Wisconsin Basketball Thread 2021-2022

[OldSchoolSnapper]

You're a coach and willing to slap somebody on television. Imagine what he does when nobody is watching.

[LouisEly]

I agree with all of this. Gard was pissed that Howard passed him by, felt disrespected or whatever, so he physically detained him while making it clear he was really pissed (he looked angrier than Howard at the outset). None of it happens if he just lets it go, or at a mininum de-escalates instead of triggering/escalating it. At a minimum he should apologize and realize he could have done better, anything more I don't know. Howard's problems of course are way way more severe.

This is not true. Howard didn't even get in line to shake hands initially - he waited, and the announcers saw that and commented on that. Then when Howard approached Gard, and Howard dropped his mask and said, "I'll remember that ****[/url]", and you can see on the video Howard dropping his mask as he approaches Gard.

 

That's when Gard reacted and stopped him, according to Gard to try to explain why he did what he did. Gard didn't stop Howard because he passed him or disrespected him - Howard started it by swearing at Gard first.

 

Proof:

[worm81]

Laughable to say that was Gard's fault. It's not like he touched Howard and he immediately responded. He backed away and had plenty of time to make a decision before he took the swing.

[MrTPlush]

That being said Gard grabbing him wasn’t really in the right either and certainly caused things to spill over. I’d expect Wisco to proactively suspend Gard/Neath as it looks better that way versus the NCAA doing it. Howard’s certainly has got some issues though.

I understand this POV but I also guarantee you that Tom Izzo, Bo Ryan, and many a coach would have done or have done the exact same thing. I've seen coaches not happy with each other stop each other in line to talk before - that's not unprecedented. Grabbing someone by the shirt, much less taking a swing, is not something I've ever seen.

 

What Bobby Knight would have done I would have paid money to see...

 

Oh sure, I am not shocked Gard did what he did…I’m guessing almost anyone isn’t letting Howard say that and walk off like some kind of coward.

 

But thus, it’s still not ‘right’.

[homer]

zero chance Gard gets suspended. if Howard doesn't throw a punch are we looking at that "grab" as anything at all? therefore why should he be punished for it?

[homer]

I was at the game. best part was the "NIT" chant the students gave the Michigan players as they left the floor after the scrum.

[homer]

also, Johnny Davis is awesome.

[PinaMadness]

Timeouts being called at the end of games has been a sore spot for Howard since 1993.

[LouisEly]

I was at the game. best part was the "NIT" chant the students gave the Michigan players as they left the floor after the scrum.

Their remaining schedule is red-hot Rutgers, Illinois, Michigan State, Iowa, and Ohio State (and they had a game against Purdue postponed), all of whom have a better or equal conference record. NIT might be a best-case scenario, especially when Diabate, Williams, Houstan, and maybe others get suspended for multiple games.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I agree with all of this. Gard was pissed that Howard passed him by, felt disrespected or whatever, so he physically detained him while making it clear he was really pissed (he looked angrier than Howard at the outset). None of it happens if he just lets it go, or at a mininum de-escalates instead of triggering/escalating it. At a minimum he should apologize and realize he could have done better, anything more I don't know. Howard's problems of course are way way more severe.

This is not true. Howard didn't even get in line to shake hands initially - he waited, and the announcers saw that and commented on that. Then when Howard approached Gard, and Howard dropped his mask and said, "I'll remember that ****[/url]", and you can see on the video Howard dropping his mask as he approaches Gard.

 

That's when Gard reacted and stopped him, according to Gard to try to explain why he did what he did. Gard didn't stop Howard because he passed him or disrespected him - Howard started it by swearing at Gard first.

 

Proof:

 

Davison demanding to sing Varsity to the students nearest the Michigan bench is my favorite part of that clip.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's just really weird to me the amount of people that think Gard "started" this by touching Howard on the elbow. Like he was defending himself from a man (in a handshake line!!!!) that's a foot shorter than himself who literally put a hand on his arm, and using that as justification for throwing a sally slap.

 

If you're of the mindset that you have to throw hands to assert your self every time someone "puts hands on you", you're probably walking around with a little too much anger.

[sdcheezhd]

I agree with all of this. Gard was pissed that Howard passed him by, felt disrespected or whatever, so he physically detained him while making it clear he was really pissed (he looked angrier than Howard at the outset). None of it happens if he just lets it go, or at a mininum de-escalates instead of triggering/escalating it. At a minimum he should apologize and realize he could have done better, anything more I don't know. Howard's problems of course are way way more severe.

This is not true. Howard didn't even get in line to shake hands initially - he waited, and the announcers saw that and commented on that. Then when Howard approached Gard, and Howard dropped his mask and said, "I'll remember that ****[/url]", and you can see on the video Howard dropping his mask as he approaches Gard.

 

That's when Gard reacted and stopped him, according to Gard to try to explain why he did what he did. Gard didn't stop Howard because he passed him or disrespected him - Howard started it by swearing at Gard first.

 

Proof:

 

Thanks, I hadn't seen that when I posted earlier. Gard's behavior looks even worse to me than what was on TV; he reacted to the comment by getting in front of Howard, physically detaining him, and shouting angrily at him (can't tell if that's the f word there or not). Whether the initial trigger was a comment or just walking by (which would have non-verbally communicated the same thing), Gard significantly escalated things instead of de-escalating them. He stays in Howard's face even after Howard says get your hands off me until he's pulled away.

 

We'll see how this sorts out but I'll think a lot less of him if he doesn't acknowledge that he could have handled this better. And he's got a history; it previously took a Come to Jesus intervention by his players before he admitted he had some issues as a coach. You just won the game, why do you have to be so angry? I have this problem too so I kind of know from it.

 

BTW no one is suggesting that Howard didn't behave a lot worse, that's the 97/3.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I agree with all of this. Gard was pissed that Howard passed him by, felt disrespected or whatever, so he physically detained him while making it clear he was really pissed (he looked angrier than Howard at the outset). None of it happens if he just lets it go, or at a mininum de-escalates instead of triggering/escalating it. At a minimum he should apologize and realize he could have done better, anything more I don't know. Howard's problems of course are way way more severe.

This is not true. Howard didn't even get in line to shake hands initially - he waited, and the announcers saw that and commented on that. Then when Howard approached Gard, and Howard dropped his mask and said, "I'll remember that ****[/url]", and you can see on the video Howard dropping his mask as he approaches Gard.

 

That's when Gard reacted and stopped him, according to Gard to try to explain why he did what he did. Gard didn't stop Howard because he passed him or disrespected him - Howard started it by swearing at Gard first.

 

Proof:

 

I'm not a Badgers fan, Howard is 100% the aggressor there. Man Baby. He should not have a job tomorrow.

[LouisEly]

Thanks, I hadn't seen that when I posted earlier. Gard's behavior looks even worse to me than what was on TV; he reacted to the comment by getting in front of Howard, physically detaining him, and shouting angrily at him (can't tell if that's the f word there or not).

No, that was Howard shouting the f-word at Gard.

 

Physically detaining a guy who is foot taller than you? Really?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Gard instinctively wanted to explain to him what happened and clear up a misunderstanding, and the Man Baby was trying to blow by him at 100mph after running his mouth. That is 100% what the "grab" was. Howard went looking for a fight. Gard, I guess, made the cardinal sin of grabbing an elbow and attempting a handshake in a handshake line.

 

I can't fathom an NCAA D1 head coach keeping a job after throwing a slap/punch at opposing staff.

 

If Howard didn't want to be "touched," why was he in the line?

 

To throw a tantrum and get his incendiary words in.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Gard did not 'physically detain' Howard. He put his hand on his arm and (from appearances) it looks like he tried to have a conversation with him. If Juwan Howard couldn't step away from Greg Gard, who's probably a foot shorter and 50 pounds lighter, yikes.

 

Howard *Started* the incident by getting in the handshake line and saying, as he got to Gard "We're gonna remember this (stuff)". Gard could have nodded and been like "ok cool, you're mad". He tried (again, it appears) that he tried or wanted to explain his reasoning for taking the timeout, or ask Howard what the problem was. Or just to tell him to chill out.

 

And I'll state again, if someone 50 lb lighter than Howard and a foot shorter than him putting a hand on his elbow is justfication for his behavior in that clip, he's got an issue that needs addressing.

[sdcheezhd]

Howard wanted to make his comment and keep going and Gard got in his way, put his hands on him and prevented him from doing that, short of Howard pushing him out of the way. You don't have to accept Howard's BS that he felt threatened. That's physically detaining him. It doesn't matter who's taller.

 

Just say yeah whatever [loser] or OK cool you mad or whatever and deal with it at the presser. Don't block his way and start yelling at him. What does he think, Howard's going to say now that you're explaining it all to me in this calm and rational setting I feel quite the fool? He's not trying to get Howard to understand he's just venting and fighting.

 

Howard is going to get a richly deserved suspension for at least the rest of the year, and it might be career-ending. He was dumb to even be complaining about the TO to start with. But Gard screwed up too, and I think more than just a bit. I'll think less of him if he doesn't acknowledge that at some point.

[PeaveyFury]

And he's got a history;

 

Wait, you mean this about Gard and are citing a situation manufactured by a guy on power grab, rather than Howard whose history apparently includes threatening to kill Mark Turgeon last year?

 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2935895-report-maryland-alleges-juwan-howard-told-mark-turgeon-ill-f-king-kill-you.amp.html

[homer]

And he's got a history;

 

Wait, you mean this about Gard and are citing a situation manufactured by a guy on power grab, rather than Howard whose history apparently includes threatening to kill Mark Turgeon last year?

 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2935895-report-maryland-alleges-juwan-howard-told-mark-turgeon-ill-f-king-kill-you.amp.html

 

and he called a timeout down double digits with under a minute to go against OSU like a week ago

 

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Howard wanted to make his comment and keep going and Gard got in his way, put his hands on him and prevented him from doing that, short of Howard pushing him out of the way. You don't have to accept Howard's BS that he felt threatened. That's physically detaining him. It doesn't matter who's taller.

 

Just say yeah whatever [loser] or OK cool you mad or whatever and deal with it at the presser. Don't block his way and start yelling at him. What does he think, Howard's going to say now that you're explaining it all to me in this calm and rational setting I feel quite the fool? He's not trying to get Howard to understand he's just venting and fighting.

 

Howard is going to get a richly deserved suspension for at least the rest of the year, and it might be career-ending. He was dumb to even be complaining about the TO to start with. But Gard screwed up too, and I think more than just a bit. I'll think less of him if he doesn't acknowledge that at some point.

 

I see your point for sure. I see it like this: Gard should've handled it better. I do think, though, that it's pretty natural human instinct to try and explain your actions when someone confronts you about them, especially when you feel you are justified. If Howard had got in my face, I probably would have gotten a little fired up and tried to verbally defend myself.

 

That's not to say it's right. It's to say that I understand Gard's actions way more than Howard's, even if both are wrong. Gard should own his actions and try not to get so easily riled up when someone takes offense. That's a totally different ballpark than Howard.

 

We mostly agree. I just do think Gard's screw up is minor compared to Howard's. Is it minor in a vacuum? I think probably? The biggest thing I think Gard did wrong was just rising to the bait a bit too much--he got a bit too vehement in talking to Howard, I think because he was more upset than he let on in the post game interviews about the full-court press. He didn't want Howard to get the last word. Maybe I just have the same problem.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Howard has his hand grabbing Gard's shirt pretty damn near simultaneously when Gard touches his elbow. It isn't seen on camera but a couple seconds later you do see Howard let go of his shirt.

 

It is so obvious to me that Gard just instinctively did something to halt him from storming off and explain why he called timeout, which seems perfectly reasonable. Coaches do that elbow move about 90% of games.

 

Howard used the "put your hands on me" nonsense as some stupid gaslight to permit the tantrum he was about to throw. He wanted Gard to brush him so he could have his little "how dare you touch me" moment and escalate the situation. He was 100% the aggressor. Gard did nothing wrong.

Edited February 21, 2022 by OldSchoolSnapper

[PeaveyFury]

If the benchmark is a no-context 'don't put your hands on me', I think it's possible to say that Gard made an error in that regard. But knowing Gard and his character, I genuinely believe Gard wanted to stop Howard to legitimately explain. Of course, when Howard says 'don't put your hands on me' while having a handful of Gard's shirt seems to take the wind out of the sails of Howard's argument in that regard.

 

I think in the end, the reality is Howard wanted to get a blow-by shot in and Gard wanted to respond by explaining. Would it have been best in the end if Gard had just ignored it? Yep. But basically everything Howard did immediately before and literally everything after that one moment was a raging embarrassment for both Michigan and the league. And it's not a shock considering that Howard apparently falls apart at the hint that he feels disrespected, even if that means ignoring all of his own actions that led to the situation, like say pressing a bunch of walk-ons down 16 and then insulting all of our intelligence after the fact by claiming a press wasn't a press.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

If the benchmark is a no-context 'don't put your hands on me', I think it's possible to say that Gard made an error in that regard. But knowing Gard and his character, I genuinely believe Gard wanted to stop Howard to legitimately explain. Of course, when Howard says 'don't put your hands on me' while having a handful of Gard's shirt seems to take the wind out of the sails of Howard's argument in that regard.

 

I think in the end, the reality is Howard wanted to get a blow-by shot in and Gard wanted to respond by explaining. Would it have been best in the end if Gard had just ignored it? Yep. But basically everything Howard did immediately before and literally everything after that one moment was a raging embarrassment for both Michigan and the league. And it's not a shock considering that Howard apparently falls apart at the hint that he feels disrespected, even if that means ignoring all of his own actions that led to the situation, like say pressing a bunch of walk-ons down 16 and then insulting all of our intelligence after the fact by claiming a press wasn't a press.

 

100.

[LouisEly]

Howard wanted to make his comment and keep going and Gard got in his way, put his hands on him and prevented him from doing that, short of Howard pushing him out of the way. You don't have to accept Howard's BS that he felt threatened. That's physically detaining him. It doesn't matter who's taller.

Gard puts his hand on Howard's elbow, Howard grabs a fistful of Gard's shirt. Yet Gard is the one who is "physically detaining" Howard?

 

Consider this - if Gard lets Howard blow by, what's Howard going to say/do to the rest of Gard's staff and players as he goes through the line? Do you, as the head coach, let that happen?

[sdcheezhd]

 

We mostly agree. I just do think Gard's screw up is minor compared to Howard's. Is it minor in a vacuum? I think probably? The biggest thing I think Gard did wrong was just rising to the bait a bit too much--he got a bit too vehement in talking to Howard, I think because he was more upset than he let on in the post game interviews about the full-court press. He didn't want Howard to get the last word. Maybe I just have the same problem.

 

I started off by saying I agreed with all of what you said so I'll go with we mostly agree as well. You were saying maybe 25% on Gard and I was saying maybe 3% but same idea. Gard should have let it go until the presser when as you note he was better able to control himself. I'm sure he'd handle it differently if he had to do it again. And again, none of this justifies what Howard did.