Season’s Over [Therapy Thread]

[Outlander]

At least we have football and the Packers.

Yuck, the only reason to invest your time and energy in the Packers is if you like how you are feeling right now after the Brewers loss.

[rickh150]

I expected them to win this series because of Burnes and Woodruff and Hader. I expected each to pitch every game and really only Peralta to start another game this series. Pitching these 10th and 11th best pitchers on our team in key innings was just not even in my thought process.

 

The only way I thought they'd bring Burnes back on short rest is if they were down 2-1. They were and this was clearly a game where 6+ innings were needed from the starter. Counsell made the wrong call. It was not a good series for him as he was outmanaged considerably.

 

Adam McCalvy tweeted that in the wild card era 1995 to present starters on short rest in the postseason are 30-45 with a 4.58 era averaging 5.1 innings. That doesn't include Morton's number today which would make those numbers even worse.

 

Given those numbers I have a hard time taking anyone seriously that thinks CC screwed up by not pitching Burnes on short rest.

 

I'm sure CC would have rather had Suter and Williams pitch some of the innings in this series that he gave to other arms, but those guys weren't available despite the organization doing everything possible to have the team healthy for the post season. Other than his first game disaster start and his last game hiccup against the Dodgers Ashby looked pretty darned impressive. Unless we were going to sweep the Braves in 3 games those guys were going to have to get some outs at some point.

 

At the end of the day we lost because the bats went cold for two games and our best pitcher and arguably the best reliever in the game got beat by their best hitter. It happens.

 

The bucks won a championship because Durant's toe was on the line. Sometimes you need a little luck to win a title. They obviously didn't have it this year.

 

Each situation is different. Some WS are won because an ace pitched well in games 1, 4, and 7.

No Williams and no presumably multi inning Hader is one of the reasons Burnes pitches game 4. Throw in no Suter too. Too many guys throwing meaningful innings in the NLDS. Has Strickland thrown with a two run lead ever this year? Yet he and Ashby are expected to hold down the fort, not to mention presumably Boxberger in the 9th, of an elimination playoff game?

34 innings……

Woodruff 7.1

Burnes 6

Peralta 4

Lauer 3.2

Houser 3

Ashby 2.2

Strickland 2.1

Boxberger 2

Hader 2

Cousins 1

[AdvantageSchneider]

 

The only way I thought they'd bring Burnes back on short rest is if they were down 2-1. They were and this was clearly a game where 6+ innings were needed from the starter. Counsell made the wrong call. It was not a good series for him as he was outmanaged considerably.

 

Adam McCalvy tweeted that in the wild card era 1995 to present starters on short rest in the postseason are 30-45 with a 4.58 era averaging 5.1 innings. That doesn't include Morton's number today which would make those numbers even worse.

 

Given those numbers I have a hard time taking anyone seriously that thinks CC screwed up by not pitching Burnes on short rest.

 

I'm sure CC would have rather had Suter and Williams pitch some of the innings in this series that he gave to other arms, but those guys weren't available despite the organization doing everything possible to have the team healthy for the post season. Other than his first game disaster start and his last game hiccup against the Dodgers Ashby looked pretty darned impressive. Unless we were going to sweep the Braves in 3 games those guys were going to have to get some outs at some point.

 

At the end of the day we lost because the bats went cold for two games and our best pitcher and arguably the best reliever in the game got beat by their best hitter. It happens.

 

The bucks won a championship because Durant's toe was on the line. Sometimes you need a little luck to win a title. They obviously didn't have it this year.

 

Each situation is different. Some WS are won because an ace pitched well in games 1, 4, and 7.

No Williams and no presumably multi inning Hader is one of the reasons Burnes pitches game 4. Throw in no Suter too. Too many guys throwing meaningful innings in the NLDS. Has Strickland thrown with a two run lead ever this year? Yet he and Ashby are expected to hold down the fort, not to mention presumably Boxberger in the 9th, of an elimination playoff game?

34 innings……

Woodruff 7.1

Burnes 6

Peralta 4

Lauer 3.2

Houser 3

Ashby 2.2

Strickland 2.1

Boxberger 2

Hader 2

Cousins 1

 

No pitcher has won 3 games as a starter in the WS since 1968. Randy Johnson won two as a starter and one as a reliever in 2001. So I'm glad you aren't in charge of strategy for the brewers because pinning our WS hopes on some miracle once in a generation pitching performance is pretty silly.

 

Strickland pitched in 57 games for the Brewers this season. He pitched in 4 games in a save situation. He pitched in 4 games that were tied. He didn't have a ton of high leverage innings for the Brewers but then you probably wouldn't expect him too since we have Williams and Hader. Boxberger locked down the 7th inning role pretty well.

 

You seem to have a very short term memory. Burnes in game 1 only went 6 innings and that was with extra rest. And it was only scoreless because of a tremendous play by Tellez and Narvaez.

 

There have been 18 playoff games this post season. 36 starts. I see two starters made it 7+ innings and two made it 6+ innings. Plenty of other big name starters haven't been able to make it through 4 innings. This idea that Burnes was going to come in and pitch 6 solid innings on short rest is ridiculous.

[nodakfan17]

Mods, can we get another Why can’t Wisconsin sports fans have nice things thread? (half joking)

[MrTPlush]

I expected them to win this series because of Burnes and Woodruff and Hader. I expected each to pitch every game and really only Peralta to start another game this series. Pitching these 10th and 11th best pitchers on our team in key innings was just not even in my thought process.

 

The only way I thought they'd bring Burnes back on short rest is if they were down 2-1. They were and this was clearly a game where 6+ innings were needed from the starter. Counsell made the wrong call. It was not a good series for him as he was outmanaged considerably.

 

If we needed six innings he made the right call and his only option. No way Burnes could go on short rest and pitch six innings. Sounds like he couldn’t go at all.

 

Burnes is great, but it is like people think he can pitched every day and even a sore/weak arm on short rest is just going to mow down everything in sight. History says he would probably been as effective as Lauer.

[rickh150]

Expecting Burnes to start one game all season on three days rest is reasonable. Expecting that, again, is reasonable from a healthy, young pitcher.. Others have done that throughout this postseason alone. How long he could go and how well he would do are not based on other stats from pitchers who did the same 20 years ago. He is still not hurt either in any way.

 

I was still fine pitching Lauer because of his strong second half, and he did fairly well short term. This decision, however, limited Woodruff’s (and ultimately Burnes) innings this series in a potential Game 5 at home with Burnes set to start, I presume.

 

In general, I was willing to press Burnes, Woodruff, and Hader for innings in this five game series. Throwing those guys (and Peralta) only 19.1 innings (ERA a little under 2 so far) out of 34 wasn’t quite enough, especially with Williams out, Suter hurt, and others simply not as good.

[StearnsFTW]

Obviously a great season. So many great pitching performances. Offense was a stinker, but 95 wins, division champs, best pitching staff ever constitutes a great season.

[jonescm128]

Obviously a great season. So many great pitching performances. Offense was a stinker, but 95 wins, division champs, best pitching staff ever constitutes a great season.

 

Having that entire pitching staff together next year (with full years from Ashby and maybe Ethan Small) keeps our window open for a few years.

[StearnsFTW]

Obviously a great season. So many great pitching performances. Offense was a stinker, but 95 wins, division champs, best pitching staff ever constitutes a great season.

 

Having that entire pitching staff together next year (with full years from Ashby and maybe Ethan Small) keeps our window open for a few years.

 

For sure. Now we just need Yelich to be at least "good" instead of "not good". Miami Yelich would be fine, although I'm not expecting it tbh.

[phnxcrew]

We were stung by a marginal offense, young pitching that wasn’t used to the workload (in addition to the 2020 COVID effect), and Williams punching a wall. if the starting pitching is all getting extra rest next season all year (and in the playoffs) then it becomes a managerial issue. they need to push these guys now that they’ve had a cautious year. we finally developed enough pitching to plug a couple holes with excess pitching which is something they’ve never done. I suppose that’s the silver lining of an otherwise disappointing season.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

We were stung by a marginal offense, young pitching that wasn’t used to the workload (in addition to the 2020 COVID effect), and Williams punching a wall. if the starting pitching is all getting extra rest next season all year (and in the playoffs) then it becomes a managerial issue. they need to push these guys now that they’ve had a cautious year. we finally developed enough pitching to plug a couple holes with excess pitching which is something they’ve never done. I suppose that’s the silver lining of an otherwise disappointing season.

 

Good post! I agree fully. I totally understood the way they handled the pitching staff this year. But all bets are off next season regarding innings limits, skipping starts and whatnot. It's time for these guys to step up now and show that they can be true aces. Bringing back Burnes, Woodruff, Peralta, Houser and Lauer, with Ashby and Small waiting in the wings, will make this the team to beat in the NL Central once again next season.

[Pugger]

As good as our pitching was we all knew the offense was the weakest part of the team. Having truly terrible years from guys you expected to anchor the offense (Yelich and Hiura) really set this team back. However, we were able to acquire a star in Adames and saw Urias grow into a solid player so we can build on those.

I kind of get what you were saying, but I wasn't expecting Yelich and especially not Hiura, to carry the team this year. Hoping sure, but that's all.

 

Maybe not carry the team but I think we all would have liked them to be at least productive. You can't have 2 players like this hit like a pitcher does. :-/

[Pugger]

The season was actually really fun - bad ending aside.

I think that we got exposed for a lack of pitching depth (specifically relief pitching), and - obviously - our offense.

 

A mediocre offense - especially if it goes into a funk - is really a disaster waiting to happen. And that's pretty much what happened over the last couple of weeks of the season - and the playoffs.

 

We have a lot of really good pieces - but without 2019-20 Yelich - there's just no stud bat out there - and that hurts.

 

Oh well. Gonna go hug my Giannis poster.

 

Losing Williams to stupidity hurt us big time. Not having Suter for the Braves series didn't help either.

[Pugger]

At least we have football and the Packers.

 

Don't forget about the Bucks.

[JohnBriggs12]

They lost this series in game 3 when Counsell took one of the top pitchers in baseball out after 4 shutout innings because he was so desperate to score a run or two in the middle innings. While it would have been nice, even a run or two there doesn't guarantee anything with their depleted bullpen. Even if Peralta allowed a run or two in the 5th and 6th and they lost game 3, saving arms in the pen would have accomplished something. With Lauer scheduled to go the next day, they needed Peralta to go at least 6 and have the bullpen fully functional for a possible elimination game. Ashby was simply not ready for the role Counsell put him in. Whether Suter could have done better is debatable but not having him AND Williams available was too much for the rest of the pen and for Counsell to play the short start strategy.

[Jopal78]

They lost this series in game 3 when Counsell took one of the top pitchers in baseball out after 4 shutout innings because he was so desperate to score a run or two in the middle innings. While it would have been nice, even a run or two there doesn't guarantee anything with their depleted bullpen. Even if Peralta allowed a run or two in the 5th and 6th and they lost game 3, saving arms in the pen would have accomplished something. With Lauer scheduled to go the next day, they needed Peralta to go at least 6 and have the bullpen fully functional for a possible elimination game. Ashby was simply not ready for the role Counsell put him in. Whether Suter could have done better is debatable but not having him AND Williams available was too much for the rest of the pen and for Counsell to play the short start strategy.

 

They got shut out in game 3. Cannot win without runs no matter how well the pitcher pitches, so really while Counsell decided to abandon his strength in that game (pitching) to try to get some runs, it really didn't matter in the outcome.. unless of course you think Peralta would've homered or something.

[adambr2]

Devin Williams really, really screwed over his teammates with his immaturity. We will never know if things turn out differently if he is available but it certainly did not help.

[bork]

We've got a 3 year window with the pitching staff. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that the success over that window depends on Yelich. He's taking 1/4 of the payroll over the next 7 years. Add to that the money they're paying Braun, Cain and Bradley over the next 5 years, whether they're playing or not and there's not a ton of money to upgrade the offense.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't believe for a second what Burnes said. Counsell made a decision that he believed in and Corbin had to give an answer that wouldn't rock the boat or throw his manager under the bus. I'm not saying Burnes should have started or that Counsell made the wrong call but I don't think there was any truth in what Corbin said.

[MrTPlush]

Not sure we ever got to see the ill effects of losing Devin Williams.

 

Game 1 - We won

Game 2 - Scored zero runs

Game 3 - Scored zero runs

Game 4 - Josh Hader blew it

 

So where did not having Williams really hurt us? I just don't really see a vastly different result in Game 4 having Williams.

 

I also don't get the young pitching really hurting us. Seemed like it did pretty darn well.

[jerichoholicninja]

Williams absence was a total nonfactor in the series.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

They lost this series in game 3 when Counsell took one of the top pitchers in baseball out after 4 shutout innings because he was so desperate to score a run or two in the middle innings.

 

We never scored. Nolan Ryan could have pitched 9 frames. It didn't matter. I don't know how people reflect on this and blame CC. Not his finest series, but yesterday was probably worse than anything he did Monday. In the end, his decisions just didn't matter a whole lot. Whenever we got a small break, ATL was right there punching back.

 

I think some of the choices are ones CC doesn't usually make, but I can't fault him for trying something maybe a little extreme to get a dang run across.

 

The team flamed out a month ago and just never got going again. It's the nature of this cruel sport unfortunately. You hope your bad month is in May, not half of Sept and Oct.

Edited October 13, 2021 by OldSchoolSnapper

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Williams absence was a total nonfactor in the series.

 

I mean, that's not true. It was definitely a factor last night. But until then, largely yes.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Not sure we ever got to see the ill effects of losing Devin Williams.

 

Game 1 - We won

Game 2 - Scored zero runs

Game 3 - Scored zero runs

Game 4 - Josh Hader blew it

 

So where did not having Williams really hurt us?

 

I also don't get the young pitching really hurting us. Seemed like it did pretty darn well.

 

Game 1 - Williams is probably in for the 8th, and I'd say doesn't allow a dinger to Pearls which also gives him 1 less look at Houser for later in the series. They win the game either way.

Game 2 - yep, he probably doesn't impact this one at all.

Game 3/4 - I'd group these together based on CC's decision to pull Peralta after 4 shutout innings in game 3 and essentially turning over at least 9 innings (5 in game 3, at least 4 that would've would up being 5+ in game 4 had Hader not given up the bomb to Freeman) to the bullpen that doesn't have Williams available in a late game situation. Houser immediately gives up another bomb to Pearls and it winds up being the scoring in Game 3 for a L. Not having Williams for game 4 leads to forcing Ashby for multiple innings (tied the game), using Woodruff for 1+ to get through the 6th and 7th, and bringing Hader in the 8th with the team essentially in scramble mode again.

 

Not having Williams screwed up the formula they rolled with most of the year once he got himself right in June - it's not the only reason they lost the series, but it's definitely a reason why they didn't win it.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Fear The Chorizo

[MrTPlush]

So a bunch of stretches to say Williams would have mattered. The negative in Game 1 is inferring some guy would have not killed us in Game 3 had Houser not pitched in Game 1...mind you we scored zero runs in Game 3.

 

I could see the negative impact of not having him in Game 4, but it is too hard to even decipher what on earth Counsell was trying to do and what he would have done with Williams. I am betting he tries squeezing multiple innings from Ashby regardless. I think having Williams would have reduced the chance of seeing Woodruff at all versus seeing Ashby less. If we had Williams last night I am not convinced he even pitches that 8th inning instead of Hader if the scenario was the same. Wouldn't shock be if Counsel went with the lefty Hader against two left-handed batters. One of which is Freddie Freeman.