Josh Hader appreciation thread

[SomewhereInTime]

I think he's gone

 

[timpep]

I think he's gone

 

 

Someone kept bringing up that Hader was refusing to throw more than one inning and was ripped every time. Looks like they were right.

[jerichoholicninja]

Didn't Josh say exactly that before spring training? I seem to remember him saying something about how he discussed it with his agent and then told the Brewers he "wasn't comfortable" throwing multiple innings. Obviously he didn't want to burn himself quickly out like so many other multi-inning guys have. It's understandable from the player's perspective to try to prolong his career and maximize his earnings but as a fan it's tough to get behind.

[roadcrew3]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

[sveumrules]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

Hader's performance & value were greater throwing 1 IP in a traditional closer's role this year than they were in his 2018-19 multi inning appearance fireman role...

 

2018: 55 G | 81 IP | 60 ERA- | 54 FIP- | 2.6 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +3.30 WPA

2019: 61 G | 75 IP | 59 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 2.8 rWAR | 2.3 fWAR | +3.15 WPA

2021: 60 G | 58 IP | 29 ERA- | 39 FIP- | 3.4 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +4.93 WPA

[Simba2020]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

Hader's performance & value were greater throwing 1 IP in a traditional closer's role this year than they were in his 2018-19 multi inning appearance fireman role...

 

2018: 55 G | 81 IP | 60 ERA- | 54 FIP- | 2.6 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +3.30 WPA

2019: 61 G | 75 IP | 59 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 2.8 rWAR | 2.3 fWAR | +3.15 WPA

2021: 60 G | 58 IP | 29 ERA- | 39 FIP- | 3.4 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +4.93 WPA

I won't argue with his usage during the regular season. But if the guy is unwilling to throw more than one inning in an elimination game with a depleted pen, yeah I have a big problem with that.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I have a bigger problem with the HR he gave up.

[timpep]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

Hader's performance & value were greater throwing 1 IP in a traditional closer's role this year than they were in his 2018-19 multi inning appearance fireman role...

 

2018: 55 G | 81 IP | 60 ERA- | 54 FIP- | 2.6 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +3.30 WPA

2019: 61 G | 75 IP | 59 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 2.8 rWAR | 2.3 fWAR | +3.15 WPA

2021: 60 G | 58 IP | 29 ERA- | 39 FIP- | 3.4 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +4.93 WPA

 

To see if it was a net benefit to the team you'd have to see what the results down the line were for the bottom rung guy who ends up with those extra 20 innings.

 

Edit- this also assumes he entered MLB at his prime and wouldn't be getting better naturally also

Edited October 14, 2021 by timpep

[SomewhereInTime]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

There are a lot of industries in the world where someone is criticized for getting a pay raise and doing less work.

[SomewhereInTime]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

Hader's performance & value were greater throwing 1 IP in a traditional closer's role this year than they were in his 2018-19 multi inning appearance fireman role...

 

2018: 55 G | 81 IP | 60 ERA- | 54 FIP- | 2.6 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +3.30 WPA

2019: 61 G | 75 IP | 59 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 2.8 rWAR | 2.3 fWAR | +3.15 WPA

2021: 60 G | 58 IP | 29 ERA- | 39 FIP- | 3.4 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +4.93 WPA

I won't argue with his usage during the regular season. But if the guy is unwilling to throw more than one inning in an elimination game with a depleted pen, yeah I have a big problem with that.

 

Agreed. For comparison's sake take a look at his 2018 postseason numbers. That is a massive amount of value added given the importance of those games and the fact that he pitched in such a high number of them.

[sveumrules]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

Hader's performance & value were greater throwing 1 IP in a traditional closer's role this year than they were in his 2018-19 multi inning appearance fireman role...

 

2018: 55 G | 81 IP | 60 ERA- | 54 FIP- | 2.6 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +3.30 WPA

2019: 61 G | 75 IP | 59 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 2.8 rWAR | 2.3 fWAR | +3.15 WPA

2021: 60 G | 58 IP | 29 ERA- | 39 FIP- | 3.4 rWAR | 2.6 fWAR | +4.93 WPA

 

To see if it was a net benefit to the team you'd have to see what the results down the line were for the bottom rung guy who ends up with those extra 20 innings.

 

In 2018 Hader threw 14 IP in the 6th, 25 IP each in the 7th/8th and 11 IP in the 9th.

 

In 2019 Hader threw 21 IP in the 8th and 48 IP in the 9th.

 

The overwhelming majority of innings Hader might have covered in the past were instead covered by Williams & Boxberger, who were both pretty much nails for most of the season & finished 2nd (Williams +2.63) and 3rd (Boxberger +1.30) among Brewers relivers in Win Probability Added.

[roadcrew3]

I think the writing was on the wall all season that Hader throwing one inning was per the player and agent requesting that.

 

From a team perspective it sucks considering his value throwing multiple innings, but hard to blame him. The system clearly favors saves. Professional sports is the only industry in the world where employees are criticized for putting individual earnings above team success.

 

There are a lot of industries in the world where someone is criticized for getting a pay raise and doing less work.

 

It's about people positioning themselves in a way to maximize compensation. Also quantity of work doesn't equal value add.

 

Brett Anderson threw 40 more innings than Hader this year - was he more valuable to the team?

[sveumrules]

Agreed. For comparison's sake take a look at his 2018 postseason numbers. That is a massive amount of value added given the importance of those games and the fact that he pitched in such a high number of them.

 

We had four postseason games this year. Hader saved the first one, wouldn't have mattered which inning(s) he pitched in the other two, and gave up go ahead HR in the last game.

 

I don't really see how leveraging him for a multi inning role would have changed the 2021 postseason results at all.

[Simba2020]

Agreed. For comparison's sake take a look at his 2018 postseason numbers. That is a massive amount of value added given the importance of those games and the fact that he pitched in such a high number of them.

 

We had four postseason games this year. Hader saved the first one, wouldn't have mattered which inning(s) he pitched in the other two, and gave up go ahead HR in the last game.

 

I don't really see how leveraging him for a multi inning role would have changed the 2021 postseason results at all.

In the end it might not have mattered. But what if he tosses a scoreless 8th and the game remains tied. Then he isn't around for the 9th. Again, I have a problem with that. I also would have let Woodruff pitch the 8th and have Hader ready to go 2+ innings if need be. However, Hader forced Counsell's hand. I don't want players dictating to the manager how to manage.

[SomewhereInTime]

Agreed. For comparison's sake take a look at his 2018 postseason numbers. That is a massive amount of value added given the importance of those games and the fact that he pitched in such a high number of them.

 

We had four postseason games this year. Hader saved the first one, wouldn't have mattered which inning(s) he pitched in the other two, and gave up go ahead HR in the last game.

 

I don't really see how leveraging him for a multi inning role would have changed the 2021 postseason results at all.

 

I'm not saying that using him differently this year would have changed the results, only that throwing 10 innings over 7 games all scoreless in that 2018 postseason is a massive amount of value to add to that year given the importance of those games and the fact that 10 out of the 90 innings he threw that year is a significant percentage of his work and would certainly improve his season averages and metrics if included.

[MilwaukeeBeers]

Hader has recently always choked when it has mattered the most. If we can get a valuable piece or two he can absolutely hit the road

[owbc]

It's not a good look for either party. As an employer, that's the risk of making a lowball offer. As an employee, there is a risk to prioritizing your needs above your employer's.

 

At the end of the day, MLB's financial system creates these incentives, and when you're a relief pitcher the risk of never getting that big contract is real.

 

Anyway...trade him.

[sveumrules]

Hader has recently always choked when it has mattered the most. If we can get a valuable piece or two he can absolutely hit the road

 

What about in Game 1 of the NLDS when he closed out a one run game to secure the victory?

 

Or the three games in a row he finished up against the Mets to wrap up the division title at home?

 

All four of those game were pretty recent & meaningful.

[Simba2020]

Hader has recently always choked when it has mattered the most. If we can get a valuable piece or two he can absolutely hit the road

 

What about in Game 1 of the NLDS when he closed out a one run game to secure the victory?

 

Or the three games in a row he finished up against the Mets to wrap up the division title at home?

 

All four of those game were pretty recent & meaningful.

He barely saved the first game and shutting down a Mets team that lost 11 of 12 doesn't mean too much to me.

[Simba2020]

Hader has recently always choked when it has mattered the most. If we can get a valuable piece or two he can absolutely hit the road

 

What about in Game 1 of the NLDS when he closed out a one run game to secure the victory?

 

Or the three games in a row he finished up against the Mets to wrap up the division title at home?

 

All four of those game were pretty recent & meaningful.

He barely saved the first game and shutting down a Mets team that lost 11 of 12 doesn't mean too much to me.

[bucks2281]

I find it remarkable that the one-inning limit was so ironclad that he couldn’t even stretch it just a little in an elimination game. Given the Williams absence and putrid offense, if they had found a way to win Tuesday or win the series altogether, I’m inclined to believe that his limitation would have jeopardized the team’s chance to win an important game at some point.

[owbc]

Hader has recently always choked when it has mattered the most. If we can get a valuable piece or two he can absolutely hit the road

 

What about in Game 1 of the NLDS when he closed out a one run game to secure the victory?

 

Or the three games in a row he finished up against the Mets to wrap up the division title at home?

 

All four of those game were pretty recent & meaningful.

He barely saved the first game and shutting down a Mets team that lost 11 of 12 doesn't mean too much to me.

 

Hader's postseason numbers speak for themselves...

 

14.1 IP

4 ER

1.88 ERA

3 BB

23 K

0.84 WHIP

 

Or the most important stage he pitched on, the 2018 NLCS:

7.2 IP, 0 ER, 1 BB, 12 K

 

Yeah, you can knock him for the couple times he gave up key runs, but using those instances to predict future performance would be a fool's errand.

[timpep]

 

Hader's postseason numbers speak for themselves...

 

14.1 IP

4 ER

1.88 ERA

3 BB

23 K

0.84 WHIP

 

Or the most important stage he pitched on, the 2018 NLCS:

7.2 IP, 0 ER, 1 BB, 12 K

 

Yeah, you can knock him for the couple times he gave up key runs, but using those instances to predict future performance would be a fool's errand.

 

He was awesome in 2018 but has a playoff ERA above 6 since then. He definitely choked big in 2019, arguably choked this year as well. That's not to say he will always choke, but recently he has, which is what you were replying to.

 

Using 4 innings to predict future performance isn't much more of a fools errand than using 10 innings from 3 years ago.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

 

Hader's postseason numbers speak for themselves...

 

14.1 IP

4 ER

1.88 ERA

3 BB

23 K

0.84 WHIP

 

Or the most important stage he pitched on, the 2018 NLCS:

7.2 IP, 0 ER, 1 BB, 12 K

 

Yeah, you can knock him for the couple times he gave up key runs, but using those instances to predict future performance would be a fool's errand.

 

He was awesome in 2018 but has a playoff ERA above 6 since then. He definitely choked big in 2019, arguably choked this year as well. That's not to say he will always choke, but recently he has, which is what you were replying to.

 

Using 4 innings to predict future performance isn't much more of a fools errand than using 10 innings from 3 years ago.

 

Yeah, 2019 and this year total about 3 innings. A miniscule sample within a small sample.

 

Pitchers' numbers should look worse in the playoffs. Especially great pitchers. They're asked to do more against better hitters with less rest.

 

It is such a massive leap to argue that Hader "choked." He struggled a bit with control in game 1 after a long layoff and made one bad pitch in an otherwise totally dominant inning in game 4. The guy's a stud. I have never ever felt better with a Brewers closer. And may not again. I hope Josh gets a big raise, and someone else is willing to pay it plus give us bats. Preferably, send him to the AL so I can better appreciate how good he is without him competing against us.

[SomewhereInTime]

 

Hader's postseason numbers speak for themselves...

 

14.1 IP

4 ER

1.88 ERA

3 BB

23 K

0.84 WHIP

 

Or the most important stage he pitched on, the 2018 NLCS:

7.2 IP, 0 ER, 1 BB, 12 K

 

Yeah, you can knock him for the couple times he gave up key runs, but using those instances to predict future performance would be a fool's errand.

 

He was awesome in 2018 but has a playoff ERA above 6 since then. He definitely choked big in 2019, arguably choked this year as well. That's not to say he will always choke, but recently he has, which is what you were replying to.

 

Using 4 innings to predict future performance isn't much more of a fools errand than using 10 innings from 3 years ago.

 

LOL, so you're using his ERA over like 3 innings spread over 3 years. Sometimes guys give up a homerun, baseball is competition between a pitcher and hitter and Freeman is pretty good. I don't think that's a choke job.