MLB has an issue regarding pitching dominance

[jerichoholicninja]

Pitch clock yes for the love of god. There is no reason pitchers need to take as long as they do between pitches especially with the bases empty. A pitch clock would probably have a slight reduction in shifting as I bet a lot of time between pitches is spent waiting for all the infielders to look at their positioning card and then having the 3B to run halfway across the field to go play short RF and then back.

[nate82]

Pitch clock yes for the love of god. There is no reason pitchers need to take as long as they do between pitches especially with the bases empty. A pitch clock would probably have a slight reduction in shifting as I bet a lot of time between pitches is spent waiting for all the infielders to look at their positioning card and then having the 3B to run halfway across the field to go play short RF and then back.

 

The Athletic has an article up about the experiment of the pitch clock in Low A-west. It decreased the game times by 21 minutes. Also looks like it is the hitters who are going to have to adjust the most well it is a good thing that Braun isn't in the league anymore as he would take like 5-min just to get ready to bat. That will have to be cut down also to see any significant impact.

 

Also the 3 batter minimum is more than likely going to go away as the managers are not happy with it and the desired effect that MLB was looking for is actually doing the opposite. The 3 batter minimum has actually increased the game times and there have been just as many if not more pitching changes late even with this rule change. Also the batters haven't seen much of a difference as LHP still are coming in a majority of the time only facing LHB. I believe the stats haven't changed either on this. So everything that MLB tried to do with the 3 batter minimum has done actually hurt everything they have been trying to fix.

 

 

https://theathletic.com/news/minor-league-pitch-clock-cut-game-times-by-21-minutes-in-2021/P9gjgRqcHZeR

[Fear The Chorizo]

Was watching last night's game and put a bit of my focus on how long it was taking between pitches - particularly as the game moved into the mid-late innings and bullpens got involved....

 

Most relievers were taking well over 20 seconds between pitches when nobody was on base - once guys got on base it was like adding 5-6 more seconds between each pitch. What was the most egregious to me with relievers is how many of them have a pronounced/prolonged process to get themselves from the stretch into getting set before delivering the pitch after getting the sign from the catcher.

 

I don't mind a bunch of tosses over to 1st and some added time to try and hold guys from stealing - that's part of the game. But I really don't want to have to watch a pitcher act like he's got to go through that elaborate of a routine just working out of the stretch. I get that most of that might be part of a pitcher's routine to emphasize something mechanical in the actual delivery of a pitch (i.e., Kenley Jansen's leg rocking multiple times as he slowly comes set is a reminder to keep his front side closed as he releases a pitch)....but it's basically the same time lag as hitters that would parade out of the box and reset their batting gloves between every pitch as part of their routine.

 

I can accept that October baseball might be a bit different in ratcheting up the pressure and allow for those games to extend a bit longer because of it - but to be honest even last night's great game is sort of scarred by the fact it took 4 hours and 15 minutes to go 9 innings despite a total of only 4 runs and 12 hits. During the regular season, these pitching routines - particularly for many relievers - take just as long, and that's gotten to be a bigger problem in terms of extending game length than the number of pitching changes. They all don't have to go full on Raptor and work as fast as Suter, but the game pace gets excruciatingly slow once relievers enter.

[MrTPlush]

I just looked it up and apparently they trimmed 20 seconds of commercial between innings a few years ago. Looks like it's 2:05 for local and 2:25 for national now. Would it be feasible to do another 15-30 seconds? I doubt it but even that still only trims 5-10 mins a game. If its feasible for gameplay you can make up the ad revenue on split screen ads in game.

 

The problem with this is the fact there is no more time to shorten between breaks. It takes time to get off the field, on the field, get catchers gear on, do warm up pitches, and then start playing again. Unlike other sports Baseball doesn't just do commercials randomly during play...it is in whatever breaks the game has and they last as long as those breaks truly take. I mean I guess you could tell everyone to go faster and give them 15 seconds less...but at some point shaving 5 minutes off a game is doing nothing. Not to mention people do not like split screen ads when the game is literally going on. People cry over a split screen interview when the game is going on. I don't think Gruber Law blowing up half the screen is going to go over well. Shaving 15 minutes off a game is doing nothing. Unless we start shaving the average game time to 2:30 or maybe 2:45 I don't think anyone is going to notice. I just don't know if that is really all that possible.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I just looked it up and apparently they trimmed 20 seconds of commercial between innings a few years ago. Looks like it's 2:05 for local and 2:25 for national now. Would it be feasible to do another 15-30 seconds? I doubt it but even that still only trims 5-10 mins a game. If its feasible for gameplay you can make up the ad revenue on split screen ads in game.

 

The problem with this is the fact there is no more time to shorten between breaks. It takes time to get off the field, on the field, get catchers gear on, do warm up pitches, and then start playing again. Unlike other sports Baseball doesn't just do commercials randomly during play...it is in whatever breaks the game has and they last as long as those breaks truly take. I mean I guess you could tell everyone to go faster and give them 15 seconds less...but at some point shaving 5 minutes off a game is doing nothing. Not to mention people do not like split screen ads when the game is literally going on. People cry over a split screen interview when the game is going on. I don't think Gruber Law blowing up half the screen is going to go over well. Shaving 15 minutes off a game is doing nothing. Unless we start shaving the average game time to 2:30 or maybe 2:45 I don't think anyone is going to notice. I just don't know if that is really all that possible.

 

I don't think trying to trim between inning/half inning times is the way to approach this to improve pace of play - watching from home or at the ballpark, those pauses almost feel necessary to run to the fridge/go grab something from the concessions, etc. The problem has become that you can honestly go run to the fridge and make yourself a sandwich between pitches of an at bat during the game.

[JohnBriggs12]

A big problem is the time between innings. I've seen where pitchers who are already in the game sit in the dugout for a couple minutes before they come out to warmup for the next inning. This happens all the time. This is especially true in the NL when umpires give them extra time if they were on base the prior inning. That extra time between innings easily adds a good 20 minutes. The answer might be the split screen where ads continue to run into the next inning for a minute or two while the game is going on.

 

I think they should also ban teams from changing pitchers after the pitcher has warmed up for the inning but has yet to face anyone. Cardinals do this a lot. They wait for the opponent to announce a pinch hitter, then the manager walks out.

[Oxy]

The only problem is that national TV executives are grumpy that the playoffs and WS and Sunday Night Baseball don't get great NATIONAL ratings. Big whoopdy-d00. Baseball is a regional sport...It's probably my favorite sport, but I almost never watch some random national game that doesn't involve the Brewers. Local TV ratings and contracts have never been higher. Attendance may go through some peaks and valleys, but by and large more people are attending games now than ever before.

[DuWayne Steurer]

saying that shortening the length of a game from 3:10 to 2:45 is simplifying the argument.

 

watch an inning that suter pitches. it's paced, easy to follow, etc.

 

watch a guy like greinke pitch. shaking off, doing.....whatever it is he does on the mound. Craig Kimbrel with his hawk stance.

 

theres a lot of gamesmanship and stuff with all that. game within the game, disrupting timing, blah blah blah, but it's boring. ignoring the fact that baseball is boring for all but the most hardcore fans is a dangerous path to walk down. you can speed up the game by simply make the guys play, and not with all these dumb and silly rule changes that have accomplished nothing.

 

watching Ryan Braun step out of the box after watching a ball low and outside, and pick up some dirt, take 3 practice swings, unstrap and strap his gloves, flex. take a deep breath, and adjust his jersey after EVERY. PITCH. was boring. it's not just taking 15 minutes off the game, it's telling the batter to stay in the box, pitchers to pitch and let's play some ball. If the game still takes 2 45, so be it.

[MrTPlush]

A big problem is the time between innings. I've seen where pitchers who are already in the game sit in the dugout for a couple minutes before they come out to warmup for the next inning. This happens all the time. This is especially true in the NL when umpires give them extra time if they were on base the prior inning. That extra time between innings easily adds a good 20 minutes. The answer might be the split screen where ads continue to run into the next inning for a minute or two while the game is going on.

 

I think they should also ban teams from changing pitchers after the pitcher has warmed up for the inning but has yet to face anyone. Cardinals do this a lot. They wait for the opponent to announce a pinch hitter, then the manager walks out.

 

This is not really true at all. For four years now there has been a timer between innings and for pitching changes. It is followed pretty reliably. I am 100% confident no pitcher in the last four years has been sitting in the dugout for minutes after the last inning. You are basically trying to infer a pitcher is sitting in the dugout when the timer hits zero and should be pitching. Let alone taking warm-up pitches.

 

This extra time you are claiming that adds 20 minutes does not exist at all.

[MrTPlush]

saying that shortening the length of a game from 3:10 to 2:45 is simplifying the argument.

 

watch an inning that suter pitches. it's paced, easy to follow, etc.

 

watch a guy like greinke pitch. shaking off, doing.....whatever it is he does on the mound. Craig Kimbrel with his hawk stance.

 

theres a lot of gamesmanship and stuff with all that. game within the game, disrupting timing, blah blah blah, but it's boring. ignoring the fact that baseball is boring for all but the most hardcore fans is a dangerous path to walk down. you can speed up the game by simply make the guys play, and not with all these dumb and silly rule changes that have accomplished nothing.

 

watching Ryan Braun step out of the box after watching a ball low and outside, and pick up some dirt, take 3 practice swings, unstrap and strap his gloves, flex. take a deep breath, and adjust his jersey after EVERY. PITCH. was boring. it's not just taking 15 minutes off the game, it's telling the batter to stay in the box, pitchers to pitch and let's play some ball. If the game still takes 2 45, so be it.

 

Yah...but will they make guys go that fast? I wish they did...but I doubt it will be anything like that.

 

They actually made a rule to ban stupid stuff like Braun did a LONG time ago...had to be pushing 2015. You were supposed to stay in the box unless you fouled it off. No one wanted to enforce it though as it wasn't any in game punishment. It certainly reduced it to some extent, but players still don't follow it very well.

[DuWayne Steurer]

so... enforce it. 10 seconds... call a strike. I bet guys would stay in the box. step out more than 2 x in an ab, call a strike.

[Fear The Chorizo]

saying that shortening the length of a game from 3:10 to 2:45 is simplifying the argument.

 

watch an inning that suter pitches. it's paced, easy to follow, etc.

 

watch a guy like greinke pitch. shaking off, doing.....whatever it is he does on the mound. Craig Kimbrel with his hawk stance.

 

theres a lot of gamesmanship and stuff with all that. game within the game, disrupting timing, blah blah blah, but it's boring. ignoring the fact that baseball is boring for all but the most hardcore fans is a dangerous path to walk down. you can speed up the game by simply make the guys play, and not with all these dumb and silly rule changes that have accomplished nothing.

 

watching Ryan Braun step out of the box after watching a ball low and outside, and pick up some dirt, take 3 practice swings, unstrap and strap his gloves, flex. take a deep breath, and adjust his jersey after EVERY. PITCH. was boring. it's not just taking 15 minutes off the game, it's telling the batter to stay in the box, pitchers to pitch and let's play some ball. If the game still takes 2 45, so be it.

 

Yah...but will they make guys go that fast? I wish they did...but I doubt it will be anything like that.

 

They actually made a rule to ban stupid stuff like Braun did a LONG time ago...had to be pushing 2015. You were supposed to stay in the box unless you fouled it off. No one wanted to enforce it though as it wasn't any in game punishment. It certainly reduced it to some extent, but players still don't follow it very well.

 

I think there's a happy medium between going at Suter's pace and how most relievers/pitchers operate, and that happy medium would greatly improve pace of play. What many pitchers do now from the mound is their equivalent of Braun's (and many other hitters of that era) between pitch routines. I do think hitters have gotten marginally better at not being the reason there's such a delay between pitches - you hardly ever see hitters actually have to request for time anymore when getting themselves back into the box and ready to swing, because it's the pitchers now who are doing all sorts of stuff before even starting their windup or coming set in the stretch to deliver a pitch.

 

At the end of the day for me, it's not about the actual length of time to complete a game if the pace of play isn't noticeably sluggish. A 4-hour ballgame with a bunch of baserunners, pitching changes, and a few lead changes is still very fun to watch - However MLB has far too many ~4-hour ballgames with about 10 total hits, limited baserunners/scoring opportunities, and not nearly enough balls put into play for fans to stay engaged with what's happening on the field.

[tmwiese55]

I just looked it up and apparently they trimmed 20 seconds of commercial between innings a few years ago. Looks like it's 2:05 for local and 2:25 for national now. Would it be feasible to do another 15-30 seconds? I doubt it but even that still only trims 5-10 mins a game. If its feasible for gameplay you can make up the ad revenue on split screen ads in game.

 

The problem with this is the fact there is no more time to shorten between breaks. It takes time to get off the field, on the field, get catchers gear on, do warm up pitches, and then start playing again. Unlike other sports Baseball doesn't just do commercials randomly during play...it is in whatever breaks the game has and they last as long as those breaks truly take. I mean I guess you could tell everyone to go faster and give them 15 seconds less...but at some point shaving 5 minutes off a game is doing nothing. Not to mention people do not like split screen ads when the game is literally going on. People cry over a split screen interview when the game is going on. I don't think Gruber Law blowing up half the screen is going to go over well. Shaving 15 minutes off a game is doing nothing. Unless we start shaving the average game time to 2:30 or maybe 2:45 I don't think anyone is going to notice. I just don't know if that is really all that possible.

 

I don't think trying to trim between inning/half inning times is the way to approach this to improve pace of play - watching from home or at the ballpark, those pauses almost feel necessary to run to the fridge/go grab something from the concessions, etc. The problem has become that you can honestly go run to the fridge and make yourself a sandwich between pitches of an at bat during the game.

 

Yea like I said initially, I was skeptical on the feasibility here and that even if so you're only gaining a few minutes. But, a few minutes helps in general. But big pic, it doesn't change much in regards to the pace of the actual in game and lack of action/balls in play, etc. That said, I'd be shocked that if in say 1940 when these games were like 2 hours if it was taking 2:30 between innings.

 

Side note: I happen to randomly see an avg pitcher per plate appearance stat in the last few days after discussing it on here (funny how that works sometimes) and essentially in the last 30 years it's increased about .5 more pitches per pa. So add that to the main point said above the longer times in between pitches.

[DuWayne Steurer]

https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/sports/average-time-mlb-game-all-time-high

 

"If MLB chooses to use it, it appears the league does have a solution, as implementing a 15-second pitch clock in the low minors helped the Low-A West League cut down average game times by 21 minutes. In addition to cutting down the length of games by reducing the amount of dead time, the introduction of the clock has coincided with more runs being scored and more home runs being hit in addition to a reduction in both walks and strikeouts."

[Zad Fnark]

What's the consequence of missing the pitch clock? Automatic Walk?

[MrTPlush]

That article leaves out the most essential piece of why the pitch clock worked at Low-A. Pretty sure the higher levels have had one for years and it didn’t make anything better…games actually grew even longer. Why? Because the higher levels allowed pitchers to step off and it would get reset. Basically it was 100% pointless.

 

The Low-A pitch clock worked because stepping off counted as a pick-off attempt. Notable because they also had a rule limiting two pick off attempts per AB. A third pick off attempt would incur a balk. So with guys on base the pitchers were following the pitch clock because it was pretty essential for them to do so. Didn’t watch a game, but I am guessing the pitch clock was somewhat worthless with guys not on base because there is no one to pick-off…thus no pick-off attempts.

 

So basically the only way to get the pitch clock to really work is to also put in the pick-off limit rule…something I think would be way less attractive to people around the league.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think limiting pickoff attempts is a bad idea. Limiting the amount of times a pitcher can just step off the mound for no reason would be easy to enforce, and is a very viable way to stick to a 15 or 20 second pitch clock.

 

As for what the consequence is.... I would guess assessing a ball (instead of an automatic walk), but I don't know how they handled it in Low-A ball. Maybe an automatic walk would be more of an incentive to get guys to follow the pitch clock. I think falling behind in the count would be enough, personally. There's enough data to know that hitters fare better when ahead in the count to also know that pitchers wouldn't want to give away any kind of free advantage.

 

I think instead of saying "this won't work/can't work/didn't work in some other league", it would behoove MLB to look at how it DID work in low A, take that data, and see how they can move forward with getting gameplay to be a little tighter with regards to flow of game and pacing. It's not just a minor issue anymore.

[monty57]

That article leaves out the most essential piece of why the pitch clock worked at Low-A. Pretty sure the higher levels have had one for years and it didn’t make anything better…games actually grew even longer. Why? Because the higher levels allowed pitchers to step off and it would get reset. Basically it was 100% pointless.

 

The Low-A pitch clock worked because stepping off counted as a pick-off attempt. Notable because they also had a rule limiting two pick off attempts per AB. A third pick off attempt would incur a balk. So with guys on base the pitchers were following the pitch clock because it was pretty essential for them to do so. Didn’t watch a game, but I am guessing the pitch clock was somewhat worthless with guys not on base because there is no one to pick-off…thus no pick-off attempts.

 

So basically the only way to get the pitch clock to really work is to also put in the pick-off limit rule…something I think would be way less attractive to people around the league.

 

Couldn't they just not reset the clock if the pitcher steps off?

[djoctagone]

mlb has not made any specific rule-change proposals to the players. and don't expect them to do so soon during this lockout.

[djoctagone]