Josh Hader appreciation thread

[Simba2020]

Personally, I've lost pretty much all respect for Hader. I understand the talent, but with the season on the line, to be absolutely unwilling, which is quite obviously the case, to go more than one inning is completely unacceptable to me. Woodruff should have pitched the 8th, pinch hit and then Hader the 9th+. Perhaps the outcome wouldn't have changed and Hader would never have pitched but you can't just let him go one inning and then bring in who knows who for the 9th and beyond.

How is that on Hader?

How is that not on Hader? He has obviously told Counsell all year long he won't pitch more than one inning. Period.

[SomewhereInTime]

Personally, I've lost pretty much all respect for Hader. I understand the talent, but with the season on the line, to be absolutely unwilling, which is quite obviously the case, to go more than one inning is completely unacceptable to me. Woodruff should have pitched the 8th, pinch hit and then Hader the 9th+. Perhaps the outcome wouldn't have changed and Hader would never have pitched but you can't just let him go one inning and then bring in who knows who for the 9th and beyond.

How is that on Hader?

How is that not on Hader? He has obviously told Counsell all year long he won't pitch more than one inning. Period.

 

Yup, there's just not much value to one inning relievers who pitch under 60 innings in a season and can't pitch two innings in the postseason when needed. If Brandon Woodruff can figure out how to pitch on two days rest after a 6 inning start, Hader can pitch multiple innings in the postseason. Now would be the time to trade him if reasonable value can be found.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Call it a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Josh Hader wasn't a Brewer in 2022.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Call it a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Josh Hader wasn't a Brewer in 2022.

 

I'm sort of over it. He's been historically good but when your lefty weapon gives up a rocket to a LHB and loses an elimination game for the 2nd time in 3 years...it becomes what you're thinking about when he's in there.

 

I don't know. Obviously would be fine watching him next year, but you sort of know he's gone in FA anyway so maybe there's a point you try to cash out.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Call it a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Josh Hader wasn't a Brewer in 2022.

 

I'm sort of over it. He's been historically good but when your lefty weapon gives up a rocket to a LHB and loses an elimination game for the 2nd time in 3 years...it becomes what you're thinking about when he's in there.

 

I don't know. Obviously would be fine watching him next year, but you sort of know he's gone in FA anyway so maybe there's a point you try to cash out.

 

That's kind of what I'm thinking. I don't think you cash out for pennies on the dollar, but if there is a team out there willing to give up a cornerstone-type bat for Hader, you have to consider it. And for those who don't believe that there are any teams who would do that, the Adames for Feyereisen/Rasmussen trade is Exhibit A. That is the exact type of deal the Brewers should be looking at with Hader this offseason. Hader by himself should have significantly more value than that reliever combo.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I think "once-in-a-generation" is overused, but Hader's there. The combo of his talent, how the Brewers deployed him, and general baseball trends as he was starting his career will make him a pivot point guy in baseball history. New-breed HOF pitcher. We've been lucky to have him.

 

I was wrong about trading Josh last winter. But now I'll double down on it. It's time. We just need the prospect/offensive capital, and he's not as valuable to us as a one-inning guy.

 

The White Sox have to drooling at the prospect of pairing Hader with Hendricks in their bullpen, especially given their pitching woes this season and postseason. Conveniently, they're loaded with offensive talent. It might be a good match.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think "once-in-a-generation" is overused, but Hader's there. The combo of his talent, how the Brewers deployed him, and general baseball trends as he was starting his career will make him a pivot point guy in baseball history. New-breed HOF pitcher. We've been lucky to have him.

 

I was wrong about trading Josh last winter. But now I'll double down on it. It's time. We just need the prospect/offensive capital, and he's not as valuable to us as a one-inning guy.

 

The White Sox have to drooling at the prospect of pairing Hader with Hendricks in their bullpen, especially given their pitching woes this season and postseason. Conveniently, they're loaded with offensive talent. It might be a good match.

 

You aren't kidding! That team is loaded with young corner bats. I imagine names like Andrew Vaughn, Jake Burger and Gavin Sheets would hold massive appeal to the Brewers.

[TURBO]

I agree, it's probably time, but until he is gone, I doubt we will be able to appreciate what he has brought to this team for years now.

 

Lockdown closers aren't as easy to find as some might think.

 

I shudder at the thought of who our new closer would be.

 

Will Williams ever be the guy before the major hand injury? I don't think we can count on him stepping into that role until we know he can throw again.

 

Probably means we'd have to go the FA route to find someone to take the place of Hader. That scares me.

[jonescm128]

I think "once-in-a-generation" is overused, but Hader's there. The combo of his talent, how the Brewers deployed him, and general baseball trends as he was starting his career will make him a pivot point guy in baseball history. New-breed HOF pitcher. We've been lucky to have him.

 

I was wrong about trading Josh last winter. But now I'll double down on it. It's time. We just need the prospect/offensive capital, and he's not as valuable to us as a one-inning guy.

 

The White Sox have to drooling at the prospect of pairing Hader with Hendricks in their bullpen, especially given their pitching woes this season and postseason. Conveniently, they're loaded with offensive talent. It might be a good match.

 

But then you are also getting rid of an integral piece of your pitching staff, arguably the best reliever in the game, while you are in win-now mode.

[TURBO]

I think "once-in-a-generation" is overused, but Hader's there. The combo of his talent, how the Brewers deployed him, and general baseball trends as he was starting his career will make him a pivot point guy in baseball history. New-breed HOF pitcher. We've been lucky to have him.

 

I was wrong about trading Josh last winter. But now I'll double down on it. It's time. We just need the prospect/offensive capital, and he's not as valuable to us as a one-inning guy.

 

The White Sox have to drooling at the prospect of pairing Hader with Hendricks in their bullpen, especially given their pitching woes this season and postseason. Conveniently, they're loaded with offensive talent. It might be a good match.

 

But then you are also getting rid of an integral piece of your pitching staff, arguably the best reliever in the game, while you are in win-now mode.

 

 

Yup, and once you take Hader from our bullpen, any strength it once was is gone.

 

Take Hader out of the bullpen and all we have is a bunch of question marks.

 

It will be an interesting off-season for sure.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Yeah, for sure.

 

There are no easy solutions in a small market. I think this: we build a bullpen where everyone is basically a starter. 9 guys who can get multiple innings. Maybe Williams and two other additional one-inning types. But, otherwise, you go full-on piggyback mode. Let's innovate. Make it fun.

[jerichoholicninja]

Stearns has had a lot more luck in finding bullpen arms than bats. Trade Hader for a hitter(s). The bullpen will be fine. It was only 4 games but not having Williams didn't make a lick of difference in the playoffs because the offense sucked so hard.

[roadcrew3]

Stearns has had a lot more luck in finding bullpen arms than bats. Trade Hader for a hitter(s). The bullpen will be fine. It was only 4 games but not having Williams didn't make a lick of difference in the playoffs because the offense sucked so hard.

 

I think game 4 pen usage would have been different if Williams was available. That was the only game where not having him really hurt and changed the way you could navigate the game. Agreed though, not sure it ultimately would have made a difference given the offense.

 

I am also leaning towards trying to trade Hader for some hitters. It will completely change the dynamic of the bullpen but that's an easier fix, and as you mentioned, Stearns has had a higher success rate there, then bringing in bats.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think "once-in-a-generation" is overused, but Hader's there. The combo of his talent, how the Brewers deployed him, and general baseball trends as he was starting his career will make him a pivot point guy in baseball history. New-breed HOF pitcher. We've been lucky to have him.

 

I was wrong about trading Josh last winter. But now I'll double down on it. It's time. We just need the prospect/offensive capital, and he's not as valuable to us as a one-inning guy.

 

The White Sox have to drooling at the prospect of pairing Hader with Hendricks in their bullpen, especially given their pitching woes this season and postseason. Conveniently, they're loaded with offensive talent. It might be a good match.

 

But then you are also getting rid of an integral piece of your pitching staff, arguably the best reliever in the game, while you are in win-now mode.

 

I don't think we are in win now mode as much as we are continuing to win mode. To do that we have to be able to get something for those close to the end of controllable years before we lose them for nothing.

[rickh150]

Trading Hader now brings even less back, one could reason. He has only two years of control left with hefty arby contracts. The Brewers might be stuck with him in a good way, simply not getting back enough to warrant a trade.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Hader's not getting traded this offseason or next offseason - if Hader gets dealt, it'd be at the trade deadline during his last year of team control, and it would still be for a considerable haul.

 

If Williams didn't currently have steel plates/screws in his surgically repaired pitching hand, maybe it makes sense to deal the best closer in the game knowing you've got a capable replacement to fill that role in-house.

 

If the Brewers are content paying the amount of $ they will likely be doing for their 2022 outfield, it makes zero sense to view Hader as someone they need to trade for offensive upgrades because his pricetag is going to start escalating up to the actual on-field value he provides. Until the Brewers sort out their outfield mess, I'd say they have limited spots in the infield where a substantial upgrade is even warranted - Adames at SS, Tellez + RH platoon mate at 1B, Wong is at 2B, and Urias/platoon mate at 3B is pretty solid and at a reasonable cost.

[TURBO]

if Hader gets dealt, it'd be at the trade deadline during his last year of team control, and it would still be for a considerable haul.

 

 

I understand the thought process here, but if the Brewers are in a playoff chase at the trade deadline and they trade Hader, out stud closer, that will be a shocking development.

 

no way a contending team trades away the best closer in baseball at the deadline if they are still competing for a playoff spot.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Hader threw 59 of the most valuable innings for the Brewers this year. He's got so much value per out because he's always getting the highest leverage outs.

 

That's why I think his value in trade is worth capitalizing on. It's easier to cover 59 innings than the 75-80 he was clocking earlier in his career, with a drop-off, of course, but one less than 1 WAR, and you save up to 7 mil in the process, pending the return.

 

Hader just posted a career best FIP. I have to think teams are going to be willing to pay a lot for a guy who still has two years of control.

[adambr2]

Hader threw 59 of the most valuable innings for the Brewers this year. He's got so much value per out because he's always getting the highest leverage outs.

 

That's why I think his value in trade is worth capitalizing on. It's easier to cover 59 innings than the 75-80 he was clocking earlier in his career, with a drop-off, of course, but one less than 1 WAR, and you save up to 7 mil in the process, pending the return.

 

Hader just posted a career best FIP. I have to think teams are going to be willing to pay a lot for a guy who still has two years of control.

 

Why? He's the exact same player that no one was willing to pay big for last offseason when he had three years of control. Now someone is going to pony up the prospects with one less year of control? What changed?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Hader threw 59 of the most valuable innings for the Brewers this year. He's got so much value per out because he's always getting the highest leverage outs.

 

That's why I think his value in trade is worth capitalizing on. It's easier to cover 59 innings than the 75-80 he was clocking earlier in his career, with a drop-off, of course, but one less than 1 WAR, and you save up to 7 mil in the process, pending the return.

 

Hader just posted a career best FIP. I have to think teams are going to be willing to pay a lot for a guy who still has two years of control.

 

Why? He's the exact same player that no one was willing to pay big for last offseason when he had three years of control. Now someone is going to pony up the prospects with one less year of control? What changed?

 

With one less year of control, quite likely the Brewers' asking price.

[jonescm128]

if Hader gets dealt, it'd be at the trade deadline during his last year of team control, and it would still be for a considerable haul.

 

 

I understand the thought process here, but if the Brewers are in a playoff chase at the trade deadline and they trade Hader, out stud closer, that will be a shocking development.

 

no way a contending team trades away the best closer in baseball at the deadline if they are still competing for a playoff spot.

 

Exactly this. It's either off-season trade or not at all and we get a comp pick...most likely the latter because they should be postseason contenders for the next two years.

[Fear The Chorizo]

if Hader gets dealt, it'd be at the trade deadline during his last year of team control, and it would still be for a considerable haul.

 

 

I understand the thought process here, but if the Brewers are in a playoff chase at the trade deadline and they trade Hader, out stud closer, that will be a shocking development.

 

no way a contending team trades away the best closer in baseball at the deadline if they are still competing for a playoff spot.

 

My thought process is that if the Brewers are in that playoff chase, of course Hader isn't traded. They then wind up having him for his entire pre-free agency career and get the benefit of watching him pitch high leverage innings for 7 full seasons - mostly for a much lower than market rate for a stud reliever.

 

Then you take the comp pick if he leaves via free agency in the offseason - which I would definitely advocate for because the Brewers can't be throwing $20M per season at a closer headed into his 30's.

 

Only way he's traded is if they are out of contention at the deadline during the 2023 season, or enough disaster hits the team in early 2022 that the Brewers opt to burn it all down next season at the deadline like the Cubs did this year (talking starting pitcher arm injuries, Stearns leaving, or just a horrible start) - and every playoff contender would want him in their bullpen. With the pitching staff/roster the Brewers currently have and the division they are in, there's no way either the next two offseasons are viewed as 'rebuild' years - so there's zero chance he's dealt in an offseason trade.

[brewers888]

Hader threw 59 of the most valuable innings for the Brewers this year. He's got so much value per out because he's always getting the highest leverage outs.

 

That's why I think his value in trade is worth capitalizing on. It's easier to cover 59 innings than the 75-80 he was clocking earlier in his career, with a drop-off, of course, but one less than 1 WAR, and you save up to 7 mil in the process, pending the return.

 

Hader just posted a career best FIP. I have to think teams are going to be willing to pay a lot for a guy who still has two years of control.

 

Why? He's the exact same player that no one was willing to pay big for last offseason when he had three years of control. Now someone is going to pony up the prospects with one less year of control? What changed?

 

What may have changed and we have no idea if its true or not is that teams like San Diego and the White Sox may just be desperate enough to give us what we want. Preller in particular has to be feeling the heat after San Diego collapsed as they did.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Hader threw 59 of the most valuable innings for the Brewers this year. He's got so much value per out because he's always getting the highest leverage outs.

 

That's why I think his value in trade is worth capitalizing on. It's easier to cover 59 innings than the 75-80 he was clocking earlier in his career, with a drop-off, of course, but one less than 1 WAR, and you save up to 7 mil in the process, pending the return.

 

Hader just posted a career best FIP. I have to think teams are going to be willing to pay a lot for a guy who still has two years of control.

 

Why? He's the exact same player that no one was willing to pay big for last offseason when he had three years of control. Now someone is going to pony up the prospects with one less year of control? What changed?

 

What may have changed and we have no idea if its true or not is that teams like San Diego and the White Sox may just be desperate enough to give us what we want. Preller in particular has to be feeling the heat after San Diego collapsed as they did.

 

Yup. Josh Hader is a headline, win-now move in every competitive baseball city out there. Also, what's changed is the economic environment. I think every FO in the league will be planning for a "normal" 2022, at least with regard to the pandemic (the CBA is another story potentially). I just think your financial return on Hader is likely to be much higher in a year where you can be more certain of full attendance. The "buzz" of the winter is more monetizable this coming year.

 

What to do with Hader is going to be one of the bigger decisions of Stearns tenure. Right up there with the Yelich trade and subsequent contract. I'm honestly skeptical the Brewers want to move him, but enough has changed (including Hader having a better year than in 2020) that I think they might be able to get something closer to their own valuation of Josh. I also think now's the time, with loads of pitching depth and a whole lot of guys who can either start or fill longer-relief roles.

 

We'll see. I'm not going to be ticked if they don't make a deal, but it seems like the fastest way to upgrade the offense given payroll constraints.

[StearnsFTW]

Stearns has had a lot more luck in finding bullpen arms than bats. Trade Hader for a hitter(s). The bullpen will be fine. It was only 4 games but not having Williams didn't make a lick of difference in the playoffs because the offense sucked so hard.

 

I'd be willing to bet Counsell would strongly disagree with you here. There are trickle-down effects of him not being there.