2021-10-12 (NLDS Game #4): Brewers (Lauer) at Braves (Morton) [Brewers lose, 5-4 -- Freeman’s 8th inning HR off Hader breaks tie, and hearts]

[rickh150]

Lots of reactions and questions for CC….

 

How our 3rd string catcher is in at the end of two playoff games is really surprising.

How Woodruff was not gone to right away after Lauer is troubling. He’s available and we are messing around with guys on base with our 10th and 11th best pitchers?

How Hader was not relied upon for two tonight is headshakingly wrong. Strickland threw more innings this series.

Why we didn’t pinch run Escobar in the 9th? Any good reason? Saving Bradley’s bat?

[sixtolezcano16]

I think you can start with Woodruff. He closing in on 30 and you probably not going to sign him to his next contract (probably can’t afford it anyway). He’s gotta be worth a well above average hitter, at best an all-star level player. You have Ashby who can replace him in the rotation.

[rickh150]

The series is why it's time to trade Hader for a bat. What good is a one inning closer if you can't score?? His value has diminished now that he is 1 inning only guy. He's great and somebody will pay a heavy price. Call the Yankees and ask about Luke Voigt to dh.

 

Hader has been really, really good for us, tonight notwithstanding. We are in the playoffs the last four years because of him, really. His price tag will be huge the next two years though, and that is really limiting his value in a trade. I really don’t want to trade him just to trade him though. We would have to get a pretty good bat somehow.

[clancyphile]

I’m with you ‘stash. When Counsell was first hired he actually had some creative ideas, however as time went on he became more and more like every other manager, boring and extremely predictable. Throughout this year he had some head scratching moments, but he really lost it during the last 3 weeks of the regular season. It was inexcusable the way he managed against the Cards and the Dodgers. To let his foot off the gas was just plain stupid. To continue to bat Yelich 3rd didn’t make any sense and then to PH for Freddy in game 3, just smacked of desperation, it was almost like waving the white flag. Both he and Stearns need to sit down and figure out some creative way to get some above average bats in here. Anyone who thinks next year will be better is just fooling themselves. Do you really think Burns, Woody and Peralta will improve on their 2021 seasons or the current bats will magically improve is delusional.

 

How much of the creativity in 2015-2018 was forced due to holes in the team? Shaw at second is somewhat of a desperation move. Villar was not cutting it, Schoop was a bust (save for one grand slam), and Perez wasn't exactly an ideal starter.

 

The openers reflected a rotation that wasn't all that good, and which didn't really come into its own until 2020.

[oldguy]

Bottom line..many of us said the lack of offense would doom them and it did. Outside of Tellez being involved, 4 games and 2 runs......2 runs....That's as embarrassing as it gets. So many batters with embarrassing at bats swinging at crap while standing there watching good pitches. Who's to blame?

 

1. CC for taking the foot off the gas the last month and killing whatever momentum they had. Hope he learned a lesson from this, but I doubt it. He's still waiting "To catch a break." Teams make their breaks

2. Their nonexistant hitting coach that should of been fired last year. This team needs a different approach to hitting. This was so embarrassing to watch.

3. CC if he doesn't get a new hitting coach.

4. Stearns if 1,2, or 3 don't occur.

 

What started as as a great year ended up as a back door division win and an embarrassing performance in the playoffs. There should be changes. But I guess we should be used to it by now. It's the Brewers being the Brewers Still one of six to never win the Title.

 

There is literally no such thing as a back door division win. We had a great summer and built a big divisional lead that was enough to hold up at the end of the year. I am as frustrated as anybody about how this season ended but no reason to diminish their regular season accomplishments - even with a poor last week or two to end.[/quote

 

Screwed around for a month looking terrible. Little longer and they would have lost the division. I get what you're saying but to me it was a back door.

[clancyphile]

One other thought on Counsell:

This was the first 162-game season when he did not have the option of using players 29-40 on the 40-man in the September games.

 

When you think of the runs the Crew had in September in 2017-2019, it was when the rosters expanded. One of the strengths of Stearns has been putting together the best 29-40 on 40-mans in past seasons. But the new roster rules take that option away.

 

It probably played into how those last couple of weeks went.

[willie key]

Who says these starters will be this good again next year

 

 

This year was a major screw up in the playoffs. Major

[sixtolezcano16]

At least we have football aNd the Packers.

[RobDeer 45]

I feel absolutely gutted by this loss. I felt this team was special and would at least play in the NLCS, with hopes of a World Series appearance. Man, this will sting for awhile.

[yourout]

I will always have the belief that the biggest screw up was not ditching Haines after last year's debacle.

[bucks2281]

This one certainly stings, given the uncertainty about the CBA next season. Hope we get a full season.

[The stache]

I go back to that too but he has zero issues running. It was his right knee and required no surgery. I think his problem is in his head.

 

Not needing surgery means next to nothing where the severity of an injury is concerned. It only means that team physicians didn't need to intervene in order for the patella to heal on its own.

 

Four years ago, I tripped while walking, fell, and broke my left patella into two pieces. Literally into two pieces. There was a very small part of the bone that was still attached at the very top, and my orthopedic surgeon (well, one of two) put me on bed rest for six weeks hoping that the bone would heal on its own. It did. The fracture completely healed.

 

I'm much older than Yelich is (just turned 50 a few weeks ago). I'm not a professional athlete like he is. But if I have to, I can run, and outside of a little soreness afterwords, I'm fine. But putting torque on the knee, while bearing weight, is incredibly painful. I can't do it.

 

Running, and swinging a bat, impact a knee in two completely different ways. The physics are completely different.

 

Mickey Mantle destroyed his right knee in the 1951 World Series. The orthopedic surgeon interviewed by Jane Leavy for her book on Mantle postulated that he tore his ACL, MCL and meniscus. The "Unhappy Triad" injury. Mantle played his entire career with a severely damaged knee. Only his neuromuscular genius helped to compensate for the injury.

 

Mantle could still run like the wind, north south. He experienced no decrease to his burst speed. But he couldn't cut while running. At all. Different situation, clearly, but it goes to the discussion that this knee injury may not impact Christian's ability to run, but it may still be incredibly distracting, and limiting, where his swing mechanics are concerned.

 

I am more concerned that it's a degenerative back condition that they're not talking about. There's no coming back to anything resembling an MVP form from that.

 

I am, too. I'm lucky enough to be dealing with both. They both suck.

 

It's a gigantic leap, obviously, for me trying to understand what could be limiting Christian Yelich from being the player he was even before coming to Milwaukee. Mostly it's trying to find some logical explanation after yet another heartbreaking loss. Some light at the end of the tunnel that gives me a little hope he could be the player he was with the Marlins. It wouldn't be anywhere near value for what we're going to be paying the guy, but if he's a solid bat, average and power wise, with a high walk rate, that would at least be something.

 

I do think it's the back more than anything. But I have to believe it's an issue that has been present for some time, certainly before the 2019 season. And the Brewers would have known about it, and still committed to him for $200 million after the knee injury. And that boggles my mind.

 

Knee injuries can and do exacerbate back issues. A knee injury led to Robert Brooks' back problems, which ultimately forced him to retire (thanks again, Tyrrone Drakeford! ). But how could Milwaukee give him that big an extension before seeing him in actual game play? Existing back issues + new major knee fracture = "hey, let's possibly mortgage the team's future before we know how he is really doing."

 

/face palm

[FVBrewerFan]

I will always have the belief that the biggest screw up was not ditching Haines after last year's debacle.

 

I won't try to stop you and others from believing that. I will only ask this. Do you really believe the best hitting coach in MLB would have made Yelich and Hiura the 2019 versions of themselves. He would have made Garcia anything other than he's been his whole career? He would make Cain 5 years younger and healthy?

 

Sorry, I just think you massively overestimate the results a hitting coach can control. Want him fired? Fine, I don't care either way.

[Eye Black]

This one certainly stings, given the uncertainty about the CBA next season. Hope we get a full season.

On the bright side, probably won’t have to worry about innings limits for the starters next season.

 

In all seriousness, I think a season will happen next year, but I would bet against a full season. I have a feeling they’ll come to some sort of agreement in the spring of 2022.

[The stache]

I think a lot of the blame should be placed at the feet of Craig Counsell. The entire final two weeks, or so, of the regular season was a giant dumpster fire. It started by losing two on the road to the Tigers. We took two of three from the Cubs, but they'd had a giant fire sale, getting rid of Rizzo, Bryant and Baez.

 

We faced the Cardinals and the Dodgers ten times in that finishing stretch, and went 1-9.

 

The narrative I saw over and over on social media was, "well, they're locked in at the #3 spot in the playoffs. They can't improve their playoff seeding, so it makes sense to rest some guys."

 

No. These guys are professional athletes, conditioned to play a 162 game season. You don't limp into the playoffs. You keep playing hard until the season is done, they you go into the playoffs playing good baseball.

 

We didn't. Losing Williams to a colossally stupid broken hand only compounded things.

 

This team is not mentally strong. Neither is our manager. Counsell just makes too many questionable decisions in high leverage situations. Putting our third string catcher in to pinch hit, with Tyrone Taylor available, was just one. Taking Woodruff out after 12 pitches to put Hader in for the bottom of the 8th, meaning that somebody would have to pinch hit for him in the 9th....if we go to extra innings, we have virtually nobody left to pitch with our season on the line.

 

I'm in no mood for silver linings. We're starting to become the Brooklyn Dodgers. "Wait until next year". Only, the Dodgers actually won a World Series.

 

We got our butts kicked by an 85 win team. Does anybody seriously think this team would have any chance against the Giants or the Dodgers, if we somehow made it to the playoffs against them?

 

 

I’m with you ‘stash. When Counsell was first hired he actually had some creative ideas, however as time went on he became more and more like every other manager, boring and extremely predictable. Throughout this year he had some head scratching moments, but he really lost it during the last 3 weeks of the regular season. It was inexcusable the way he managed against the Cards and the Dodgers. To let his foot off the gas was just plain stupid. To continue to bat Yelich 3rd didn’t make any sense and then to PH for Freddy in game 3, just smacked of desperation, it was almost like waving the white flag. Both he and Stearns need to sit down and figure out some creative way to get some above average bats in here. Anyone who thinks next year will be better is just fooling themselves. Do you really think Burns, Woody and Peralta will improve on their 2021 seasons or the current bats will magically improve is delusional.

 

I hate harping on Christian Yelich. I really do. He's such a good guy, and it kills me seeing him struggling.

 

But our manager has to see where any given player is at a current time. Putting Yelich in the #3 spot in the lineup makes sense if the Christian Yelich of 2018 and 2019 is the guy walking to the plate. Hell, I can let it go if he's the Christian Yelich from the Marlins. His last two seasons in Florida, he hit .290 slashing .373/.460/.833, a 127 OPS+. That's during his age 24 and 25 seasons.

 

But Yelich was 1% below league average for the season, and that's after hitting .313 with a .359/.470/.829 August.

 

Yelich hit .221 and slashed .315/.305/.620 from September 1st to October 2nd. And in the first three games of this series, he was 2 for 10, slashing .333/.200/.533.

 

I'm sorry. With the season on the line, that's not who you want at the 3 spot. It's just not. He struck out 50% (5 of 10) of the time he came to the plate in those first three games, then he struck out 3 more times tonight.

 

For the series, Yelich was 3 for 15 with 2 walks and 8 strikeouts. And yet, had we won, you can be sure Counsell would have had him in the 3 slot again for game 5.

 

I'm sorry, but that's not smart managing. There's no justification for it.

[ecjimg]

Again I feel like they will never win a World Series in my lifetime…..but I’m glad they didn’t lose this last game 5-0 or 3-0. They had a lead and Hader blew it like he did in DC.

[AKCheesehead]

Well I just finished watching it on dvr after work. When we were down to the last out and Yelich up, I honestly thought about just hitting stop and delete recording. There wasn’t any doubt in my mind he would strike out to end it. And so ends my 2021 dream.

[MrTPlush]

This one certainly stings, given the uncertainty about the CBA next season. Hope we get a full season.

On the bright side, probably won’t have to worry about innings limits for the starters next season.

 

In all seriousness, I think a season will happen next year, but I would bet against a full season. I have a feeling they’ll come to some sort of agreement in the spring of 2022.

 

They will play a full season. It may be a messy winter trying to figure it out, but I think both sides know these days bickering to the point of missing games benefits no one.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It's a big deal when that's half the payroll.

 

I bolded the part that's actually the problem.

 

Keep on throwing that spaghetti against the wall. It hasn't stuck the first 1,000 times you did it. It ain't gonna stick now.

 

The Brewers are a small market team, They aren't going to suddenly spend $200 million on player payroll. It just isn't going to happen. You need to understand that at some point.

[Brewcrewin07]

It's a big deal when that's half the payroll.

 

I bolded the part that's actually the problem.

 

Keep on throwing that spaghetti against the wall. It hasn't stuck the first 1,000 times you did it. It ain't gonna stick now.

 

The Brewers are a small market team, They aren't going to suddenly spend $200 million on player payroll. It just isn't going to happen. You need to understand that at some point.

 

Never once have I believed or thought they would/could spend $200 million..but they COULD spend $150-$175 million. That would make a HUGE difference. Remember, they have gone as high as $125 mill before.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It's a big deal when that's half the payroll.

 

I bolded the part that's actually the problem.

 

Keep on throwing that spaghetti against the wall. It hasn't stuck the first 1,000 times you did it. It ain't gonna stick now.

 

The Brewers are a small market team, They aren't going to suddenly spend $200 million on player payroll. It just isn't going to happen. You need to understand that at some point.

 

Never once have I believed or thought they would/could spend $200 million..but they COULD spend $150-$175 million. That would make a HUGE difference. Remember, they have gone as high as $125 mill before.

 

And you've been repeatedly asked to "show your work" to back that claim. Never once have you.

[Pugger]

I think a lot of the blame should be placed at the feet of Craig Counsell. The entire final two weeks, or so, of the regular season was a giant dumpster fire. It started by losing two on the road to the Tigers. We took two of three from the Cubs, but they'd had a giant fire sale, getting rid of Rizzo, Bryant and Baez.

 

We faced the Cardinals and the Dodgers ten times in that finishing stretch, and went 1-9.

 

The narrative I saw over and over on social media was, "well, they're locked in at the #3 spot in the playoffs. They can't improve their playoff seeding, so it makes sense to rest some guys."

 

No. These guys are professional athletes, conditioned to play a 162 game season. You don't limp into the playoffs. You keep playing hard until the season is done, they you go into the playoffs playing good baseball.

 

We didn't. Losing Williams to a colossally stupid broken hand only compounded things.

 

This team is not mentally strong. Neither is our manager. Counsell just makes too many questionable decisions in high leverage situations. Putting our third string catcher in to pinch hit, with Tyrone Taylor available, was just one. Taking Woodruff out after 12 pitches to put Hader in for the bottom of the 8th, meaning that somebody would have to pinch hit for him in the 9th....if we go to extra innings, we have virtually nobody left to pitch with our season on the line.

 

I'm in no mood for silver linings. We're starting to become the Brooklyn Dodgers. "Wait until next year". Only, the Dodgers actually won a World Series.

 

We got our butts kicked by an 85 win team. Does anybody seriously think this team would have any chance against the Giants or the Dodgers, if we somehow made it to the playoffs against them?

 

This. All damn day long.

[Pugger]

You could see this for a month now.

 

This team was not good for awhile. They weren’t going to beat anyone with a pulse

I agree with this. I was so pumped when they clinched the postseason weeks ago, but then when they had the chance over the cardinals to end them, and just faltered it all seemed off to me. I kept coming here to read, as a casual fan, that it didn’t matter, but it sure didn’t seem like a great way to enter the postseason.

 

I don't want to break my arm patting myself on the back but a couple of times in the past few weeks I expressed this concern about playing poorly going into the playoffs and some here chided me saying the guys would turn it on once the playoffs started. I'm not happy that I was right to be concerned, believe me.

[Pugger]

Nope. Counsell got outmanaged today and yesterday period. First guessing all of it all day long. Bottom line he did not help the cause today at all. Is he a good manager sure. Doesn't mean he was good this series. Hitting Yelich three is indefensible.

 

They scored 6 runs across four games. That has nothing to do with the manager, and is the main reason they lost. If anything Counsell got desperate and abandoned “pitching in defense” in Game 4 when he pinch hit Vogelbach for Peralta.

 

The Brewers offense gave the pitchers no margin for error in two of the games, and tonight the Braves capitalized on their chances when they got them and the Brewers hitters didn’t; plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the manager.

 

Yes, you can't blame CC when the guys don't hit but he didn't manage the bullpen very well IMO.

[Pugger]

It's been fun watching these games with all of you. We'll believe together again next year.

 

The good news is: these pitchers are very good.

And finding good pitching is the hard part. Finding bats is (relatively) easier.

 

We saw this coming from before the season. They built the team on run prevention, not run scoring.

 

Plus nobody could foresee both Huira and Yelich imploding like they did.