Josh Hader appreciation thread

[DHonks]

the simple reason divisional games help is that they both count as a win for us and a loss for the rival. In effect, one game produces two desirable outcomes.

 

Now it would be really nice if we can take 3 of 4 from the Reds before the break (leaving us up 8 games). Really crazy to play 7 straight against the Reds. Overall, taking 4-5 of the 7 would be huge.

[adambr2]

A loss for a division opponent only matters if that opponent is any threat to finish ahead of you in the standings.

 

The Reds should not be any such threat.

[PeaveyFury]

Why is there an assumption that Hader would ACTUALLY have pitched last night?

[MrTPlush]

Why is there an assumption that Hader would ACTUALLY have pitched last night?

 

The fact he was warming up in the bullpen, that's probably a good assumption.

[pacopete4]

I mean, we’ve almost entered tinfoil hat territory but that doesn’t surprise me with the man who bumped this thread. Always looking for some sort of drama that just isn’t there. The Brewers have their way of handling pitchers and it seems to be working. They also seem to not panic about divisional foes and just keep their train chugging forward. I guess there has to be something for fans to discuss, but this just doesn’t seem like it.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

2019- Had his contact automatically renewed instead of accepting the author- ticked off

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2019/03/07/brewers-reliever-josh-hader-made-business-decision-contract-renewal/3092858002/

 

2020- Lost his arby case and over two million dollars- ticked off, talking about how arbitration is outdated, not benefitting pitchers like him going multiple innings, and facing the heart of the order. I remember CC doing this often. Hader pitched to the heart or he was brought in to get multiple outs in 7th/8th/9th.

 

https://madison.com/wsj/sports/baseball/professional/brewers-manager-craig-counsell-says-josh-hader-should-have-won-arbitration-case/article_14acfff4-62c8-5e01-a3f8-c6344adbf799.html

 

2021- Avoided arbitration and agreed to a deal….. have to think it’s possible part of the terms was no multiple inning games. In the spin, CC says Hader’s role is largely the same (so still closing games, but no multiple innings…and I mean none?) Hader says “multiple innings is a grind” and “closer role is a good fit because of other guys on the roster” (or between the lines says I’m working more, against the other team’s best, on a really unknown schedule…. Am I going a third of an inning?? 2and a third?, and getting paid much less)

 

https://apnews.com/article/mlb-baseball-craig-counsell-josh-hader-871b393c94cff511b0e9d4ca6066ec5a

 

July 7, 2021…..Extra rest can’t be the major deal now if he is up to throw two games on the same day.

 

Once again, for those REALLY in the back ...

 

HADER IS THE CLOSER

 

It's the job he wants, and he's really good at it. In fact, despite yesterday's result, he's the best one in MLB at it. And yes, that role entails pitching one inning at a time. He's stated, over and over, that it is what he prefers, rather than being deployed for multiple innings and being down for 2-3 days at a time. He's never, ever going to be used the way he was in 2017-18 again.

 

Yes, the Brewers have made decisions in the past that have made him unhappy. Those have been front office decisions, not usage decisions. CC and Hader seemingly have a very good relationship. What are you trying to point out here?

[PeaveyFury]

Why is there an assumption that Hader would ACTUALLY have pitched last night?

 

The fact he was warming up in the bullpen, that's probably a good assumption.

 

Because the Brewers have never used guys as decoys before? I’m pretty sure that the bullpen coach warmed up in the bullpen when Craig was a player on the team….

[MrTPlush]

Why is there an assumption that Hader would ACTUALLY have pitched last night?

 

The fact he was warming up in the bullpen, that's probably a good assumption.

 

Because the Brewers have never used guys as decoys before? I’m pretty sure that the bullpen coach warmed up in the bullpen when Craig was a player on the team….

 

Then it should rather be, "Why is there an assumption Hader WOULD NOT have pitched last night?" I think that theory is the one highly unlikely and a big stretch because that simply never seems to happen. When they showed Hader warming up he was the only guy up and throwing. Not like two guys were up at that point preparing.

 

I am not sure why it really matters though. I don't care if he pitched it or not...nor do I think it means what the poster is trying to infer.

[Outlander]

A guy warming up is a pretty good indication he could be coming in, doubt they would mess around with Hader.

[PeaveyFury]

Then it should rather be, "Why is there an assumption Hader WOULD NOT have pitched last night?"

 

No, I think it's fair to note that he wasn't brought into the game and thus shouldn't be automatically assumed that he would have. How many pitchers in MLB have pitched in both games of a double-header in modern times? I'd bet that's the strong exception to the rule.

 

When you factor in that there's an odd conspiracy theory about Hader that some have tried to foster over the past few weeks, I don't think it's unfair to question whether the assumptions made in the original post were flawed on the whole. But that's just IMO.

[PeaveyFury]

The truly interesting thing is that if they HAD used Hader twice yesterday, wouldn't that be using him 'as a weapon' in the way those that argue about his usage thus far are wishing to see? Yet this is somehow a bad thing?

[rickh150]

The truly interesting thing is that if they HAD used Hader twice yesterday, wouldn't that be using him 'as a weapon' in the way those that argue about his usage thus far are wishing to see? Yet this is somehow a bad thing?

 

It’s all about control and if CC has that control with Hader. Can CC bring him in the 8th of a tied game to face the heart of the order? Can CC choose to not pitch him a tied 9th and bring him on in a tied 10th?

 

Again, The BIG thing is that any manager should have TOTAL CONTROL of his bullpen and it’s usage within reason… meaning starters not pitching three games straight, relievers not pitching several innings for several games straight, etc. So if CC for some reason based on different metrics wants to bring Hader or a Milner in the 7th or 9th, he should have that control. Throw an extra batter in the 8th? Sure.

 

I feel that is, at the very least, in question now more than ever since CC was putting Hader in the 9th of the second game on Wednesday before the Brewers scored add on runs. He blew a save, sat a few hours, and then got up to throw again for another save in Game 2. If Hader is able and willing to do this for his money saves, he should be able and willing to throw an extra out in the 8th too on a normal night. I have a sense this is not the case anymore.

 

We will see.

[adambr2]

The truly interesting thing is that if they HAD used Hader twice yesterday, wouldn't that be using him 'as a weapon' in the way those that argue about his usage thus far are wishing to see? Yet this is somehow a bad thing?

 

It’s all about control and if CC has that control with Hader. Can CC bring him in the 8th of a tied game to face the heart of the order? Can CC choose to not pitch him a tied 9th and bring him on in a tied 10th?

 

Again, The BIG thing is that any manager should have TOTAL CONTROL of his bullpen and it’s usage within reason… meaning starters not pitching three games straight, relievers not pitching several innings for several games straight, etc. So if CC for some reason based on different metrics wants to bring Hader or a Milner in the 7th or 9th, he should have that control. Throw an extra batter in the 8th? Sure.

 

I feel that is, at the very least, in question now more than ever since CC was putting Hader in the 9th of the second game on Wednesday before the Brewers scored add on runs. He blew a save, sat a few hours, and then got up to throw again for another save in Game 2. If Hader is able and willing to do this for his money saves, he should be able and willing to throw an extra out in the 8th too on a normal night. I have a sense this is not the case anymore.

 

We will see.

 

CC has control of the bullpen.

 

You make it sound like if CC asked Hader to get the last out in the 8th inning today, Hader would pitch a fit or his agent would call David Stearns in a fury immediately. I'd bet pretty heavily that that just isn't the case.

 

It's about protecting your best arms to be able to withstand the grind of a long season, and about getting as many outings as you can out of Hader to affect more games.

 

Beyond that, there isn't anything wrong with listening when a player tells you how he feels most comfortably being used. Usually what is best for your star players is also best for your team. It is no different than a star position player mentioning where he feels most comfortable batting in the lineup. It just isn't this huge deal that you're making it out to be.

 

You also seem to be forgetting that when Hader first came into the league, the debate wasn't closer or multi inning reliever, it was starter or reliever.

Wouldn't you think that if this really didn't have anything to do with how Hader was most comfortable, if it were 100% money based, that Hader and his agent would have lobbied strongly to get him out of the pen and into the rotation?

[rickh150]

The truly interesting thing is that if they HAD used Hader twice yesterday, wouldn't that be using him 'as a weapon' in the way those that argue about his usage thus far are wishing to see? Yet this is somehow a bad thing?

 

It’s all about control and if CC has that control with Hader. Can CC bring him in the 8th of a tied game to face the heart of the order? Can CC choose to not pitch him a tied 9th and bring him on in a tied 10th?

 

Again, The BIG thing is that any manager should have TOTAL CONTROL of his bullpen and it’s usage within reason… meaning starters not pitching three games straight, relievers not pitching several innings for several games straight, etc. So if CC for some reason based on different metrics wants to bring Hader or a Milner in the 7th or 9th, he should have that control. Throw an extra batter in the 8th? Sure.

 

I feel that is, at the very least, in question now more than ever since CC was putting Hader in the 9th of the second game on Wednesday before the Brewers scored add on runs. He blew a save, sat a few hours, and then got up to throw again for another save in Game 2. If Hader is able and willing to do this for his money saves, he should be able and willing to throw an extra out in the 8th too on a normal night. I have a sense this is not the case anymore.

 

We will see.

 

CC has control of the bullpen.

 

You make it sound like if CC asked Hader to get the last out in the 8th inning today, Hader would pitch a fit or his agent would call David Stearns in a fury immediately. I'd bet pretty heavily that that just isn't the case.

 

It's about protecting your best arms to be able to withstand the grind of a long season, and about getting as many outings as you can out of Hader to affect more games.

 

Beyond that, there isn't anything wrong with listening when a player tells you how he feels most comfortably being used. Usually what is best for your star players is also best for your team. It is no different than a star position player mentioning where he feels most comfortable batting in the lineup. It just isn't this huge deal that you're making it out to be.

 

You also seem to be forgetting that when Hader first came into the league, the debate wasn't closer or multi inning reliever, it was starter or reliever.

Wouldn't you think that if this really didn't have anything to do with how Hader was most comfortable, if it were 100% money based, that Hader and his agent would have lobbied strongly to get him out of the pen and into the rotation?

 

Let’s get some common ground..,, Agree that CC should listen to Hader and try to make his bullpen anchor feel comfy, confident, and supported. I hope you are willing to admit that IF, IF, IF Hader cannot be brought in games for multi innings or in certain situations that have already been predetermined by team Hader and CC, that might not be a good thing.

[adambr2]

Yes, it would be bad if the manager doesn't have control over bullpen decisions.

 

What are we going on other than pure speculation to suggest that he doesn't?

[rickh150]

So, if Hader chooses not to pitch in 8th or whatever, that would not be ok?

 

It is pure speculation, but it isn’t baseless. I could be wrong, yet no solid evidence suggests that I am.

 

What really causes me to feel something might be off a bit…

Well, several games where he could have gone to Hader in the 8th and 10th.

Willingness to go to Milner (warming up) in 8th instead of Hader on June 3.

Hader’s past attitude with usage and contract…

Having Hader pitch in two games possibly for saves on June 7.

Comments made in articles where Hader knows exactly how he is going to be used…. in a CC bullpen, of all things p.

Excelled going multi innings (2018/2019 NL Reliever of the Year)

 

The season is still middling thru and limiting his usage for the long haul could be the overall strategy. We’ll see how the end of season looks.

 

A straight up question about this to Hader or CC would be great, though.

Edited July 10, 2021 by rickh150

[pacopete4]

Oh look, more unfounded drama you’re trying to stir up based on absolutely nothing but your feelings. Not one shred of any sort of evidence. At this point you should be removed for trolling. It’s that ridiculous.

[rickh150]

Oh look, more unfounded drama you’re trying to stir up based on absolutely nothing but your feelings. Not one shred of any sort of evidence. At this point you should be removed for trolling. It’s that ridiculous.

 

Trolling who? I assume that a Fan forum = Fan’s feelings on several different topics, correct? If something is incorrect or false, let me know… glad to apologize.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Just flat out making stuff up and then repeating it over and over. Kinda sounds like trolling.

[PeaveyFury]

Just flat out making stuff up and then repeating it over and over. Kinda sounds like trolling.

 

I have to agree with this. Rick, you’ve creating a conspiracy out of literally nothing other than your own assumptions.

 

Unless there’s something that actually suggests there’s something to this, I’d suggest moving on at this point.

[rickh150]

Just flat out making stuff up and then repeating it over and over. Kinda sounds like trolling.

 

I have to agree with this. Rick, you’ve creating a conspiracy out of literally nothing other than your own assumptions.

 

Unless there’s something that actually suggests there’s something to this, I’d suggest moving on at this point.

 

Will move on….

[rickh150]

Just flat out making stuff up and then repeating it over and over. Kinda sounds like trolling.

 

I have to agree with this. Rick, you’ve creating a conspiracy out of literally nothing other than your own assumptions.

 

Unless there’s something that actually suggests there’s something to this, I’d suggest moving on at this point.

 

Will move on….

 

Pitching only 8th in close out game. Would have led off 9th, unwilling to double switch for him to go more. Have to believe he is simply unwilling to go more, REGARDLESS the situation.

[Simba2020]

Personally, I've lost pretty much all respect for Hader. I understand the talent, but with the season on the line, to be absolutely unwilling, which is quite obviously the case, to go more than one inning is completely unacceptable to me. Woodruff should have pitched the 8th, pinch hit and then Hader the 9th+. Perhaps the outcome wouldn't have changed and Hader would never have pitched but you can't just let him go one inning and then bring in who knows who for the 9th and beyond.

[LouisEly]

Personally, I've lost pretty much all respect for Hader. I understand the talent, but with the season on the line, to be absolutely unwilling, which is quite obviously the case, to go more than one inning is completely unacceptable to me. Woodruff should have pitched the 8th, pinch hit and then Hader the 9th+. Perhaps the outcome wouldn't have changed and Hader would never have pitched but you can't just let him go one inning and then bring in who knows who for the 9th and beyond.

How is that on Hader?

[jerichoholicninja]

[sarcasm]Trade him to San Diego?[/sarcasm]