers end up hosting the draft without all the spending they've done surrounding the stadium. Those extraordinary events do undeniably bring money into the market that simply wouldn't be here otherwise, and that does have value to the city.

 

All-Star game or Draft are literally a single weekend though. It can only be so drastic. A new Target at Bayshore open 364 days a year dwarfs that kind of impact. This is why I think people get so thrown off by this. Everyone remembers a crazy night on Water Street that takes place every 12 years during a championship. It is much more memorable than the parking lot that's packed at some store every night after 5pm.

[Underachiever]

 

>But, they're doing their spending in Milwaukee rather than Stevens Point or Oshkosh, which is obviously a benefit to Milwaukee as a city.

 

I don't know how this could ever be quantified, but if it somehow could, my guess is that it would be stunning to about 99% of people how insignificant of a sum that would be. Even someone like the Brewers who play a ton of games, you're only getting significant traction with these folks on a limited number of weekend dates. And even on those dates, it is a small % of the overall attendance.

 

My guess would be opposite to your guess. I'd bet that on most weekend Brewer games especially, a minimum of 40% of the attendees are from outside the metro area. Again, purely my guess. And every dollar they spend at the stadium or night they stay in an MKE hotel is a dollar that the city doesn't have without the Brewers.

 

That also doesn't cover the impact of, say, rural Wisconsin bars' revenue during seasons. Yeah, Wisconsin is a drinking culture, but I can't imagine that you have as many rears in bar stools on a Sunday afternoon if the Brewer game isn't on. Heck, I'd be super curious to know how many STL fans stopped caring about football when the Rams left, and the resulting revenue loss from football Sundays as fans stopped caring about the league, beyond just 'game' revenue.

 

I know this is a Packer thread, but it seems to have turned toward the Brewers, and they are first in my heart.

 

I'm not sure you have to guess on impact. There are a lot of articles out there. I have read that St. Louis spending on the Cardinals increased when the Rams left, that St. Louis still owes 100 million in bond money on the empty stadium, and economic impact has been met with a shrug. Seattle has shown positive economic impact from the Sonics leaving, though a lot of that is from increased use of the arena, which doesn't really translate exactly to football. I think the point made earlier that most don't care about sports is spot on. We on Brewerfan are huge fans, and live in a sports bubble that most don't inhabit. The fact is that most jobs provided by sports teams are low wage and less than full-time. The spending goes mostly to the teams. One article spoke of the economic impact being confined to "walled cities". The Brewers own estimates show that 6% of visitors from Outside of the Milwaukee area stay overnight, and without spending more time on the numbers than I have right now, it is unclear whether or not that includes staying in hotels or at private homes, so I don't know. I live near Madison and would never spend the night, not that my individual case matters.

 

Here is a study, which interestingly enough, was published in February of 2020, just a month before...you know. It is written to be pro-Brewer, and I wish that they broke it out more than: city of Milwaukee, Milwaukee County, and rest of Wisconsin. I think they should have looked at the five-county numbers as well. My guess is that they did, and keeping the metro area with the "rest of Wisconsin" made their case look better somehow. Just this weekend, I was thinking how lucky I am to live in a state with 5 million people that has three major league franchises. Maybe that's why I'm a big sports fan, maybe not. Had I grown up in Iowa? Who knows?

 

https://homecrewadvantage.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/The-Economic-Impact-of-the-Milwaukee-Brewers-and-Miller-Park-1.pdf

[PeaveyFury]

All-Star game or Draft are literally a single weekend though. It can only be so drastic. A new Target at Bayshore open 364 days a year dwarfs that kind of impact. This is why I think people get so thrown off by this. Everyone remembers a crazy night on Water Street that takes place every 12 years during a championship. It is much more memorable than the parking lot that's packed at some store every night after 5pm.

 

 

But that single weekend can often bring in tens of millions of dollars of extra revenue, which can largely offset a large portion of cost of a stadium/arena. Also, those people shopping at the new Target in Bayshore are likely repurposing funds they were spending at the Target in Shorewood hills. Or the Wal-mart that was further away. And none of those shoppers are spending money in hotels. They're simply moving money from one retailer to another. The actual difference you see is that you added jobs, not revenue coming in from elsewhere. And, as others noted, none of their employees are paying $2 million in Wisconsin state tax like Yelich is.

 

In short, it is estimated that Cleveland's metro area received $80 million in direct visitor spending as a result of hosting the NFL draft, and an estimated $8-10m in state & local tax revenue. How many pairs of socks do people from Madison have to buy at that Target in Bayshore to get to that revenue level?

[PeaveyFury]

And sorry, I don't entirely know why this got off the rails a bit, and clearly I've contributed to such. If the conversation on this item should continue, we should split it off and revert to the Packers.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Also, those people shopping at the new Target in Bayshore are likely repurposing funds they were spending at the Target in Shorewood hills. Or the Wal-mart that was further away.

 

This isn't actually true and I work for a national retailer. If that were the case, then there is no incentive for the company to put a location there. This IS why a location like Hartford, home to about 16k people, has no Home Depot or Menards. It would just cannibalize the stores in West Bend or Menomonee Falls and harm the bottom line because of the added operating expense. They all have formulas where the distance between locations correlates to a larger profit margin.

 

Moreover, believe it or not, something like a Target or a Starbucks is actually a consideration for a prospective homebuyer. The presence of either is more typically in an area people want to live; a sports team doesn't have that kind of appeal to the same number of people.

[nodakfan17]

Moreover, believe it or not, something like a Target or a Starbucks is actually a consideration for a prospective homebuyer. The presence of either is more typically in an area people want to live; a sports team doesn't have that kind of appeal to the same number of people.

I’ve been browsing Zillow for years and dreaming about buying land in the Northwoods or Door County for a future vacation property. We’re starting to get serious about buying the land (but are years away from building).

 

Anyway, my wife is adamant about Door County because there is a Target in Sturgeon Bay. Rhinelander and Antigo each have a Walmart, but no Target. I’m going to wind up paying twice as much per acre because my wife refuses to shop at Walmart. I don’t think she’s alone. Many people think like that or their wouldn’t be the detailed analysis that Snapper mentioned.

 

Also, Go Pack!

[CheezWizHed]

Moreover, believe it or not, something like a Target or a Starbucks is actually a consideration for a prospective homebuyer. The presence of either is more typically in an area people want to live; a sports team doesn't have that kind of appeal to the same number of people.

 

As a hiring manager, I've had discussions with people about the entertainment opportunities (e.g. fine arts, concerts, sports) to convince them to move into a city, but never once have I mentioned that there was a Target or Starbucks nearby. Both Target and Starbucks represent more commodity purchases - I'll need to buy clothes, food, and gifts in my local area no matter if there is a Target there or not.

 

Sport events are more a luxury item. If there isn't a sporting event that I'm interested in watching, you don't spend the money there anymore. I had the Timberwolves call me to convince me to buy season tickets because I purchased tickets to the Bucks game (1 game per season). I told him point blank I could care less about the Timberwolves and I only wanted to see the Bucks. Sure, I spend those entertainment dollars elsewhere, but it isn't downtown Minneapolis.

[wallus]

Which city is talked about more nationally, Milwaukee or Albuquerque? Both are pretty close in terms of population.

 

Sports raises a cities profile and can be beneficial.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

As a hiring manager, I've had discussions with people about the entertainment opportunities (e.g. fine arts, concerts, sports) to convince them to move into a city, but never once have I mentioned that there was a Target or Starbucks nearby.

 

Because they most likely already live near one and you'd sound like an incredible dork selling this to a prospective employee especially one under 30. However, I encourage you to look into the correlation between those two companies and median home values and what happens to those values after those places move in to town. The items you are suggesting draw people to a city, drastically fall down their list as they leave their 20s and enter their 30s and 40s where most spending takes place.

 

And I can assure you that in the case of Target, you're dead wrong. There are lots and lots of people who bypass their closer department store to get to the nearest Target.

 

Sport events are more a luxury item. If there isn't a sporting event that I'm interested in watching, you don't spend the money there anymore. I had the Timberwolves call me to convince me to buy season tickets because I purchased tickets to the Bucks game (1 game per season). I told him point blank I could care less about the Timberwolves and I only wanted to see the Bucks. Sure, I spend those entertainment dollars elsewhere, but it isn't downtown Minneapolis.

 

This is exactly the reasoning that economists use to point how economically useless it is.

 

"“One is just dollars and cents. Does it add to the city’s revenues? Does it increase the bottom line or improve the bottom line of cities’ businesses? Does it add jobs? Does it add incomes? And the consensus is that any impact of a sports franchise tends to be very, very small in terms of dollars and cents.”

 

That’s because attending sports events is just one of multiple ways people spend recreation dollars. If they don’t have games to attend, they’ll simply do something else, said Greg LeRoy, the executive director of Washington, D.C.-based Good Jobs First. “If people go to the soccer games more, they’ll be going to the movie theater less. They’ll be going to the skating rink less. They’ll be going to restaurants less, or other things that they would be inclined to do with their leisure time.”

 

There is no evidence that building stadiums results in any significant income or employment or taxable sales growth in cities that invest in public sports facilities, Victor A. Matheson, a professor of economics at The College of The Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass. and a former Major League Soccer and USL referee, said in a phone interview.

 

“… You’re not talking about something that’s going to be used very much,” Matheson said. “You know, you’re talking about something that’ll be empty 11 out of every 12 days during the course of a year. So, that’s not something that’s likely to really be a local neighborhood driver because, again, who’s going to start a sports bar that you can use 25 games a year.”

Edited December 6, 2021 by OldSchoolSnapper

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Which city is talked about more nationally, Milwaukee or Albuquerque? Both are pretty close in terms of population.

 

Sports raises a cities profile and can be beneficial.

 

I feel both are pretty much not talked about nationally lol. But beneficial is pretty vague. Can they increase quality of life? Yes for a relatively small number of sports fans. They don't do a whole lot outside of that.

[wallus]

I was in Orlando recently for a convention and got talking to a local guy. He said he visited Milwaukee to watch the Bucks/Magic play and did some sightseeing and loved it. He said he will be visiting again this summer, even though Bucks are not in town when he goes. Now that is definitely anecdotal but it is clear there are benefits to having professional sports.

[nodakfan17]

Love to the COVID list:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/packers-place-qb-jordan-love-213152156.html

[PeaveyFury]

Love to the COVID list:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/packers-place-qb-jordan-love-213152156.html

 

.....and a good segue to move the thread back on topic, since the first suggestion to do so was largely overlooked.

[GAME05]

There's a lot of recruiting by a city when it comes to a big company considering moving a lot of jobs there. Local taxes are obviously big, but they also want recreation opportunities in order to recruit employees to fill those positions, and sports teams add to that.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Love to the COVID list:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/packers-place-qb-jordan-love-213152156.html

 

I'll laugh if they bring Bortles back again. The guy could make like $160k this year off standing around for 4 days.