Is this offseason time to trade Hader?

[monty57]

Good luck bolstering the offense via Hader. You might get a younger/controllable/cheaper Avisail Garcia type after you trade Hader for prospects and flip them for a bat. Just make Attanasio open his wallet for a marginal bat if that is what you want.

 

The thing about trading Hader is not only would you get the younger, cheaper player(s) back in the trade, but you would also free up around $25M in payroll over the next two seasons, which could allow you to add even more talent.

 

Not sure I’d support any trade involving Burnes/Woodruff/Peralta.

 

Me either. Not this offseason. I would like to see them traded prior to departing for free agency, but I wouldn't trade them this offseason.

 

Just implode the farm. It won’t matter in 3-4 years.

 

I really don't want to go with this strategy. We would be utterly horrible for at least a decade if we trade away all our prospects now and hold everyone to free agency. No thanks.

 

 

We certainly don't have to trade Hader this offseason, and if the return isn't there we shouldn't trade him just to trade him, but I would certainly put him on the market and see what people offer.

[tmwiese55]

As others have said, with the starting P they have they are likely going to be competitors for the next few years. However, with how weak the O is it leads to tons of close low scoring games. Obviously having the best closer is extremely important in those situations so he might be more valuable in our situation than what a closer would normally be valued. As stressful and tough to navigate these games are already, think how much more difficult it would be if you basically didn't know that if you got to the 9th it's over.

 

think they'd have to be overwhelmed and get a ML bat back for him. So probably need to look at contending teams with strong offenses that could afford to give up some hitting. Or due to being strong on O have good guys being blocked.

[BrewBalls]

I think there are many reason for Stearns & Co to consider trading Hader this offseason. He will be making 8 figures next season which will hinder their ability to attract a big bat in free agency.

 

I also think Garcia will likely opt out which leads me to target someone like Nick Castellanos to replace him. If we can flip Hader for some cheap MLB ready players or upper minors prospects we would basically be adding little to our existing payroll to acquire a middle of the order bar like mentioned above.

 

I also feel we have several quality arms besides Williams who are capable of pitching in high leverage situations out of the pen. I guess only time will tell if there is a team willing to pony up for Hader and the Brewers are willing to part ways with arguably the best closer in baseball while their window is still wide open.

Edited October 15, 2021 by bdpecore

[ThisIsMyCrew]

Lots of question marks for the bullpen this coming year.

Strickland, Suter, Box played a large role this year and are free agents. We are assuming Williams heals fine and is dominate again. I’m cautious with that seeing what happened to Yelich. Different injury and position yes, but throwing hand none the less.

 

Hader really is the only one you know what you’ll get out of. Rest of the pen could be league min guys that balance out his larger salary.

 

I think it was Plush who said it. But you don’t trade Hader if you’re serious about contending. He’s an elite closer. And any return for him will be underwhelming for his value to the team.

[TURBO]

 

I also feel we have several quality arms besides Williams who are capable of pitching in high leverage situations out of the pen.

 

Please list those "several" players that you would trust with closing duties...

[jonescm128]

 

I also feel we have several quality arms besides Williams who are capable of pitching in high leverage situations out of the pen.

 

Please list those "several" players that you would trust with closing duties...

 

Yeah not sure there are any. Cousins was good but you can't really throw him into a closers role. Curious to see what their plan is with Ashby. I know they have said they still view him as a starter but with Woodruff, Burnes, Peralta, Lauer, Houser and possibly Ethan Small there are a lot of starters there. I wouldn't hate putting Ashby in that 2018 Hader role...

[TURBO]

I'd like to keep Ashby as a starter, ease Small into a bullpen role like they have done with others in the past, and hive him as a starter as well by 2023.

 

I would not be against trading one of Lauer or Houser for a bat while their value is semi-high, of course, that would mean other teams would value them as much as we do.

 

I just have a hard time dealing from out current starter supply. Going into next season with our starting rotation in tact is a great feeling!

 

2022 starting Rotation:

 

1. Burnes

2. Woodruff

3. Peralta

4. Ashby

5. Houser/Lauer

 

With Small taking over a bullpen role, and becoming a fulltime starter in 2023 or 2024 at the latest.

 

I mean, that is just sick!

[ThisIsMyCrew]

As much as I love Ashby and his potential. Let’s get the guy some help throwing strikes consistently. He is a hit to erratic to count on at this point for high leverage situations.

[monty57]

I think it was Plush who said it. But you don’t trade Hader if you’re serious about contending. He’s an elite closer. And any return for him will be underwhelming for his value to the team.

 

I don't buy the theory that "you can't be serious about winning" if you ever trade a good player or if you fail to spend a ton of money on a guy.

 

The Brewers are a small revenue / small payroll team. They are at a significant disadvantage to teams that can spend a lot of money, so they have to be very smart with things like team control and player cost. Few small market teams have ever shown "sustained success," but the two who have shown some success are the A's and the Rays. I would argue that both of them "are serious about winning," and both of them have traded away good players as the price tag gets higher and the team control gets smaller.

 

Trading away a guy like Hader hurts in one area, but can help in others. They will get young talent back from the team they trade Hader to, and they will not have to pay Hader, so they will have some money to either acquire other players, or to help them afford the pay raises to other guys on their team. I think Stearns has earned some trust from the fans, and if Hader is traded, there is a good chance that they could end up being a better team... certainly in the long-run and possibly even in the short-run.

[markedman5]

Murray implies in the podcast that Hader has some personal animosity towards the organization ( not CC ). I’m assuming it has to do with losing his last arbitration case but obviously I have no idea.

 

[adambr2]

Honestly pretty ridiculous if Hader begrudges the organization to that great of an extent for it.

 

It's how arbitration works, you got what you were entitled to under the terms of your CBA, get over it.

 

If (and I'm saying IF) he refuses to go multiple innings solely on those grounds he is quite bluntly a very petty and bitter individual.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I'd generally agree on the arby thing that he shouldn't blame them for the rules. But, it could be combined with how any contract extensions negotiations are going and if we're being shrewd on it, thus essentially forcing him into one year deals. Again, tough to blame MKE for the horrible economic setup of MLB that just doesn't allow them to give him a healthy contract right now. Then add in that it was reported we were listening to offers on him. So I could see how there could be tensions.

 

I think I mentioned it in a game thread. But I saw him on a quick on field talk on MLB network during the day of game 3 and they asked him about going more than 1 inning and he shut it down with no hesitation. Seemed pretty adamant to me. Didn't even throw out a normal nice guy thing like 'barring a situation where it's a must and my team needs me'. Came off pretty cold/blunt to me.

Edited October 14, 2021 by tmwiese55

[SoCalBrewfan]

The Brewers have done a great job pulling bullpen arms seemingly out of thin air. Many of the key relievers down the stretch weren't on the radar, or even on the team at all, a year ago. Still, I think that strategy benefits from having a couple of proven anchor guys at the back end, and there aren't a lot of blue chip hard throwers in the high minors right now aside from Ashby. They might have enough starter depth to use some of them (Small, for one) in the 'pen of course, which I can't believe I'm actually saying about the Brewers. (Remember when we were so strapped for pitchers that they called Zimmermann back from his fishing camp? All those years ago...)

 

At the same time I have to wonder sometimes whether moving on from Hader might also let the team be more flexible in using the best reliever in the 8th inning or whatever, based on matchups and game situations.

 

I think Stearns has expressed the philosophy that closers are best traded in season to maximize value, and I more than half expect him to hold Hader until a deadline deal 2022 or '23 and get something crazy for him. The salary is of course a growing issue and a lot will depend on how much budget they decide they have.

[MrTPlush]

I mean he had a 1.23 ERA over 58.2 innings. That is like half the ERA and one third of the runs he gave up when they tossed him around like a rag doll in 17-25 more innings.

 

Notably, Counsell told us five million times he only pitches one inning so he could impact more games. He pitched ONE LESS than he did in 2019 and only five more than he had in 2018. So uhh...that logic didn't really work. Of course we all know why it didn't work out that way. While he was available more often he was only really used in save situations and thus his appearances kind of just ended up similar.

 

Now if he really is this much better consistently pitching only one inning I think Josh Hader is the smart one in the room at the end of the day. Though, I am not sure it will work out that way in the long run. I can't blame Josh Hader though. He is the baseball equivalent of an NFL RB. Pitching 80 innings a year and he may implode before ever getting a chance to cash in on his unwordly talent he has. It isn't 'his' CBA either...he wasn't in the MLB when the last CBA was signed, I am pretty sure. Even if he was I would be upset myself...it will cost him $5mil+ in the long run I am sure. Seems a bit ridiculous to demand only one inning and saves over it, but I am not the one losing millions each year.

[titletownking]

Yea I'd generally agree on the arby thing that he shouldn't blame them for the rules. But, it could be combined with how any contract extensions negotiations are going and if we're being shrewd on it, thus essentially forcing him into one year deals. Again, tough to blame MKE for the horrible economic setup of MLB that just doesn't allow them to give him a healthy contract right now. Then add in that it was reported we were listening to offers on him. So I could see how there could be tensions.

 

I think I mentioned it in a game thread. But I saw him on a quick on field talk on MLB network during the day of game 3 and they asked him about going more than 1 inning and he shut it down with no hesitation. Seemed pretty adamant to me. Didn't even throw out a normal nice guy thing like 'barring a situation where it's a must and my team needs me'. Came of pretty cold/blunt to me.

 

‪The rumor of Hader being unwilling to both pitch more than 1 inning and being anything other than a strict closer appears to be true. Brewers and Hader relationship appears to be in a rough spot. Massive difference between him and Woody. I’m fine with moving on from him this winter. All of this crap has rubbed me the wrong way.

[brewers888]

You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.

[markedman5]

You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.

 

We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

 

I think they move him

[ThisIsMyCrew]

You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.

 

We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

 

I think they move him

 

FWIW they paid Hoffman $8 mil in 2010, KRod $8 mil in 2008 and Gagne $10 mil in 2008. So $10 mil for Hader wouldn’t be so outlandish for our history. And he is light years better than these 3.

[markedman5]

You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.

 

We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

 

I think they move him

 

FWIW they paid Hoffman $8 mil in 2010, KRod $8 mil in 2008 and Gagne $10 mil in 2008. So $10 mil for Hader wouldn’t be so outlandish for our history. And he is light years better than these 3.

 

I think if they had those decisions to make today they wouldn’t do it…….no doubt Hader is much better…..Much different informational environment now versus then…..and a different GM making the decisions on how to spend the money……..even if the same owner is cutting the checks.

 

But as I said this is just my opinion on what Stearns/Arnold/MA will do……’we will see in the coming months.

[StearnsFTW]

Honestly pretty ridiculous if Hader begrudges the organization to that great of an extent for it.

 

It's how arbitration works, you got what you were entitled to under the terms of your CBA, get over it.

 

If (and I'm saying IF) he refuses to go multiple innings solely on those grounds he is quite bluntly a very petty and bitter individual.

 

Just spitballing here, but is it possible that he may have been upset that they renewed him after 2018 without a real raise? I remember Fielder being mad about that too.

 

To me, that would make more sense than blaming the team for an arbitration loss, idk.

[monty57]

A lot of teams dislike taking players to arbitration, because in the meeting they basically have to berate the player and say why he doesn't deserve the extra money. I'm sure there are a lot of players who have had animosity towards their team after arby hearings.

[wibadgers23]

Trade some top prospects for a huge bat like Jose Ramirez and then trade Hader to replenish some of those traded prospects. I could get on board with that strategy. Although if you trade for somebody like Ramirez, then you are really going for it and could obviously use the best reliever in the game.

[Simba2020]

I'm definitely up for trading Hader. I just don't care for a player that knowing the bullpen is depleted, no Suter, no Williams, elimination game, and he still refuses to go more than 1 inning.

 

Seattle loves to deal and doesn't have a regular closer. How about Hader for Ty France? I would prefer to not trade Hader for prospects but for somebody with at least some track record. Teoscar Hernandez would be another guy but I think he has only one year of control remaining.

[wntrtxn21]

I'm definitely up for trading Hader. I just don't care for a player that knowing the bullpen is depleted, no Suter, no Williams, elimination game, and he still refuses to go more than 1 inning.

 

Seattle loves to deal and doesn't have a regular closer. How about Hader for Ty France? I would prefer to not trade Hader for prospects but for somebody with at least some track record. Teoscar Hernandez would be another guy but I think he has only one year of control remaining.

 

I don't believe the Mariners would trade France for Hader. They traded Nola and Adams to the Padres to get France and Trammell, so I think it would take more than a LRP for them to move France, especially now because Seager is going to be history.

[BrewCrewBlueDevil]

Hader to the Dodgers for Graterol and Lux.