Is this offseason time to trade Hader?

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

The recent Mets and Phillies are prime examples of teams attempting to spend "stupid money" and continuing to come up empty. And they are huge markets that can easily stomach those huge payrolls.

 

However, it does work for some teams (Dodgers) so obviously, if you have stupid money to spend, and you spend it in the right places, it can work...

 

the dodgers won the NL west 8 years in a row before they got anywhere. their last ws title was 1988, so spending stupid money "can" work, but this idea that you have to spend money or you're not trying that keeps getting thrown out there is silly and honestly, wrong.

[adambr2]

Brewcrewin07,

 

So, your posts on baseball economics always seem to assume that everything can be operated within a vacuum free from resulting consequences. Could Mark A. bump the payroll up to $200M next year? Well yes, technically he could, as every team in baseball could if they really wanted to, there is no salary cap rule preventing them from doing so. In the same way, there is nothing technically preventing me from maxing out my credit cards, cashing in my 401K, and spending my next year vacationing on tropical islands. I avoid doing so knowing the reality that there would be harsh consequences of my decision. In the same way, the Brewers would have consequences of a $200M payroll. The best case scenario would be that they would have to slash payroll in future years, which would certainly upset you, and there would be no guarantee that a $200M payroll would "buy" a championship, as teams prove every year.

 

In short, the Brewers aren't in a large enough media market to generate enough revenue to support a consistent $200M payroll.

 

Your posts on this matter are frankly something I would expect to see from a teenager with no grip on basic economics, much less baseball economics. To see someone who has been posting for 15 years on this board recycle this same tired nonsense over and over again is somewhat shocking; I like to think that our fanbase is a little more intelligent than this. It's clear that you will never be convinced that you are wrong on this matter so I can only tell you that the economic outlook for the Brewers is not changing, so continuing to expect otherwise is wasted effort on your part. The reality is that you can either accept the budget that this team works within or align your fandom with a team that is more in line with your expectations on payroll spending.

[TURBO]

 

The recent Mets and Phillies are prime examples of teams attempting to spend "stupid money" and continuing to come up empty. And they are huge markets that can easily stomach those huge payrolls.

 

However, it does work for some teams (Dodgers) so obviously, if you have stupid money to spend, and you spend it in the right places, it can work...

 

the dodgers won the NL west 8 years in a row before they got anywhere. their last ws title was 1988, so spending stupid money "can" work, but this idea that you have to spend money or you're not trying that keeps getting thrown out there is silly and honestly, wrong.

 

I agree, just saying, it can and does work at times.

[monty57]

 

The recent Mets and Phillies are prime examples of teams attempting to spend "stupid money" and continuing to come up empty. And they are huge markets that can easily stomach those huge payrolls.

 

However, it does work for some teams (Dodgers) so obviously, if you have stupid money to spend, and you spend it in the right places, it can work...

 

When "the Magic Johnson group" bought the Dodgers, they threw out "stupid money" and didn't win. When they realized that that strategy didn't work, they went out and signed the best GM in the game in Andrew Friedman. This was the guy who took Tampa, a team with one of the lowest revenues in baseball and continually beat up on the Yankees and Red Sox. Give Friedman a basically limitless revenue stream, and you end up with today's LA Dodgers.

 

So the Dodgers did not get where they are by spending "stupid money." The Orioles got where they are by spending "stupid money," and as long as Angelos is the owner, I never see them getting better. The Dodgers got where they are by having a large payroll and spending it smartly. They probably draft & develop as good as anyone, they just have the luxury of extending their guys, and not having to worry about doing things like trading Hader because he could make $10M next year (which is the theme of this thread). They don't have to discuss whether or not the owner should dig into his own pockets for our viewing pleasure, because their TV deal pays them more each year than they can spend under the luxury tax. As we saw with Turner last offseason, if we decide to "go into the red and make a big splash," they can just outbid us and it doesn't hurt them at all. What do we do then, spend big on the next guy (JBJ) just to show that we can spend? The big market teams will always be able to outbid us, even if Attanasio decided to drive himself and the Brewers into bankruptcy.

 

I think we have a good owner and a GM who knows how to win within his budget. The biggest thing that could derail the Brewers is if they try to spend too much money, and get themselves in a financial mess that keeps them from competing for an extended period of time. Stearns has made a lot of good decisions, and a few bad ones. The bad ones, like the Yelich extension or the JBJ signing, get magnified because of our payroll limitations.

 

There is no doubt that there is an advantage to the teams that can spend more money, and it's unfortunate that the Brewers can't do that. That said, I'm happy that the Brewers' finance office understands the situation and doesn't do something that could cripple the team.

[monty57]

So for the people that say "The Brewers could NEVER have a payroll of $150 Million", let's do a hypothetical...let's say baseball had a salary floor(let's call it the anti tanking measure), and that floor was $150 Million. What would Mark A and the Brewers do?? Would they fold up shop as a franchise and cease to exist? Would he sell the team to someone else?? Or...would he continue to be the owner and pay a minimum of $150 million in salary?? I think two of these options are most realistic, because i HIGHLY doubt the Brewers or any other small market franchise would fold up shop and cease to exist.

 

If your fantasy scenario came to exist, then yes they would fold up, as would the Rays, A's, Royals, and others. Of course, baseball will never do this because the bigger market teams need to have someone to play, so they can't implement a rule that would bankrupt at least a third of their franchises.

 

Now, if they were to make all the teams share their TV revenues equally, then they could implement a "floor," and I'd be all for it. But I don't see that happening either.

[Brewcrewin07]

So for the people that say "The Brewers could NEVER have a payroll of $150 Million", let's do a hypothetical...let's say baseball had a salary floor(let's call it the anti tanking measure), and that floor was $150 Million. What would Mark A and the Brewers do?? Would they fold up shop as a franchise and cease to exist? Would he sell the team to someone else?? Or...would he continue to be the owner and pay a minimum of $150 million in salary?? I think two of these options are most realistic, because i HIGHLY doubt the Brewers or any other small market franchise would fold up shop and cease to exist.

 

So given that scenario..isn't it then fair to say that the Brewers absolutely COULD pay $150 million in salary they just choose not to??

 

No and you do not understand finance at all and that is putting it nicely.

 

So, I will put you down for if baseball had a salary floor of $150 million the Brewers will cease to exist. Got it. I know finance just fine thank you.

[Brewcrewin07]

Brewcrewin07,

 

So, your posts on baseball economics always seem to assume that everything can be operated within a vacuum free from resulting consequences. Could Mark A. bump the payroll up to $200M next year? Well yes, technically he could, as every team in baseball could if they really wanted to, there is no salary cap rule preventing them from doing so. In the same way, there is nothing technically preventing me from maxing out my credit cards, cashing in my 401K, and spending my next year vacationing on tropical islands. I avoid doing so knowing the reality that there would be harsh consequences of my decision. In the same way, the Brewers would have consequences of a $200M payroll. The best case scenario would be that they would have to slash payroll in future years, which would certainly upset you, and there would be no guarantee that a $200M payroll would "buy" a championship, as teams prove every year.

 

In short, the Brewers aren't in a large enough media market to generate enough revenue to support a consistent $200M payroll.

 

Your posts on this matter are frankly something I would expect to see from a teenager with no grip on basic economics, much less baseball economics. To see someone who has been posting for 15 years on this board recycle this same tired nonsense over and over again is somewhat shocking; I like to think that our fanbase is a little more intelligent than this. It's clear that you will never be convinced that you are wrong on this matter so I can only tell you that the economic outlook for the Brewers is not changing, so continuing to expect otherwise is wasted effort on your part. The reality is that you can either accept the budget that this team works within or align your fandom with a team that is more in line with your expectations on payroll spending.

 

Again, I have repeatedly said...not a consistent $200 million payroll, or even that high at all. All I am advocating for is a larger payroll while the young pitching is still under control, and let it rip...see what happens. If it doesn't work, so be it, at least they gave it an honest shot. That's my take on it. IF it did however work and they won a world series(or two) in that time, and when the time came and they had to severely slash payroll, so be that as well. It is what it is. If they got a WS or two in that time, to me it would be well worth it.

 

Making the playoffs is nice and something we brewer fans haven't had a lot of in franchise history, but at some point, that cannot be good enough. Don't pro sports teams play to win a title?? That's the ultimate goal, right??

 

It's a lot like the Packers, great regular seasons, in the playoffs every year, but continuously come up short, so really what difference does it make??

[DuWayne Steurer]

 

Again, I have repeatedly said...not a consistent $200 million payroll, or even that high at all. All I am advocating for is a larger payroll while the young pitching is still under control, and let it rip...see what happens. If it doesn't work, so be it, at least they gave it an honest shot. That's my take on it. IF it did however work and they won a world series(or two) in that time, and when the time came and they had to severely slash payroll, so be that as well. It is what it is. If they got a WS or two in that time, to me it would be well worth it.

 

Making the playoffs is nice and something we brewer fans haven't had a lot of in franchise history, but at some point, that cannot be good enough. Don't pro sports teams play to win a title?? That's the ultimate goal, right??

 

It's a lot like the Packers, great regular seasons, in the playoffs every year, but continuously come up short, so really what difference does it make??

 

 

For one, there's a lot of reasons "letting it rip" for a few seasons and then slashing payroll doesn't make financial sense. You seem to think it does, so taking the time to break down all the reasons it doesn't ...... eh. You have your opinion.

 

Two. There's no indication that Attanasio will EVER run the team this way. You can want him to, but he's not going to. This just isn't how he runs his team (and hopefully not his businesses, if he wants to make money).

 

He bumped payroll just slightly into the red in 2018 to get Moose and Grandal to make a run for it, and he repeatedly mentioned how that was going to make them have to make cuts in 19. This idea you have that they ABSOLUTELY can go up to 150 or 175 million... I don't know where you get your numbers from, but I'll take the word of the guy who's signing the checks. If he says he's not going to increase the payroll, welp, *he's probably not going to do it*.

 

I think by now, everyone gets that's what *you want them to do*, but it's pretty clear this is not the way the Milwaukee Brewers and Mark A run the team.

[nate82]

So, I will put you down for if baseball had a salary floor of $150 million the Brewers will cease to exist. Got it. I know finance just fine thank you.

 

Obviously you do not and creating a strawman argument doesn't really prove anything.

[wntrtxn21]

So for the people that say "The Brewers could NEVER have a payroll of $150 Million", let's do a hypothetical...let's say baseball had a salary floor(let's call it the anti tanking measure), and that floor was $150 Million. What would Mark A and the Brewers do?? Would they fold up shop as a franchise and cease to exist? Would he sell the team to someone else?? Or...would he continue to be the owner and pay a minimum of $150 million in salary?? I think two of these options are most realistic, because i HIGHLY doubt the Brewers or any other small market franchise would fold up shop and cease to exist.

 

So given that scenario..isn't it then fair to say that the Brewers absolutely COULD pay $150 million in salary they just choose not to??

 

No and you do not understand finance at all and that is putting it nicely.

 

So, I will put you down for if baseball had a salary floor of $150 million the Brewers will cease to exist. Got it. I know finance just fine thank you.

 

If baseball had a salary floor of $150M many teams would cease to exist. You'd be back to the 1950's where there were 8 teams in each league.

[monty57]

According to Cots, 20 MLB teams (2/3 of the league) had an opening day 26 man roster under $150M this year. I guess very few teams are serious about winning these days.

 

Of the ten teams that were over that threshold, half of them (the Mets, Phillies, Nationals, Angels and Padres) all failed to make the playoffs, the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals and Dodgers only made the Wild Card. The one division leader with an opening day payroll over $150M was Houston.

 

The Brewers ($99.3M), Rays ($66.7M), White Sox ($128.7), Braves ($131.4) and Giants ($149.5) weren't even trying, and they still took five of the six divisions. I guess "being serious about winning" isn't strongly correlated to actually winning.

 

Or maybe it's just that teams all have budgets, and while spending money can help, and being in a big market is definitely advantageous, there is more to "being serious about winning" than simply spending yourself into the red. Anyone who is "serious about" being successful in any business is certainly "serious about" being financially sound. I'm glad Attanasio is, and I'm also glad that he's enough of a fan that when he really thinks there's a deal out there that will put them over the top (Moose/Grandal, Justin Turner), he is willing to go over budget in an effort to make that deal happen. He's just not crazy enough to go too far overboard.

[DuWayne Steurer]

now that everyone has had their say about finances and what being serious is, let's try and get the thread back on the topic of trading Josh Hader y/n...

 

thanks.

[nate82]

Back to the Hader trade talks what about this trade with Cleveland.

 

Brewers: Jones, Allen and Karinchak

Guardians: Hader and Taylor

 

 

Jones becomes the Brewers starting 3B around June assuming nothing changes in the CBA the Brewers also get Karinchak is basically a RH version of Hader. I am not sure Cleveland would go for this but it would certainly make their bullpen better and they also add a needed OF who hasn't hit arbitration yet. I think this fits in real well for Cleveland value wise I am just not sure this is something they would do or not. I think they may just keep Jones or move him for more offense at another position but I am not sure that is really available in the trade market.

 

I really like Cleveland as a trading partner for the Brewers as I think there are some pieces there that the Brewers and Guardians match up well. I still can't get used to the Guardians name change I am probably going to call them the Indians for awhile like I still call the LA Angels the California Angels. I don't think there is a trade here unless Jones is in the mix which probably kills the deal but I think there is a fit here with Hader just not sure if Cleveland will give up the needed pieces.

[MadThinker88]

Back to the Hader trade talks what about this trade with Cleveland.

 

Brewers: Jones, Allen and Karinchak

Guardians: Hader and Taylor

 

 

Jones becomes the Brewers starting 3B around June assuming nothing changes in the CBA the Brewers also get Karinchak is basically a RH version of Hader. I am not sure Cleveland would go for this but it would certainly make their bullpen better and they also add a needed OF who hasn't hit arbitration yet. I think this fits in real well for Cleveland value wise I am just not sure this is something they would do or not. I think they may just keep Jones or move him for more offense at another position but I am not sure that is really available in the trade market.

 

I really like Cleveland as a trading partner for the Brewers as I think there are some pieces there that the Brewers and Guardians match up well. I still can't get used to the Guardians name change I am probably going to call them the Indians for awhile like I still call the LA Angels the California Angels. I don't think there is a trade here unless Jones is in the mix which probably kills the deal but I think there is a fit here with Hader just not sure if Cleveland will give up the needed pieces.

 

Some feedback for you:

 

First: If you are going to list 'Allen' from CLE, you need to be more specific since CLE has 2 players named Logan Allen and both are LHP.

 

Logan S Allen is on the 40 man roster, is out of options and has top 100 prospect history (from time with SDP and BoSox before getting to CLE as part of the Trevor Bauer trade return in 2019).

 

Logan T Allen was a 2020 draft pick of CLE out of college and he made it all the way to AA Akron in his 1st minor league season.

 

CLE is likely open to dealing Logan S and very unlikely to deal Logan T.

 

Second: Nolan Jones was drafted in 2016 & is on the 40 man roster already. He spent all last season in AAA Columbus. While Jones has mainly played 3B throughout his time in the minors he has also gotten some work in the OF (and practice time at 1B). It is important to note he missed almost all of Sept 2021 due to an ankle injury (very severe sprain) and latest reports have him getting surgery to stabilize the ankle and help the healing. He is expected to be healthy in time for spring training.

 

Many have speculated that NJones is the heir apparent to JRam at 3B, but some observers are not convinced JRam gets traded away. Even if JRam is dealt, Gabriel Aries (acquired by CLE in the 2020 Clevinger trade from SDP) is a better defender at 3B, is already on the 40 man roster & outplayed NJones in AAA this past season while being almost 2 years younger than NJones and more than 5 years younger than the average age in AAA..

 

Someone to watch/ target: INF Jose Tena. There is a deep SS group coming thru the CLE minors which Tena is part of. Tena was an international signing in 2017 and is Rule 5 eligible this offseason if not added to the 40 man roster.

 

Tena played most of the season in High A Lake County (rotating across 2B/ SS/ 3B) until others got moved up to AA Akron. Tena was the primary SS at High A after those promotions happened till the end of the regular season. Tena got his own promotion up to AA Akron for the post-season (AA Akron qualified for playoffs while High A Lake County missed by 1 game) and he played during the 3 game sweep by Akron to take the title. Currently Tena is playing in the AFL & its my estimation his play in the AFL is as a show case to be traded before the 40 man deadline (11/19/21).

 

If another team makes a good offer, Tena can be gotten. Otherwise I suspect Tena gets moved in trade to the ChiCubs & new GM Carter Hawkins (out of the CLE mgmt group) to be the future SS for Cubs in 2 years or so.

 

----------------------------------

Edit to Add:

This next part was written by Jim Callis on MLB Pipeline & posted 10/20/21

 

Jose Tena, INF (No. 12): Signed for $400,000 out of the Dominican Republic in 2017, Tena has one of the best left-handed swings and some of the best bat-to-ball skills in the system, not to mention solid speed and arm strength. He hit .281/.331/.467 with 16 homers and 10 steals in 107 games while making his full-season debut in High-A at age 20.

Edited October 20, 2021 by MadThinker88

[Jopal78]

Hader struck out 45% of the batters he faced in 2021, and was all but automatic in protecting a 9th inning lead.

 

Anything can happen, however I don't think there is a scenario where Brewers would trade Hader this offseason and improve the overall talent level of the team. With two years of team control remaining; only the clubs who want to win now would be potential landing spots for Hader. However, major league player for major league player swaps don't happen very often between two contending clubs. Further, after four consecutive playoff appearances the Brewers are likely trying to field the best group of players it can, which makes trading Hader for prospects illogical.

 

Finally, Rasiel Iglesias is a free agent and had a 2.8 WAR in '21, Kenley Jansen (2.3 WAR) is also a free agent and Craig Kimbrel (2.5 WAR) will also be available. Each of the aforementioned players isn't as good as Hader (3.3 WAR) but two of them cost only money to acquire and Kimbrel certainly would be traded for less prospect capital than Hader as there is but one year remaining on his contract.

[jay87shot]

We still would need to be blown away to trade Hader. All contenders would be interested but I would think only a few would really be desperate enough to overpay, especially since we would want MLB level talent.

 

Different Ideas for MLB talent

Hader to Toronto for Teoscar Hernandez and Nate Pearson

Hader and JBJ to Dodgers for Cody Bellinger and 2 good prospect (this is risky but interesting)(yes I know Bellinger was awful last year)

Hader for Joey Gallo, Luis Gil, and a good prospect

[MadThinker88]

We still would need to be blown away to trade Hader. All contenders would be interested but I would think only a few would really be desperate enough to overpay, especially since we would want MLB level talent.

 

Different Ideas for MLB talent

Hader to Toronto for Teoscar Hernandez and Nate Pearson

Hader and JBJ to Dodgers for Cody Bellinger and 2 good prospect (this is risky but interesting)(yes I know Bellinger was awful last year)

Hader for Joey Gallo, Luis Gil, and a good prospect

 

I am not suggesting that the Brewers should deal Hader on the cheap & yes there might be another team willing to overpay to get Hader to help them contend, but other clubs will not weaken an already depleted/ weak area of their squad to bring in a reliever with limited control remaining.

 

Toronto is struggling to fill out a rotation so its highly doubtful they will trade Pearson in order to get Hader.

 

Toronto has:

Robbie Ray (FA after 2021 WS / November 2021)

Stephan Matz (FA after 2021 WS / November 2021)

Jose Berrios (FA after 2022 WS)

Ross Stripling (FA after 2022 WS)

H-J Ryu (FA after 2023 WS)

Alex Manoah (likely a FA after 2027 season)

 

It can be argued that Toronto made its move to improve the club by adding Berrios at the last trade deadline..

Perhaps NYY will deal Gill when looking at their setup but I think its dicey with Chapman & others in the bullpen already..

 

Rotation wise NYY has:

Corey Kluber (FA after 2021 WS / November 2021)

Jameson Taillon (FA after 2022 WS)

Luis Severino (FA after 2022 WS)

Jordan Montgomery (FA after 2023 WS)

Domingo German (FA after 2024 WS)

Nestor Cortes Jr (FA after 2025 WS)

Gerrit Cole (FA after 2028 WS)

[nate82]

If the Brewers are going to make a trade for a bat I would prefer trading Hader over Mitchell who I think is the Brewers top trade chip but I just don't see anything out there that I would want to trade Mitchell for. Hader on the other hand there are some options though I am not in love with the options that I can see that are out there.

 

Phillies: Hader and Hiura

Brewers: Hoskins and Bohm

 

Mets: Hader

Brewers: Alonso, Diaz and Ramirez

 

Padres: Hader

Brewers: Campusano and Weathers

 

Astros: Hader and Kelly

Brewers: McCormick, Brown and Perez

[brewcrewdue80]

I have no trade ideas but yes. This offseason is the time to trade Hader. The season was a big win for any doubters. The cost while high would be for 2 years.

He's the perfect high price Closer to add for a large market that can see some compensation upon lost in Free Agency.(don't know what that will look like until new CBA)

I think last year people seen it hard to get a top 50 prospect and that would be the only top 100 coming in trade. Gotta believe he's worthy of a top 30 plus a 60s-100s. Sure there are guys on the market but that didn't stop Stearns from Yelich and Cain deals.

Sell high. Waiting in to next season just has to most likely see his price decline. How much better can he do than year he just had?

[adambr2]

A top 30 plus another top 60-100? For 2 years of Hader?

 

I am stunned that there are seemingly numerous people who all saw a very depressed trade market for Josh Hader a year ago who now think it is just going to be different this time.

[Austin Tatious]

I hope Stearns plays Hader the exact way he always has. Stick to your guns on return or we won’t deal him. Stearns made very clear that he considers Hader the best reliever in baseball and that he’s not inclined to deal him short of an offer that blows him away. That’s all been reported repeatedly and everyone on here is aware of that. What you see is what you get here. Two more seasons of Hader is still significant value. Maybe even more so to us, despite his salary. They can make it work.

[Warning Track Power]

If the Brewers are going to make a trade for a bat I would prefer trading Hader over Mitchell who I think is the Brewers top trade chip but I just don't see anything out there that I would want to trade Mitchell for. Hader on the other hand there are some options though I am not in love with the options that I can see that are out there.

 

Phillies: Hader and Hiura

Brewers: Hoskins and Bohm

 

Mets: Hader

Brewers: Alonso, Diaz and Ramirez

 

Padres: Hader

Brewers: Campusano and Weathers

 

Astros: Hader and Kelly

Brewers: McCormick, Brown and Perez

 

I would love this trade. Bohm is the type of hitter the Brewers should be targeting. High average, low strikeout (save his down 2021) hitter. More guys like this please.

[MrTPlush]

A top 30 plus another top 60-100? For 2 years of Hader?

 

I am stunned that there are seemingly numerous people who all saw a very depressed trade market for Josh Hader a year ago who now think it is just going to be different this time.

 

Yah, if we were going to get a Top 30 prospects he would have been gone by now. I won't say impossible at this point, but it really just doesn't make a ton of sense.

 

The only way Hader gets traded at this point is if the Brewers are trading him just because they don't want to lose him for nothing, in my opinion. The Brewers getting this "impossible to resist package" is never coming, in my opinion. To me, that's a pipe dream at this point. If it didn't happen when he was controllable 3-4 years, why happen now?

[monty57]

The only way Hader gets traded at this point is if the Brewers are trading him just because they don't want to lose him for nothing, in my opinion. The Brewers getting this "impossible to resist package" is never coming, in my opinion. To me, that's a pipe dream at this point. If it didn't happen when he was controllable 3-4 years, why happen now?

 

I agree that some posters are overvaluing what we can get, but this is a different offseason than last. Of course, we first have to get past the new CBA, but assuming that happens, there is no longer a concern over whether or not there will be fans in the stands next year. Additionally, we aren't coming off a the crazy, shortened 2020 season.

 

Last offseason, owners and GMs didn't know what to expect as far as revenues for the coming year, and didn't know how to evaluate the talent based on the 2020 season. This year, payrolls should be more "normalized," and GMs will have a good idea what to expect of players after a full season. Let's put it this way, if last year was a normal offseason, we probably wouldn't have let Knebel go. Things are definitely different than they were a year ago.

 

As to Hader's value, the Cubs got Nick Madrigal and a pitching prospect for a season and a half of Craig Kimbrel. That's kind of the return I'd expect. Nothing earth shattering, but someone who can start for the next 5-6 years and maybe even make a couple All-Star appearances. Throw in a prospect, maybe as high as someone at the back-end of the Top 100. This also saves the Brewers around $25M over the next two seasons, which could allow us to do another "Avi Garcia-type" deal.

 

I don't think it's a sure-thing that we trade Hader. In large part, the decision is whether management thinks we are in bad enough need of upgrades elsewhere that it merits trading him. I doubt we have too much money to spend, so trading Hader could get us a young player at a position of need, and free up enough cash to sign someone else.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I am stunned that there are seemingly numerous people who all saw a very depressed trade market for Josh Hader a year ago who now think it is just going to be different this time.

 

I am curious about the bolded part. That seems like 100% speculation to me. Was there any legit news out there that Hader was even on the market last offseason, much less that his trade market was depressed?