Brewers fire Andy Haines

[brewmann04]

I agree Stearns needs to add quality Hitters but they also need to do their homework to find the right Hitting Coach.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

I expect big years from Yelich and Hiura now this Haines character isn't holding them back.

[bigred]

Here's the thing...I've never been a Haines fan by any stretch...however, firing the cook when the real problem are the ingredients, is short sighted. You can't expect a gourmet cook to make a masterpiece with crap ingredients. It's an impossible task. Upgrade the ingredients and watch the masterpiece unfold, regardless of who the cook is.

 

 

 

I disagree. The point is, a truly good "cook" SHOULD be able to "masterpiece" with crap "ingredients". That's how "cooks" are judged as being good or not. The Brewers "cook" actually had some great "ingredients" at his disposal, and still couldn't make a "masterpiece".

[Jopal78]

While Manager and pitching coach have been more stable, the hitting coach with the Brewers typically lasts about three years before being given their walking papers:

 

Butch Wynegar 2003-2006

Jim Skaalen 2007-2008

Dale Sveum 2009 to 2011

Johnny Narron 2012 to 2014

Darnell Coles 2015 to 2018

Andy Haines 2019 to 2021

 

Look at the end of their tenure, they almost all came right on the heels of a big let down (Wynegar was fired for lack of improvement, Sveum left to be the Cubs manager).

 

2008- lost 1-3 to the Phillies in the NLDS, moved on from Skaalen

2014- were in first 133 days, collapsed late and missed post-season, moved on from Narron

2018- lost 3-4 to the Dodgers in NLCS, moved on from Coles

2021-lost 1-3 to Braves in NLDS, moved on from Haines.

 

They may as well acknowledge the hitting coach is the scape goat, and eliminate the role, opting instead for a hitting mechanics instructor and creating a strategy coach.

[BuckyBrewer61]

While Manager and pitching coach have been more stable, the hitting coach with the Brewers typically lasts about three years before being given their walking papers:

 

Butch Wynegar 2003-2006

Jim Skaalen 2007-2008

Dale Sveum 2009 to 2011

Johnny Narron 2012 to 2014

Darnell Coles 2015 to 2018

Andy Haines 2019 to 2021

 

Look at the end of their tenure, they almost all came right on the heels of a big let down (Wynegar was fired for lack of improvement, Sveum left to be the Cubs manager).

 

2008- lost 1-3 to the Phillies in the NLDS, moved on from Skaalen

2014- were in first 133 days, collapsed late and missed post-season, moved on from Narron

2018- lost 3-4 to the Dodgers in NLCS, moved on from Coles

2021-lost 1-3 to Braves in NLDS, moved on from Haines.

 

They may as well acknowledge the hitting coach is the scape goat, and eliminate the role, opting instead for a hitting mechanics instructor and creating a strategy coach.

 

What is the difference between a hitting coach and a "hitting mechanics instructor"?

[sveumrules]

Great news. I have a feeling or hope the search is more extensive this time around. 2 bad hitting coaches in a row to learn to stay away from. It was clearly the number 1 move you had to do to the staff. 2 years. Multiple players in each year having their career worst seasons. Looking forward to a big hire.

 

Who are some names you would consider as a "big hire"? Asking out of curiosity...not very familiar with what the potential candidate pool even looks like

 

Giants have had the biggest recent organizational turnaround in terms of hitting performance & it resulted from hiring some guys nobody outside of baseball inner circles knew anything about.

 

They've got Donnie Ecker (35, topped out in Frontier League), Justin Viele (30, topped out in Sally League) and Dustin Lind (33, topped out at U Montana Billings) listed under various iterations of hitting coach.

[folly412]

In addition to player-specific disappointments, I questioned the effectiveness of Haines' scouting/approach aspect of the hitting coach role. How many times was the offense completely inept in the first few innings, often not getting a hit until the 5th or later? There were a couple games I recalled Schroeder saying "you need to attack this guy early in the count", and it was clear our hitting approach was to be very patient (or vice versa).

[yourout]

Here's the thing...I've never been a Haines fan by any stretch...however, firing the cook when the real problem are the ingredients, is short sighted. You can't expect a gourmet cook to make a masterpiece with crap ingredients. It's an impossible task. Upgrade the ingredients and watch the masterpiece unfold, regardless of who the cook is.

 

 

 

I disagree. The point is, a truly good "cook" SHOULD be able to "masterpiece" with crap "ingredients". That's how "cooks" are judged as being good or not. The Brewers "cook" actually had some great "ingredients" at his disposal, and still couldn't make a "masterpiece".

 

I would have been a happy with a good goulash. Instead all we got was lutefisk.

[Samurai Bucky]

What is the difference between a hitting coach and a "hitting mechanics instructor"?

Perhaps the same as a pitcher and an "out getter?"

 

I think this is the same type of shift in paradigm that has been permeating the game. The Cubs hiring Justin Stone from Elite Baseball is an example of this. My son is part of a Milwaukee-based academy that is using more Hittrax and Blast technology to help with his swing in areas such as time to the ball, swing speed, etc. It has certainly helped. It also helps that the owner is a baseball nut!!!

 

Using technology like this also takes more of the guesswork out of "what makes a good swing." While I don't think there is a hard and fast "perfect swing," I think there are some fundamental mechanics that can be measured using technology. You still need somebody who can translate the data into training a player to implement the swing. I have seen it work. That said, if you don't have the horses, you can train a ball player to have a perfect swing, and it will never really work due to the lack of talent.

 

Look at statistics -- there are new statistics that didn't exist before -- ERA+, SIERA, FIP, xFIP, WTFIP (just kidding). It only makes sense that math and technology can be used to increase a players skill level.

[tmwiese55]

Right, but I think the point would be that all hitting coaches (or he and his team/assistants) should be doing all of that now along with the old school elements. Not that it's either or, all that stuff should be commonplace now.

 

Top of my head, I think this was a beef NYM had when they fired their hitting coach midseason though, not enough on the analytics/tech side. Don't hold me to that after 5 months. Being that Haines was hired by Stearns/Counsel who completely embrace all this stuff, I'd be surprised if Haines wasn't on board with the modern things.

[jerichoholicninja]

I highly recommend everyone read the MVP Machine to see what exactly hitting/pitching coaches do these days. Their main job is to present information from the front office (scouting reports, analytics, mechanical changes) to the players in a way that players can digest and understand it.

[Joseph Zarr]

This was a clear result of the season ending the way it did. I honestly have no clue how much actual blame goes Haines way BUT the Brewers had to do something. I'm curious as to what approach they take. Love the SF Giants share. Thanks.

[brewcrewdue80]

Great news. I have a feeling or hope the search is more extensive this time around. 2 bad hitting coaches in a row to learn to stay away from. It was clearly the number 1 move you had to do to the staff. 2 years. Multiple players in each year having their career worst seasons. Looking forward to a big hire.

 

Who are some names you would consider as a "big hire"? Asking out of curiosity...not very familiar with what the potential candidate pool even looks like

 

I don't have one. That's not my job. Haines seemed like a quick hire who had experience with the Cubs. My peeve against him has been game approaches. It never felt like the Offense had a leg up on that day's opposing Starter. It just felt so much like sit at the plate hold out til strike one blew by down the middle of the plate. And add the amount of strike 3s that were looking? Think the guy had poor pitch sequencing approach that left hitters guessing wrong. It was overdue. Nobody feared the lineup in 2021. Narvaez was awful in 2020, may have fixed it on his own in offseason and Haines in season magic derailed it again. Garcia the same only he never listened to what Haines tried exploring him to do. Yelich, Cain, Hiura, JBJ the list is long of failed seasons towards guys meant to be a big contribution to said offense.

I just hope there's a hire where a solid amount of time passes. That we see a reason to understand the hire. Coles and Haines both at time of hire already felt questionable.

[balsamlaker]

It will be interesting to see who the hire(s) will be, as some teams are hiring multiple "hitting coaches". The average tenure of a MLB hitting coach is very short. With that said, the bar seems to be set fairly low as far as making Yelich an above average hitter and getting the likes of Hiura, Bradley, and such to hit at all.

[brewmann04]

Take your time look around form the best guy and then watch what additions that David adds.

[monty57]

Great news. I have a feeling or hope the search is more extensive this time around. 2 bad hitting coaches in a row to learn to stay away from. It was clearly the number 1 move you had to do to the staff. 2 years. Multiple players in each year having their career worst seasons. Looking forward to a big hire.

 

Who are some names you would consider as a "big hire"? Asking out of curiosity...not very familiar with what the potential candidate pool even looks like

 

I don't have one. That's not my job. Haines seemed like a quick hire who had experience with the Cubs. My peeve against him has been game approaches. It never felt like the Offense had a leg up on that day's opposing Starter. It just felt so much like sit at the plate hold out til strike one blew by down the middle of the plate. And add the amount of strike 3s that were looking? Think the guy had poor pitch sequencing approach that left hitters guessing wrong. It was overdue. Nobody feared the lineup in 2021. Narvaez was awful in 2020, may have fixed it on his own in offseason and Haines in season magic derailed it again. Garcia the same only he never listened to what Haines tried exploring him to do. Yelich, Cain, Hiura, JBJ the list is long of failed seasons towards guys meant to be a big contribution to said offense.

I just hope there's a hire where a solid amount of time passes. That we see a reason to understand the hire. Coles and Haines both at time of hire already felt questionable.

 

I understand why Haines was let go, but what you're saying about Narvaez and Garcia is just false. It was reported during the offseason that those two specifically were visited by Haines to work on their swings and approach, and both of them gave Haines credit for their improvement.

 

The Brewers had an average offense that went ice cold at the exact wrong time. Haines was the obvious choice to get the axe. I hope the next guy in line is able to communicate well with the players and have a positive impact on the team.

[balsamlaker]

If he gets the credit for the 2021 seasons of Garcia and Narvaez, does he also get the blame for their 2020 season? Both of them basically returned to the hitters they were 2-3 years prior to arriving in Milwaukee.

[Austin Tatious]

I hope we can reel in one of the coaches from SF and bring some of that strategy here.

[patrickgpe]

I hope we can reel in one of the coaches from SF and bring some of that strategy here.

https://reviewingthebrew.com/2021/10/21/brewers-4-external-hitting-coach-candidates-target/

 

Lind seems like a very intriguing hire. Fatse too from the Red Sox.

[CheezWizHed]

Here's the thing...I've never been a Haines fan by any stretch...however, firing the cook when the real problem are the ingredients, is short sighted. You can't expect a gourmet cook to make a masterpiece with crap ingredients. It's an impossible task. Upgrade the ingredients and watch the masterpiece unfold, regardless of who the cook is.

 

Oh man, this take is too much

 

[sarcasm]Torts, I'm disappointed... I fully expected you to say, "This takes the cake!"[/sarcasm] Let the groaning commence...

[sveumrules]

Red Sox hitting coach Tim Hyers has declined the club's offer to return in favor of exploring opportunities with other teams per MLBTR.

 

Boston scored the most runs & had the 4th highest wRC+ in baseball during Hyers four year tenure...

 

2021: 829 runs (5th) 107 wRC+ (6th)

2020: 292 runs (11th) 106 wRC+ (11th)

2019: 901 runs (4th) 106 wRC+ (6th)

2018: 876 runs (1st) 111 wRC+ (4th)

Total: 2,898 runs (1st) 108 wRC+ (4th)

 

MLBTR also saying that Donnie Ecker (one of the Giants three hitting coaches) will be the Rangers bench coach for 2022.

[owbc]

Going to be interesting to see the Giants' strategy propagate around baseball. It also appears that batters are getting better at putting balls in play against the shift. And strikeouts were finally down in 2021 -- maybe some of that can be attributed to the sticky stuff crackdown, but at least anecdotally it appears that defensive hitting with 2 strikes is seeing a resurgence. Interesting stuff for sure.

[BrewFan130]

I’m curious if any team has experimented with multiple hitting coaches within a team. I could it benefitting the players and team. There are so many different swing styles in baseball and I’d have to imagine that some hitters don’t mesh well with some hitting coaches styles and having a 2nd coach could be highly beneficial.

Within the Brewers organization there have been players that have progressed under Haines and others who haven’t. I suspect the big issue that may have led to Andy Haines being fired is Christian Yelich’s struggles over the past 2 seasons. Yelich being the Brewers premier player and future of the organization that Haines may have ultimately been held responsible for not getting Yelich back to 2018, 2019 numbers.

Maybe I’m out of my depth here on hitting coaches, but just a thought.

[BrewFan130]

I was concerned about the Brewers hiring Andy Haines in the beginning. After all, they hired a hitting coach who had just been fired from a team(Cubs) that previously had pretty good performing batters before he left his mark on the team.

[sveumrules]

I believe most teams have multiple hitting coaches at this point. The Giants were mentioned earlier in the thread. The Brewers listed Haines (hitting coach) & Jacob Cruz (assistant hitting coach) on their 2021 roster.

 

Haines was also only the assistant hitting coach on the 2018 Cubs. He never held the lead position (that was Chili Davis) & their performance stayed about as same as possible from the year before to the year with to the year after Haines, so his stint as assistant hitting coach didn't really have any noticeable effect on the end results...

 

Cubs 2017 wRC+: 101 (year before Haines)

Cubs 2018 wRC+: 100 (year with Haines)

Cubs 2019 wRC+: 100 (year after Haines)