2021-06-30: Cubs (Arrieta) at Brewers (Ashby) [Brewers win, 15-7 -- Cubs score 7 in 1st inning; Crew responds with 15 unanswered]

[brewers888]

The run differential is going to take a real hit today especially when we start using position players.

[pacopete4]

It’s going to be a huge battle to get to the finish line with this staff. Coming off a short season with young pitchers that don’t have the history of throwing a lot of innings is going to be tough. To be honest, I’m a little shocked more on this board doesn’t get that and see why they’re being so cautious and consistent with how they handle these guys. Kudos to the Brewers for knowing that, having a plan, and sticking to it. The easy thing to do would be to shove out their best as much as they can and if they run out of gas, they’d have a built in excuse.

[roadcrew3]

Ashby gets no blame whatsoever for this debacle. You don't start a guy in his debut in a big game against a rival. Burnes should be starting and we should be sweeping this series.

 

It's the big leagues man. No need to coddle the guy, he had a bad debut and it is what it is. If he is good enough to get big league hitters out it doesn't matter who you are playing.

 

This is really out of touch with what happened. He earned 5 outs and trash defense couldn't convert 3 of them. Most single A teams convert all 5 of those outs routinely.

 

I'm not sure who you are saying is out of touch, but to clarify my position: The organization thinks Ashby is an MLB caliber pitcher. If that is the case, it doesn't matter if you are playing the best team in the league or worst team in the league.

 

I agree with you, he didn't get any help out there. He also didn't pitch well though. It was all around a bad debut. Like I said, it is what it is, I'm in no way saying he is a poor pitcher or that he won't be good for the Brewers. He just had a bad outing and no need to act like he was put in an unfair situation.

[Simba2020]

Whether Burnes could have or should have started almost doesn't matter. Why Ashby is the question. Was it the 21 baserunners allowed in his last 10.1 innings pitched enough to convince you now was the time? Pretty sure that would have told me not yet under any circumstances.

[Roderick]

So how do we get nine innings today without using anyone up? Can we get this, or is that asking too much?

 

Ashby/Sanchez 2

Richards 3

Cousins 2

Strickland 2

 

Suter if the plan falls apart?...

[Eye Black]

Well at least if the Brewers do comeback and somehow win this game it will be absolutely soul crushing for these Cubs fans.

[Jopal78]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

I suspect you will be highly critical next year when the Big Three all have arm injuries because the manager rode them particularly hard in 2021.

[timpep]

 

These are contradictory statements. Yeah, it would have been Burnes on 5 days rest. But if the decision was already made, it was already made. He was never gonna start today.

 

To be fair, it's not exactly unheard of for a guy to get moved up a day.

[KeithStone53151]

It’s going to be a huge battle to get to the finish line with this staff. Coming off a short season with young pitchers that don’t have the history of throwing a lot of innings is going to be tough. To be honest, I’m a little shocked more on this board doesn’t get that and see why they’re being so cautious and consistent with how they handle these guys. Kudos to the Brewers for knowing that, having a plan, and sticking to it. The easy thing to do would be to shove out their best as much as they can and if they run out of gas, they’d have a built in excuse.

 

This is why teams managed by Joe Maddon consistently burn out in July/August(and why i miss him as the Cubs manager), well said.

[brewers888]

It’s going to be a huge battle to get to the finish line with this staff. Coming off a short season with young pitchers that don’t have the history of throwing a lot of innings is going to be tough. To be honest, I’m a little shocked more on this board doesn’t get that and see why they’re being so cautious and consistent with how they handle these guys. Kudos to the Brewers for knowing that, having a plan, and sticking to it. The easy thing to do would be to shove out their best as much as they can and if they run out of gas, they’d have a built in excuse.

 

I'm ok with the plan but you have to treat games agsinst chicago a little different than one against Arizona. These games mean 2 games difference in the standings so going with Burnes was the thing to do. We could have gone back to the 6 man rotation and even used Ashby tomorrow night in a less pressure filled situation.

[Patrick425]

For all the monday morning QB's saying we should have started Burnes, for all we know he's dealing with something minor and the extra day is necessary right now. Stuff like this we should all assume CC has a much better pulse on this thing than we do from our couches...

 

Not a "Monday morning QB"...have been saying this since they announced the decision not to pitch Burns today. Perhaps you are right, anything is possible, but that was not the reason the team game - so no reason to believe that is the case, unless you have some inside information that it is. I highly doubt that it's just not a general 6 man rotation decision if he's good to go tomorrow.

 

Pitch Burns today and then go back to the 6 man rotation. That's all I'm saying. I think the risk-reward of having him go on 4 day rest to pitch in this series is well worth it.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

Does a win against the Cubs in June really mean that much more than one against the Pirates, though? Perhaps to us fans as a rivalry game it does, but in the scheme of the final season standings, I don't know if it is a huge thing.

 

I didn't see the decision to start Ashby today as a give-away to the Cubs. He's a legit MLB-caliber arm. Pretty obvious that he isn't ready yet based on today's results, but it isn't like the Brewers went into the game today with the predetermined decision to hand it to the Cubs. They obviously hoped their top pitching prospect would be good enough to make it through a couple innings. It didn't happen. That's baseball.

[Underachiever]

Ashby gets no blame whatsoever for this debacle. You don't start a guy in his debut in a big game against a rival. Burnes should be starting and we should be sweeping this series.

 

It's the big leagues man. No need to coddle the guy, he had a bad debut and it is what it is. If he is good enough to get big league hitters out it doesn't matter who you are playing.

Right, and today it's a murderer's row that features Marisnick, Sogard, Wisdom (I know, he's been good), Alcantara, and a walk to the pitcher.

 

Plus, this will be one sweet comeback. They are another 10-run eight from sweeping!

[adambr2]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

I suspect you will be highly critical next year when the Big Three all have arm injuries because the manager rode them particularly hard in 2021.

 

Yeah, you're wrong. I've mentioned numerous times the importance of protecting the innings and arms from our staff and even been on record saying Counsell does a good job of that.

 

The long plan wouldn't have been blown up with Burnes on the mound today instead of tomorrow.

[adambr2]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

Does a win against the Cubs in June really mean that much more than one against the Pirates, though? Perhaps to us fans as a rivalry game it does, but in the scheme of the final season standings, I don't know if it is a huge thing.

 

I didn't see the decision to start Ashby today as a give-away to the Cubs. He's a legit MLB-caliber arm. Pretty obvious that he isn't ready yet based on today's results, but it isn't like the Brewers went into the game today with the predetermined decision to hand it to the Cubs. They obviously hoped their top pitching prospect would be good enough to make it through a couple innings. It didn't happen. That's baseball.

 

Yes, it does. The Pirates have no chance of finishing ahead of us in the standings. The Cubs do.

 

A Brewer win is a Brewer win regardless of who its against, but a Cub loss is considerably more valuable to us than a Pirate loss.

[Jopal78]

Corbin Burnes innings pitched by year as a pro:

 

2016 35 innings (plus an additional 102 in college pre-draft)

2017 145 innings

2018 116 innings

2019 71 innings

2020 59 innings

2021 74 innings already.

 

With Burnes never pitching 150 innings in any calendar year to date, people expecting him to go beyond that this year will probably be disappointed.

[brewers888]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

Does a win against the Cubs in June really mean that much more than one against the Pirates, though? Perhaps to us fans as a rivalry game it does, but in the scheme of the final season standings, I don't know if it is a huge thing.

 

I didn't see the decision to start Ashby today as a give-away to the Cubs. He's a legit MLB-caliber arm. Pretty obvious that he isn't ready yet based on today's results, but it isn't like the Brewers went into the game today with the predetermined decision to hand it to the Cubs. They obviously hoped their top pitching prospect would be good enough to make it through a couple innings. It didn't happen. That's baseball.

 

Yes each of these games is twice as important as long as you believe they are our biggest threat in the division. No doubt winning 2 of 3 is great but we had a chance to really demoralize our rival and chose not to give the team the best chance of doing just that.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

These are contradictory statements. Yeah, it would have been Burnes on 5 days rest. But if the decision was already made, it was already made. He was never gonna start today.

 

To be fair, it's not exactly unheard of for a guy to get moved up a day.

 

There are variables, though. For a game in June, coming off a 60-game season, I'm not sure you want to change up the plan.

[KeithStone53151]

I will admit I thought starting Ashby was weird. I thought a better fit woudl have been letting him watch the game settle in a bit and have him 2nd or 3rd out of the pen, preferably against the bottom of their order to help ease his debut. But I'm sure CC/stearns are making the right call if they feel Burnes and the rest of the rotation needed an extra day.

[roadcrew3]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

Does a win against the Cubs in June really mean that much more than one against the Pirates, though? Perhaps to us fans as a rivalry game it does, but in the scheme of the final season standings, I don't know if it is a huge thing.

 

I didn't see the decision to start Ashby today as a give-away to the Cubs. He's a legit MLB-caliber arm. Pretty obvious that he isn't ready yet based on today's results, but it isn't like the Brewers went into the game today with the predetermined decision to hand it to the Cubs. They obviously hoped their top pitching prospect would be good enough to make it through a couple innings. It didn't happen. That's baseball.

 

This is spot on. If they had known starting Ashby would lead to a 7 spot in the first inning, they obviously wouldn't have done it. It happened though and that's baseball. At this point in the season you are just trying to win games regardless of who the opponent is.

 

Does it make any difference if they lose today, but win tomorrow starting Burnes compared to if they started Burnes today and won but went with Ashby tomorrow and lost?

[Simba2020]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

Does a win against the Cubs in June really mean that much more than one against the Pirates, though? Perhaps to us fans as a rivalry game it does, but in the scheme of the final season standings, I don't know if it is a huge thing.

 

I didn't see the decision to start Ashby today as a give-away to the Cubs. He's a legit MLB-caliber arm. Pretty obvious that he isn't ready yet based on today's results, but it isn't like the Brewers went into the game today with the predetermined decision to hand it to the Cubs. They obviously hoped their top pitching prospect would be good enough to make it through a couple innings. It didn't happen. That's baseball.

 

Yes, it does. The Pirates have no chance of finishing ahead of us in the standings. The Cubs do.

 

A Brewer win is a Brewer win regardless of who its against, but a Cub loss is considerably more valuable to us than a Pirate loss.

I also agree that it does as it's not one game it's the equivalent of two games, up 6 versus 4. And I don't care that he has a MLB-caliber arm (I agree) but he was clearly not pitching well in the minors over the past three weeks with a WHIP over 2. There had to be a better option.

[Patrick425]

The easy thing to do would be to shove out their best as much as they can and if they run out of gas, they’d have a built in excuse.

 

Again, for most of us arguing that Burns should have pitched today, this is not what we are saying at all. You can accomplish the same objective and give starters just as much rest by being strategic about when you do it. When did they start the 6 man rotation - wasn't it not until the beginning of June (maybe I'm wrong)? They could have started it earlier - like late mid/late May. Plan the pitching schedule and rest while keeping key series against teams you are battling in mind.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Incredible to just basically give away a game against the team chasing you in the standings.

 

Does a win against the Cubs in June really mean that much more than one against the Pirates, though? Perhaps to us fans as a rivalry game it does, but in the scheme of the final season standings, I don't know if it is a huge thing.

 

I didn't see the decision to start Ashby today as a give-away to the Cubs. He's a legit MLB-caliber arm. Pretty obvious that he isn't ready yet based on today's results, but it isn't like the Brewers went into the game today with the predetermined decision to hand it to the Cubs. They obviously hoped their top pitching prospect would be good enough to make it through a couple innings. It didn't happen. That's baseball.

 

Yes each of these games is twice as important as long as you believe they are our biggest threat in the division. No doubt winning 2 of 3 is great but we had a chance to really demoralize our rival and chose not to give the team the best chance of doing just that.

 

See, you are viewing giving Ashby a start as a predetermined loss. I'm not. Not sure I'm going to be able to understand your viewpoint, and you obviously are ignoring mine. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[adambr2]

Corbin Burnes innings pitched by year as a pro:

 

2016 35 innings (plus an additional 102 in college pre-draft)

2017 145 innings

2018 116 innings

2019 71 innings

2020 59 innings

2021 74 innings already.

 

With Burnes never pitching 150 innings in any calendar year to date, people expecting him to go beyond that this year will probably be disappointed.

 

So yes, I absolutely agree with all of this, and when many people were upset when Burnes got COVID-19 earlier this year I actually shrugged and said they're going to have to manage his workload in various ways this year anyway.

 

Again, he's starting tomorrow. What difference does it make to his long-term workload if he started today against the Cubs or tomorrow against the Pirates?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

It’s going to be a huge battle to get to the finish line with this staff. Coming off a short season with young pitchers that don’t have the history of throwing a lot of innings is going to be tough. To be honest, I’m a little shocked more on this board doesn’t get that and see why they’re being so cautious and consistent with how they handle these guys. Kudos to the Brewers for knowing that, having a plan, and sticking to it. The easy thing to do would be to shove out their best as much as they can and if they run out of gas, they’d have a built in excuse.

 

Completely with you on this. It's a dud. We move on.