Is Hader Limited to Throwing One Inning Per Game This Season?

[rickh150]

I have brought this question up in different game threads this year. After tonight, I think it deserves its own space.

 

We all have watched the games in 2018, 2019, and 2020. Hader pitched more than one inning on several occasions, often coming in to face tough lefties or the middle of the order in the 7th and 8th. He would come in with two outs in the 8th with guys on, finishing out the game, routinely.

 

However, this year, there has been none.... and I mean none of this. It is one inning and done. It is you are pitching the 9th, and I really don’t care where we are in the lineup. Tonight, it was two men on in the 8th with two out, up two, with a 3-2 count, and Hoby Milner was throwing hot in the bullpen to potentially relieve Williams with the bases loaded to face a lefty!

 

Yes, I know the bullpen has less options without Rasmussen and Feyereisen. Yes, it is still early in the season to be pushing key pen players. Yes, I know multiple innings could eliminate Hader for a game or two. Sure. Yet, Hader was still being used for just one inning WITH those guys on the team, it is June now, and an extra batter of work in the 8th is small potatoes considering a potential loss with an unproven on the mound in big crunch time forced to pitch to three batters!

 

The main issue is that Hader is being used drastically different than before. Why? Has his agent been pushing for a more traditional role? Has Hader asked not to be used like he has in the past. Hader was very quiet, unlike in the past, in salary negotiations this season. Are these, dare I say, different working conditions partially why? Has CC been pressed on these by any media member? Maybe I have missed the answers to these questions somewhere and need to be educated. Please do.

 

Bottom line, though... being at the game tonight, several of us were convinced that Hoby Milner was coming into a game on the line in the 8th when for the last three or four years Hader would have been routinely put into that spot. He had two days rest and for surely could have pitched to another hitter. In total, I would say there has been 4 or 5 games like this in 2021, crying out for a Haderade in the 8th.

 

Is the reason very simple and just usage related? Or perhaps is there a deeper reason for CC not using him like we have all been accustomed to from past seasons. Until he is used in the 8th with the game on the line, I have my doubts as to why, oh why, this weapon is not being used to its full potential like before.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Both Hader and CC have talked about this. They're ditching the multiple inning appearances so he can make more appearances overall. And Hader said he prefers it this way. The results speak for themselves.

[sveumrules]

Hader is currently tied for 1st by FIP based WAR, tied for 3rd by runs allowed based WAR & 1st in Win Probability Added.

 

It'd be pretty hard to do much better than that so I think his usage pattern has been fine.

[patrickgpe]

Both Hader and CC have talked about this. They're ditching the multiple inning appearances so he can make more appearances overall. And Hader said he prefers it this way. The results speak for themselves.

I'm sure he does, more appearances + more saves = more $$ in arby.

 

that being said, it seems like he has been much better than last year in a traditional closer role.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't know what the right answer is but better stats doesn't necessarily mean better for the team when it comes to relievers. It seems like there have been some situations where Hader could or should have come in the 8th or 7th but didn't and whoever was in blew the game and Hader never even got to pitch.

[RightFieldCoder]

There were 50 games last year and now there are 162. I'm fine with them waiting until Sept/Oct before they decide to start using him outside the traditional closing role. Especially if that makes the pitcher happy.

[Baldkin]

I don't know what the right answer is but better stats doesn't necessarily mean better for the team when it comes to relievers. It seems like there have been some situations where Hader could or should have come in the 8th or 7th but didn't and whoever was in blew the game and Hader never even got to pitch.

 

My only complaint is that maybe sometimes Hader should pitch the 8th instead of the 9th, but can't blame the guy (or more likely his agent) for raising a stink about that when saves actually effect how much money a guy makes.

 

Hader pitched 5.2% of the Crew's innings in 2019, 5.5% in 2018. He is at 4.6% right now (23/500). A whopping 3 innings off of the same percentage of innings as the last two full seasons.

[owbc]

I just commented on this in the foreign substance thread, but across MLB we're seeing a trend toward single inning relief outings as well as a reduction in back-to-back appearances. The reason for doing this is that pitchers are far more effective when throwing at 100%. Same with the 'third time through the order' numbers with starting pitchers. The analytics say to do it, but it presents an interesting opportunity for rule changes to increase offense by making it more difficult for teams to constantly rotate through fresh arms.

[homer]

Does the three batter rule sort of factor into this?

[rickh150]

Does the three batter rule sort of factor into this?

 

Not sure if it matters when there are men on base with two outs in the 8th...if he blows the lead, he can be pulled.

[areacodes]

I don't know what the right answer is but better stats doesn't necessarily mean better for the team when it comes to relievers. It seems like there have been some situations where Hader could or should have come in the 8th or 7th but didn't and whoever was in blew the game and Hader never even got to pitch.

 

 

Doesn’t appear to have been too many this year. BruisedCrew posted this in yesterday’s IGT:

 

“They have lost 4 when leading after 6, 2 when leading after 7, and none when leading after 8.

 

I don’t know offhand if that is 6 different games or if 1 or 2 of the ones leading after 7 were also ones where they were leading after 6.”

[logan82]

I don't know what the right answer is but better stats doesn't necessarily mean better for the team when it comes to relievers. It seems like there have been some situations where Hader could or should have come in the 8th or 7th but didn't and whoever was in blew the game and Hader never even got to pitch.

 

 

Doesn’t appear to have been too many this year. BruisedCrew posted this in yesterday’s IGT:

 

“They have lost 4 when leading after 6, 2 when leading after 7, and none when leading after 8.

 

I don’t know offhand if that is 6 different games or if 1 or 2 of the ones leading after 7 were also ones where they were leading after 6.”

They are 5 games from having the best record in the NL so winning all those would make a big difference. Of course they may have given some of those other games back so it is hard to say just how much difference it would really amount to.

 

Optimal usage is to have your best reliever come in earlier in the game in higher leverage situations and to be used flexibly. That isn't how they get paid though. Saves and holds are just terrible stats.

[SeaBass]

I don't know what the right answer is but better stats doesn't necessarily mean better for the team when it comes to relievers. It seems like there have been some situations where Hader could or should have come in the 8th or 7th but didn't and whoever was in blew the game and Hader never even got to pitch.

 

 

Doesn’t appear to have been too many this year. BruisedCrew posted this in yesterday’s IGT:

 

“They have lost 4 when leading after 6, 2 when leading after 7, and none when leading after 8.

 

I don’t know offhand if that is 6 different games or if 1 or 2 of the ones leading after 7 were also ones where they were leading after 6.”

They are 5 games from having the best record in the NL so winning all those would make a big difference. Of course they may have given some of those other games back so it is hard to say just how much difference it would really amount to.

 

Optimal usage is to have your best reliever come in earlier in the game in higher leverage situations and to be used flexibly. That isn't how they get paid though. Saves and holds are just terrible stats.

If closing games was easy this thread wouldn't exist. Theories and philosophies can be debated but there's a reason that closers in MLB continue to be widely used the way they are in 2021.

[FVBrewerFan]

This narrative about getting paid for saves is over the top. Yea, it may factor in during his arby years, but not at all for his mega contract he'll get soon. Every GM knows his value, they don't need the save stat to tell them that.

 

There's no reason to use him any differently at this point in the season. It allows him to make more appearances, so I don't see the problem here.

 

If they face that situation in the 8th come playoff time, or need a win late to win the division, they will use him that way I'm sure. Just as they'll let the big 3 pitch deeper into games if they're rolling. It's being smart.

[KeithStone53151]

Hader is currently tied for 1st by FIP based WAR, tied for 3rd by runs allowed based WAR & 1st in Win Probability Added.

 

It'd be pretty hard to do much better than that so I think his usage pattern has been fine.

 

Not to nitpick, but I assume you mean among relievers?

 

I would expect hader to be pushed a little harder starting in August or September, but no reason to burn the guy out in June.

[markedman5]

It all depends on the innings restrictions based on the jump from last season.

 

He only pitched 19 innings all of last season…….can he go right back up to 75 or 80 like he did the 2 years prior?

 

Not sure but fans better prepare themselves for the possibility that the Brewers will be careful with him too.

[adambr2]

I haven't loved seeing Hader transition from a flexible versatile reliever role to a strict closer role but at the end of the day I can't argue with the results and it doesn't seem like not having him available in the old role has cost us games.

 

Kind of drives me nuts seeing the matchups sort of thrown our the door when we might have 3 lefties coming up in the 8th followed by 3 righties in the 9th and we're still not going to go Hader-Devin, but in the end I'm sure they have an understanding of all the data and feel that this works best for them.

 

In past years I think the bullpen was more of a strength and the rotation more of a weakness and so you'd see a lot of short hooks from Counsell. I think he's adapted well and understands that the rotation is his strength now and allowing these guys to work deeper into games than he might have had in the past.

 

I think having the 3 headed rotation monster has really helped us shorten games and minimize the impact of pen depth on our games. All 3 guys are going to give you a lot of 7 inning starts. That was kind of the knock on Peralta but even he has been working much deeper into games lately and has become more efficient.

[sveumrules]

Hader is currently tied for 1st by FIP based WAR, tied for 3rd by runs allowed based WAR & 1st in Win Probability Added.

 

It'd be pretty hard to do much better than that so I think his usage pattern has been fine.

 

Not to nitpick, but I assume you mean among relievers?

 

I would expect hader to be pushed a little harder starting in August or September, but no reason to burn the guy out in June.

 

Yes, ranks are among relievers.

 

Though Hader is currently 2nd among all pitchers, starters or relievers, by Win Probability Added with only Woodruff higher so far.

 

It's not just a small sample, early season fluke either. Only deGrom, Scherzer & Verlander have a higher WPA than Hader since 2017.

[DoubleSwitch]

Some of the responses in this thread are reflective of the worst aspects of sabermetric/silicon valley type thinking. You have one of the most valuable relief assets in the game under contract for years and your response is to try to squeeze 5% more value out of him by completely changing his routine and also costing him 10+ million dollars over the course of multiple trips through arbitration? A player who has already shown himself to be vulnerable to periods of volatility? Having a team full of happy comfortable ballplayers has to matter at least a tiny bit because you win 0 games without them.

[Roderick]

Some of the responses in this thread are reflective of the worst aspects of sabermetric/silicon valley type thinking. You have one of the most valuable relief assets in the game under contract for years and your response is to try to squeeze 5% more value out of him by completely changing his routine and also costing him 10+ million dollars over the course of multiple trips through arbitration? A player who has already shown himself to be vulnerable to periods of volatility? Having a team full of happy comfortable ballplayers has to matter at least a tiny bit because you win 0 games without them.

 

How is it completely changing his routine if he pitches one inning, but it is the 8th inning because that is the opponents meat of the order with two mean lefty sticks due up? He would have plenty of time to warm up, as you would have the Brewers batting in between the inning. And someone else picks up the 9th inning.

[pacopete4]

For a lot of guys it is a mental thing. Hader obviously feels comfortable in the 9th and it is working. There are not a lot of MLB pitchers that do feel comfortable getting the last three outs no matter who the matchups are. We were lucky when we had Jeffress (at his peak) and Knebel to go along with Hader. Those situations just don't happen much.

[rickh150]

I would simply like to know if CC was told not to throw Hader more than one inning? That’s a news story, right? It’s not 12 vs. the Packers, but it is a story. If there is one player that could feel unappreciated by Brewers management, ala Arod, it would be Hader! Year to year contract, underpaid, pitching any where from a third of an inning to three innings....

 

And now, this guy is being used drastically different, and CC is managing the bullpen way different too, for good or bad. Just looking for the question to be asked....

 

Did Josh or his rep. ask to not pitch multiple innings?

[adambr2]

I would simply like to know if CC was told not to throw Hader more than one inning? That’s a news story, right? It’s not 12 vs. the Packers, but it is a story. If there is one player that could feel unappreciated by Brewers management, ala Arod, it would be Hader! Year to year contract, underpaid, pitching any where from a third of an inning to three innings....

 

And now, this guy is being used drastically different, and CC is managing the bullpen way different too, for good or bad. Just looking for the question to be asked....

 

Did Josh or his rep. ask to not pitch multiple innings?

 

Why do we need to know?

 

CC calls the shots for the pitching staff. Yes, its possible that Hader's camp had a discussion with CC and said "Hey, we really feel at our best when used this way," and Counsell had a choice to say "tough", or "yeah, I can understand that you feel that way and I think I can accommodate it." If that happened, he obviously choice the latter and the player is happier for it.

 

Where's the big story? It's obviously been working, right? It's not like he's blown a bunch of saves and we're sitting here pointing the finger at who ruined him.

[rickh150]

I would simply like to know if CC was told not to throw Hader more than one inning? That’s a news story, right? It’s not 12 vs. the Packers, but it is a story. If there is one player that could feel unappreciated by Brewers management, ala Arod, it would be Hader! Year to year contract, underpaid, pitching any where from a third of an inning to three innings....

 

And now, this guy is being used drastically different, and CC is managing the bullpen way different too, for good or bad. Just looking for the question to be asked....

 

Did Josh or his rep. ask to not pitch multiple innings?

 

Why do we need to know?

 

CC calls the shots for the pitching staff. Yes, its possible that Hader's camp had a discussion with CC and said "Hey, we really feel at our best when used this way," and Counsell had a choice to say "tough", or "yeah, I can understand that you feel that way and I think I can accommodate it." If that happened, he obviously choice the latter and the player is happier for it.

 

Where's the big story? It's obviously been working, right? It's not like he's blown a bunch of saves and we're sitting here pointing the finger at who ruined him.

 

Oh, it’s a story.... much like Rodgers unhappiness wasn’t an issue until it was one. If it’s a big swing series against the Cubs or Cardinals, if it’s September, or if it’s the playoffs, and CC is limited in any way to win a game..... oh, that story will play.

[rickh150]

Even if it’s Hader’s camp wants him pitching just one inning..... that’s a story. Of course brewerfan would be all over that.

Looking for the question to be asked..... strictly a 9th inning man now for some reason.