Season’s Over [Therapy Thread]

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Wouldn't shock be if Counsel went with the lefty Hader against two left-handed batters. One of which is Freddie Freeman.

 

Exactly. Hader was the exact right call to pitch the 8th last night. Hader against Freeman is a matchup that should substantially be in the Brewers' favor. Sometimes things happen that simply defy matchups and logic, though.

[adambr2]

Williams was absolutely a major factor last night. It's not just the 8th inning. Not having Williams for potentially 1 to 2 innings forces you to make other decisions with your staff that you might otherwise not make.

 

Heck, it's possible that Counsell has 6 innings from his pen mapped out last night, goes for the extra runs in the 4th last night, pulls Lauer after 3 and Lauer/Strickland never blow it in the 4th, if Williams is available.

 

Even if you think that's a stretch, having no Williams likely forces Counsell to lean on Ashby much more than he was really comfortable with.

 

Not having Williams reduces the length in the pen which forces your hand on earlier game decisions or at the very least can influence them.

[Fear The Chorizo]

It's tough to prove impact on something that had no chance of happening due to injury - my simple point is that the Brewers' pitching staff would've been much better positioned with Williams healthy and available for any of these games than him not being there, and to me that alone negatively impacted their chances in the series. Simple comparison to me would be what would the Braves' pen have looked like if Matzek punched a wall and wasn't able to pitch meaningful innings in all 4 games?

 

With the exception of seeing something obvious as Boxberger come into an 8th inning when the Brewers had a lead and promptly giving it up, some people would say not having Williams would never have made a difference - but bullpen use and those type of decisions trickle down to how other relievers are utilized.

[jerichoholicninja]

The offense cratered. The lack of any particular pitcher made no difference.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Williams was absolutely a major factor last night. It's not just the 8th inning. Not having Williams for potentially 1 to 2 innings forces you to make other decisions with your staff that you might otherwise not make.

 

Heck, it's possible that Counsell has 6 innings from his pen mapped out last night, goes for the extra runs in the 4th last night, pulls Lauer after 3 and Lauer/Strickland never blow it in the 4th, if Williams is available.

 

Even if you think that's a stretch, having no Williams likely forces Counsell to lean on Ashby much more than he was really comfortable with.

 

Not having Williams reduces the length in the pen which forces your hand on earlier game decisions or at the very least can influence them.

 

 

Exactly. You can't just look at what happened then decide you wouldn't have used him, so it's not a factor. We just don't know what goes down. Personally I think it's likely we see Williams at some point during the Ashby disaster.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The offense cratered. The lack of any particular pitcher made no difference.

 

Again, very simplistic and arguably just false. No Williams, no Suter. I don't think we get Ashby in back-to-back games otherwise. Possibly a 4-2 win. Maybe a 8-4 loss. We don't know. But claiming it made no difference is pretty absolutist.

[bjkrautk]

Williams absence was a total nonfactor in the series.

 

Hader wouldn't have been pitching to Freeman in the 8th inning if Williams had a functional throwing hand.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Williams absence was a total nonfactor in the series.

 

Hader wouldn't have been pitching to Freeman in the 8th inning if Williams had a functional throwing hand.

 

I disagree. Hader is the exact match-up you'd want facing a power-hitting left-handed first baseman in a tied game in the bottom of the 8th.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

Suter's absence was a bigger loss in this series than Williams, IMO.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The offense cratered. The lack of any particular pitcher made no difference.

 

I don't think anyone's saying the lack of offense wasn't the main problem/reason the Brewers lost - Having that just whitewash over the other shortcomings the Brewers had in the bullpen that contributed to them losing a pair of games in this series isn't the way to look at it either, though.

 

To me the offense not producing AND the bullpen being thinner than it would've been largely due to Williams' injury combined to produce many of the questionable in-game managerial decisions CC made in games 2-4.

[MrTPlush]

Suter's absence was a bigger loss in this series than Williams, IMO.

 

I was just about to say this and scrolled down to see your post. Watching Ashby suck was a bit of a bummer. Maybe Suter would have been no better, but certainly would have been in the game over Ashby last night.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Williams absence was a total nonfactor in the series.

 

Hader wouldn't have been pitching to Freeman in the 8th inning if Williams had a functional throwing hand.

 

I disagree. Hader is the exact match-up you'd want facing a power-hitting left-handed first baseman in a tied game in the bottom of the 8th.

 

I don't have the splits in front of me, but I think it's a tougher in-game decision at that point to just go to Hader because Williams is no slouch against LHB either and at that point the Brewers would know they'd need to get at least 3 more outs in the 9th to win the game.

 

I also hated the fact earlier moves led to Maile being the catcher that inning - no idea why Hader is throwing a slider to Freeman in that spot.

[adambr2]

Williams absence was a total nonfactor in the series.

 

Hader wouldn't have been pitching to Freeman in the 8th inning if Williams had a functional throwing hand.

 

I disagree. Hader is the exact match-up you'd want facing a power-hitting left-handed first baseman in a tied game in the bottom of the 8th.

 

Was there one single time this season when both Williams and Hader were available that they went with Hader in the 8th and Devin in the 9th in the name of matchups?

[Thurston Fluff]

For myself the hard part of every season ending is losing part of my daily life. It always feels so hollow for a week or so. This season was awesome day to day for the whole season. Very few losing streaks and a lot of series wins. Thus most days I had a bit of built in joy. Even the days they lost was usually comforted by the fact they won or could still win the series. I don't usually get emotionally invested in any particular game until the playoffs. The sad part of this season- other than having a three to four hour hole to fill every day- is the playoff adrenaline was so short lived compared to the daily enjoyment I got from the regular season.

[TURBO]

Not sure we ever got to see the ill effects of losing Devin Williams.

 

Game 1 - We won

Game 2 - Scored zero runs

Game 3 - Scored zero runs

Game 4 - Josh Hader blew it

 

So where did not having Williams really hurt us? I just don't really see a vastly different result in Game 4 having Williams.

 

I also don't get the young pitching really hurting us. Seemed like it did pretty darn well.

 

 

If we had Williams, pretty good chance he pitches the 8th instead of Hader.

 

Would Williams have fared better than Hader? We'll never know.

[SoCalBrewfan]

It's kind of crazy how small the differences can be in playoff baseball, this series came down to a few at bats here and there. Sure, on the macro level the lack of offense was a factor, but it wouldn't have taken much to go differently for us to win. Suter would have pitched for sure and was probably our best weapon to neutralize those lefty bats that made such a difference...sadly Norris was execrable and surely not in consideration as a replacement. Ashby will be good for this team down the road but that was a big stage for a young guy. It's hard to point to a moment where DWilliams would have mattered, but shortening the game has been Counsell's strategy all year and he was without key tools in that strategy for this series.

 

I am disappointed, to be sure, and will be probably be nauseated by whoever is the champion at this point...I'll almost have to root for the Braves tbh since the other choices all suck. But heck, the playoffs are hard...look at TBR and their amazing season ended by the ugly Red Sox, and either the Giants or Dodgers who will have it end soon. All that momentum StLouis was supposed to have didn't help them much vs the Dodgers.

 

As the disappointment fades, and heck even now, this has been a fun team to watch for me. I like the pitching and defense, and the team as a whole seemed like a likable bunch. I'm excited to watch Adames, and to see Urias develop more, and sincerely hope there is help on the way for them. Considering how little we got from the offense they started the year with, it was amazing to get as far as we did.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Was there one single time this season when both Williams and Hader were available that they went with Hader in the 8th and Devin in the 9th in the name of matchups?

 

I can't think of one off hand. But there were plenty of instances where they brought in Hader in a tied home game in the top of the 9th, which would be a similar non-save situation. The difference yesterday, of course, was that Hader would have likely come back out for the bottom of the 9th had the Brewers put a run or two across in the top of the 9th.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Was there one single time this season when both Williams and Hader were available that they went with Hader in the 8th and Devin in the 9th in the name of matchups?

 

I can't think of one off hand. But there were plenty of instances where they brought in Hader in a tied home game in the top of the 9th, which would be a similar non-save situation. The difference yesterday, of course, was that Hader would have likely come back out for the bottom of the 9th had the Brewers put a run or two across in the top of the 9th.

 

There wasn't a double switch when Hader entered in the 8th and his spot was due up 1st in the 9th inning - unless you expected Hader to lead off a 9th inning rally at the plate he wasn't coming back to pitch the 9th.

[TURBO]

The offense cratered. The lack of any particular pitcher made no difference.

 

I don't think anyone's saying the lack of offense wasn't the main problem/reason the Brewers lost - Having that just whitewash over the other shortcomings the Brewers had in the bullpen that contributed to them losing a pair of games in this series isn't the way to look at it either, though.

 

To me the offense not producing AND the bullpen being thinner than it would've been largely due to Williams' injury combined to produce many of the questionable in-game managerial decisions CC made in games 2-4.

 

 

yup.

[MrTPlush]

I don't have the splits in front of me, but I think it's a tougher in-game decision at that point to just go to Hader because Williams is no slouch against LHB either and at that point the Brewers would know they'd need to get at least 3 more outs in the 9th to win the game.

 

I also hated the fact earlier moves led to Maile being the catcher that inning - no idea why Hader is throwing a slider to Freeman in that spot.

 

Yes, Williams is good so he isn't a slouch against either. However Hader had a .376 OPS against LHH with zero homers given up. Williams had a .692 OPS against LHH with 4 homers given up. That, to me, is a massive gap.

 

Hader's splits on the other had were not far apart this year against either. He pretty much dominated anything.

[TURBO]

Knowing CC, he would have used the tried and true formula of Williams in the 8th, Hader in the 9th.

 

Nothing that happened all season long tells me anything differently.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I don't have the splits in front of me, but I think it's a tougher in-game decision at that point to just go to Hader because Williams is no slouch against LHB either and at that point the Brewers would know they'd need to get at least 3 more outs in the 9th to win the game.

 

I also hated the fact earlier moves led to Maile being the catcher that inning - no idea why Hader is throwing a slider to Freeman in that spot.

 

Yes, Williams is good so he isn't a slouch against either. However Hader had a .376 OPS against LHH with zero homers given up. Williams had a .692 OPS against LHH with 4 homers given up. That, to me, is a massive gap.

 

Hader's splits on the other had were not far apart this year against either. He pretty much dominated anything.

 

Agreed, but you also would need to put the context in the game into that decision - 8th inning tie game on the road with both Williams and Hader available and the pitcher's spot due up to bat 1st in the 9th, that's Williams' inning every damn time no matter who's coming up for the Braves.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Was there one single time this season when both Williams and Hader were available that they went with Hader in the 8th and Devin in the 9th in the name of matchups?

 

I can't think of one off hand. But there were plenty of instances where they brought in Hader in a tied home game in the top of the 9th, which would be a similar non-save situation. The difference yesterday, of course, was that Hader would have likely come back out for the bottom of the 9th had the Brewers put a run or two across in the top of the 9th.

 

There wasn't a double switch when Hader entered in the 8th and his spot was due up 1st in the 9th inning - unless you expected Hader to lead off a 9th inning rally at the plate he wasn't coming back to pitch the 9th.

 

Good point. I didn't realize that. That certainly changes things a bit. I guess we'll never know what the plan was for the 9th.

 

The fact remains, though, that Hader vs. Freeman is a matchup that the Brewers win probably 96 times out of 100. It was the type of outside-the-box move that many here have been begging for while the Brewers went with more ridgid bullpen roles in the regular season. It just didn't work out.

[MrTPlush]

Knowing CC, he would have used the tried and true formula of Williams in the 8th, Hader in the 9th.

 

Nothing that happened all season long tells me anything differently.

 

I mean, he has done things before and pitched Hader out of the 9th inning. Twice in the 2018 NLCS he pitched three innings. The first of which didn't include either the 8th or 9th. Postseason baseball is different. Counsell couldn't stop toying with making sure he used all three catchers. Not sure he does stuff like that in the regular season. Does Peralta get pulled dominating through 4 innings in the regular season? Does Woodruff pitch on two days rest in the middle of a game? None of that happened all season till then

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

For myself the hard part of every season ending is losing part of my daily life. It always feels so hollow for a week or so. This season was awesome day to day for the whole season. Very few losing streaks and a lot of series wins. Thus most days I had a bit of built in joy. Even the days they lost was usually comforted by the fact they won or could still win the series. I don't usually get emotionally invested in any particular game until the playoffs. The sad part of this season- other than having a three to four hour hole to fill every day- is the playoff adrenaline was so short lived compared to the daily enjoyment I got from the regular season.

 

Well said.

 

I'm bummed Freddy only got 50 postseason pitches. I really thought this series was going to be epic. 2011 epic only without the road blowouts. 5 tight games, and I thought the Brewers would win. Having a short postseason experience hurts.

 

BUT

 

This team had an 11-game win streak, and I loved that stretch. They combined for a no-hitter. The pitching staff was unreal all season, and I loved watching Wong play second-base.

 

They owned the Cubs all year, even when the Cubs were good.

 

Big ninth-inning comeback on opening day. An ultimate walk-off grand slam to really crush the Cards title hopes. Some really fun extra innings and late-game wins, including against the Dodgers. I had fun for half a year, and it felt soooo good to have something like normal baseball.

 

Given all that, this will not ever be a forgettable season for me. While a lot of my life is still impacted by the pandemic (I teach, older parents, kids too young for the vaccine, etc.), my baseball life felt like every year before 2020, only with a division title at the end of it. That's not going to be forgettable for me.

 

Go Brewers. World Champs someday. Sooner than we think.