Kendall Graveman to the Astros

[Brewcrewin07]

Jeff Passan

@JeffPassan

·

1m

The Houston Astros have acquired relievers Kendall Graveman and Rafael Montero from the Seattle Mariners for third baseman Abraham Toro and reliever Joe Smith, sources tell ESPN.

 

An intra-division deal that lands Houston one of the best relievers in MLB this year in Graveman.

 

 

Ryan Divish

@RyanDivish

Sources said the news of Graveman being traded to the Astros did not go over well in the Mariners clubhouse.

6:06 PM · Jul 27, 2021·Twitter Web App

[owbc]

-49 run differential blah blah...still disappointing when you're 1 out of the wild card in late July with the longest playoff drought in MLB. And the return for Graveman is disappointing at best. Why????

[SeaBass]

Mariners currently 1 game out of the wild card, not surprising their players aren't happy.

 

As I had been thinking the price on Graveman doesn't seem real steep, not sure what feelings are on Toro as a prospect. Perhaps a missed opportunity but who knows what the Mariners would have asked for from the Brewers.

[KeithStone53151]

I had my eye on graveman as a low key option for the brewers. A bit disappointed we couldn't offer a similar package for him.

[Brewcrewin07]

Ryan Divish

@RyanDivish

Dipoto said the trade doesn’t make sense as a stand alone trade but that it will with the succession of moves they want to make.

6:44 PM · Jul 27, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

[brooks_quichenick]

Toro seems like a really solid get for the M’s. Switch hitting 3B, replacement for Seager eventually

[brewcrewdue80]

I recall somebody or a few here in past chiming to trade for Toro as a 3b option. So there's that. Gotta love selling high on RPs.

 

Maybe Seager will get dealt here and Toro replaces him full time.

Swap Cain's or JBJs contract. But not sure on Seager at 3b this point.

[Eye Black]

Some Mariners players aren’t exactly happy…

 

[Vgmastr]

Ryan Divish

@RyanDivish

Dipoto said the trade doesn’t make sense as a stand alone trade but that it will with the succession of moves they want to make.

6:44 PM · Jul 27, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

 

Sounds like the Dean Taylor school of GMing by talking about looking at all the moves "in totality" after getting totally fleeced in the Burnitz trade.

[owbc]

Dipoto has a trade addiction, he didn’t even remotely consider what the reaction to this move might be. A trade that he didn’t have to make.

[Brewcrewin07]

Jon Heyman

@JonHeyman

·

10m

Mariners players were upset to the point of tears. After their stirring comeback against first place Houston made it 4 straight wins and pushed them into to the race, the front office executed an alltime buzzkill — trading star closer Kendall Graveman, to Houston no less.

Quote Tweet

Ryan Divish

@RyanDivish

· 1h

Updated Mariners trade story with player reaction.

 

“Are you (expletive) kidding me? It never changes. They don’t care about winning. How do you trade him and say you care about winning? And you trade him to Houston? It never changes.”

 

https://seattletimes.com/sports/mariners/mariners-trade-kendall-graveman-rafael-montero-to-astros-for-abraham-toro-joe-smith/

[brewmann04]

Is Dipoto phone still open to see if wants to give anyone else away.

[Eye Black]

Ryan Divish

@RyanDivish

Dipoto said the trade doesn’t make sense as a stand alone trade but that it will with the succession of moves they want to make.

6:44 PM · Jul 27, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

 

Sounds like the Dean Taylor school of GMing by talking about looking at all the moves "in totality" after getting totally fleeced in the Burnitz trade.

Here’s a full quote from Dipoto…

 

“It probably doesn’t as a stand-alone, but it’s part of a context that I believe is going to be an ongoing story over the next couple of days,” he said. “So as we move toward the trade deadline (July 30). We have been pretty open in sharing the idea that we’re trying to both address present and future, and we remain actively engaged in the market and trying to address upgrades now, that will give us a chance to be as competitive as we can over the next 60 games and hopefully into the postseason.”

 

Dipoto admitted that the trade could disrupt the chemistry in the clubhouse and also affect the psyche of the team in the immediate aftermath.

 

“It’s definitely a concern, hopefully the next moves will make a little bit more sense of it for the guys,” he said. “I think they’ll find that we are very committed to adding to the team.”

 

 

Reading that Seattle Times article, the players (including Graveman) really let loose with their thoughts. I feel like there’s a good chance Dipoto is going to go overboard making a win now move to balance things out. It might be a good time for other sellers to get Dipoto on the phone.

[StearnsFTW]

I would love to get Toro for Graveman as a Mariners fan. I totally get why the players wouldn't love it though.

[JosephC]

This doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. Graveman looks like a failed starter who may or may not be a good reliever in the long-term. He has a sparkling 0.82 ERA this season but his FIP is 2.88. He's really been helped by a ridiculously low .176 BABIP against him. Strikeout and walk rates don't appear to be anything special for a reliever in 2021. He's also a free agent after this year so this is a 2 month acquisition.

 

Before 2020, Graveman signed a deal with the Mariners for 1.5 million with a 3.25 million option for 2021. Instead of picking up the option, the Mariners declined the option for 0.5 million and Graveman became a free agent. Graveman ended up going back to the Mariners on a 1 year, 1.25 million dollar deal. That paints a pretty good pitcher of what Graveman's value was just 9 months ago. The Astros will be the 5th different franchise he's been with.

 

Toro hasn't done squat in the majors, but he was an .836 OPS guy in the minors. Sounds like his glove will always be questionable, but it's possible he could hit enough where a team is more than willing to live with the subpar defense. One really can't value 2 months of Graveman as being worth anything more than a role-player prospect, and Toro still carries that value IMO even with the bad start as a major leaguer.

 

When the Mariner's players smashed clubhouse equipment when news of this deal reached them, hopefully they did not smash the $400 toaster that the taxpayers paid for.

[monty57]

I would love to get Toro for Graveman as a Mariners fan. I totally get why the players wouldn't love it though.

 

I agree about Toro. This is a guy who mashed his way through the minors, had brief tastes of MLB pitching in '19 and '20 (less than 200 total PAs) and looks like he's starting to get some traction with a decent performance in 123 PAs so far this season.

 

JosephC makes a good point about Graveman. I'm sure none of the Mariner players threw a big celebration party when Graveman was re-signed to a reduced value deal when there was little market for him prior to the season. They're in a playoff push, so I get why they don't want to appear to be "selling," but you'd think after a lifetime of playing baseball that players would understand when a player is really good versus when a so-so player is on a hot streak.

 

It's possible this move costs them a bit this season, but it's probably just as likely that Graveman reverts to the guy who put up a 5.69 ERA last year and 7.60 ERA in 2018 and gets shelled the rest of the year, in which case the Mariners would look like geniuses for selling at the perfect time. While he's been great this year, this is a guy whose best seasons have been league average (ERA- of 99 in 2017 and 100 in 2016). Even if you attribute his poor 2018 and 2020 seasons to arm injuries/Tommy John, he still looks like an average pitcher whose forward-looking ZIPs projections predict his ERA & FIP to be around 5.00 going forward.

[Simba2020]

Does Toro's homer in his first Seattle at bat help ease the pain for the Mariners players? I don't know if Toro will ever amount to much but he's not a bum by any means.

[wntrtxn21]

I would love to get Toro for Graveman as a Mariners fan. I totally get why the players wouldn't love it though.

 

I agree about Toro. This is a guy who mashed his way through the minors, had brief tastes of MLB pitching in '19 and '20 (less than 200 total PAs) and looks like he's starting to get some traction with a decent performance in 123 PAs so far this season.

 

JosephC makes a good point about Graveman. I'm sure none of the Mariner players threw a big celebration party when Graveman was re-signed to a reduced value deal when there was little market for him prior to the season. They're in a playoff push, so I get why they don't want to appear to be "selling," but you'd think after a lifetime of playing baseball that players would understand when a player is really good versus when a so-so player is on a hot streak.

 

It's possible this move costs them a bit this season, but it's probably just as likely that Graveman reverts to the guy who put up a 5.69 ERA last year and 7.60 ERA in 2018 and gets shelled the rest of the year, in which case the Mariners would look like geniuses for selling at the perfect time. While he's been great this year, this is a guy whose best seasons have been league average (ERA- of 99 in 2017 and 100 in 2016). Even if you attribute his poor 2018 and 2020 seasons to arm injuries/Tommy John, he still looks like an average pitcher whose forward-looking ZIPs projections predict his ERA & FIP to be around 5.00 going forward.

 

You can't compare the years where he was a starter to now. This year he is strictly a reliever, usually one inning. Completely different mind set and pitch usage.

[wntrtxn21]

If you look at the numbers for Toro you can understand why Mariner players and fans are irate at the trade. He has potential, but has shown absolutely nothing in his 3 tries at the big league level. This year is no exception (.211/.286/.385) and his glove is well below average. He does not K a lot and his minor lg. play says there is hope, but the players are looking at this year. Their closer for another badly under performing 3B doesn't make a lot of sense right now.

[monty57]

I would love to get Toro for Graveman as a Mariners fan. I totally get why the players wouldn't love it though.

 

I agree about Toro. This is a guy who mashed his way through the minors, had brief tastes of MLB pitching in '19 and '20 (less than 200 total PAs) and looks like he's starting to get some traction with a decent performance in 123 PAs so far this season.

 

JosephC makes a good point about Graveman. I'm sure none of the Mariner players threw a big celebration party when Graveman was re-signed to a reduced value deal when there was little market for him prior to the season. They're in a playoff push, so I get why they don't want to appear to be "selling," but you'd think after a lifetime of playing baseball that players would understand when a player is really good versus when a so-so player is on a hot streak.

 

It's possible this move costs them a bit this season, but it's probably just as likely that Graveman reverts to the guy who put up a 5.69 ERA last year and 7.60 ERA in 2018 and gets shelled the rest of the year, in which case the Mariners would look like geniuses for selling at the perfect time. While he's been great this year, this is a guy whose best seasons have been league average (ERA- of 99 in 2017 and 100 in 2016). Even if you attribute his poor 2018 and 2020 seasons to arm injuries/Tommy John, he still looks like an average pitcher whose forward-looking ZIPs projections predict his ERA & FIP to be around 5.00 going forward.

 

You can't compare the years where he was a starter to now. This year he is strictly a reliever, usually one inning. Completely different mind set and pitch usage.

 

He's the same pitcher. It might not be perfect, but it's better to include the 467.2 MLB innings he's pitched prior to this season, than to base everything off of 33 IP this season.

[owbc]

The context of the 20-year playoff drought and the marketing of the team ("Sea Us Rise") is key here, as well as the comments made by the former president in the offseason. It might be the right move for long-term success, but patience is thin, especially with the longer-tenured clubhouse leaders.

 

Certainly as Brewers fans with a long World Series drought, we know there is a decent chunk of our fanbase that gets irritated with Stearns every July because he tends to make conservative trades at the deadline. Perhaps the Adames trade buys him a little slack this year, but we all know the Brewers aren't going to trade for Scherzer or another one of the flashy rentals.

[reillymcshane]

 

When the Mariner's players smashed clubhouse equipment when news of this deal reached them, hopefully they did not smash the $400 toaster that the taxpayers paid for.

A $400 toaster! Sweet. That must make some awesome crusty bread. I bet bagels as well. And not just two at a time. Like 6 or 8 pieces. And the brown is really even. I hate toasters that have hot spots, so certain parts of the bread are way more toasted than others.

[Eye Black]

The context of the 20-year playoff drought and the marketing of the team ("Sea Us Rise") is key here, as well as the comments made by the former president in the offseason. It might be the right move for long-term success, but patience is thin, especially with the longer-tenured clubhouse leaders.

I think this is what makes it a big deal. The Mariners have the longest playoff drought not just in MLB, but all of professional sports. Granted the team has been insanely lucky (27-8 in one run and extra inning games combined), but they are also legitimately within in striking distance of ending a two decade era in which the franchise experienced continuous losing. While I actually think it was a smart baseball trade for the Mariners, the context with which (and with who) it was made wasn’t ideal.