MLB has an issue regarding pitching dominance

[patrickgpe]

I don’t think there is an appropriate open thread so I’ll start one.

 

I think MLB at this point needs to admit that they have an issue. No hitters are no longer special. We have had 6 in just over 6 weeks. I think they have to move the mound back to make some changes to the ball. I know they made changes to the ball, but whatever they did they have to dial it back. I love a well pitched games. Pitching battles are fun to watch, but they should be fun because they are not a daily occurrence.

 

(EDIT: The title has been updated to try and reflect the content of the thread.)

[Eye Black]

I think one of the most remarkable elements of the 6 no hitters so far is that they’ve been against just 3 teams. The Indians, Mariners, and Rangers have each been no hit twice before the end of May.

[yfinn6]

Yeah, I don't know what the solution is but at this point there's such an extreme outlier that it's clear an adjustment needs to be made to the game. I think the offensive struggles/great pitching are due to several combinations of how the game last been played the last few years and this year it's all coming together. 2020 and 2021 are weird years because of COVID so I think there won't be a real answer until after 2022. Just the way I see it but would be pleasantly surprised to hear a concrete conclusion with info/data later this season and thus a change going into 2022.

 

Edit -- I think the most obvious "easy" answer is to eliminate extreme shifts. Players basically have to stay within a certain 'zone' of their natural position, the SS and 2B with the most flexibility.

[tmwiese55]

Yes, I think they have a real problem here. Game already had a slow/boring vibe to so many people and this is making it even worse. Rejuicing the ball doesn't really fix it IMO, sure more HRs but the lack of balls in play problem will still be big. I'm a baseball guy but it's even getting too much for me.

 

I'd agree that shift rules of some kind is the simplest, least intrusive type of change that could be made to help a bit. But in principle I struggle to get behind telling someone how to play D. It would at least help, but in general it doesn't fix the problem of how ridiculous the pitchers have become. Since it's been so long it seems extreme for us to move back or change the mound, but it has happened before so I think they need to at least start studying it. Maybe there's an incremental way that could make sense, say 3 inches a year up to a foot (if after 3 or 6 it's still deemed to be needed)?

[wallus]

1. Lower the mound

2. Pitch clock

3. Get rid of infield and outfield practice throws. Make it 60 seconds until the half inning needs to begin.

 

If all of the above fails, replace baseballs with softballs.

[SomewhereInTime]

I know people bring up how bad offense and hitting is in baseball right now but at 4.36 runs per game across the league, that is higher than every year but one in the '80's and all but two in the '70's. All the great contact hitting and bunting in those eras doesn't equal runs. The goal is to score runs within the rules of the game, not put the ball in play at all costs and sacrifice.

 

This doesn't mean it's all or nothing, I think the best offense will have a mix of power hitters and contact hitters. I think a lot of us just have our judgment clouded in that we watch a bottom 5 offense every night that can't really put the ball in play or hit for power.

[rondoman]

The strikeout rate is the highest it has ever been. Batting average is the lowest it has ever been. In short, baseball has become borderline unwatchable for me.

[Oxy]

I know people bring up how bad offense and hitting is in baseball right now but at 4.36 runs per game across the league, that is higher than every year but one in the '80's and all but two in the '70's. All the great contact hitting and bunting in those eras doesn't equal runs. The goal is to score runs within the rules of the game, not put the ball in play at all costs and sacrifice.

 

This doesn't mean it's all or nothing, I think the best offense will have a mix of power hitters and contact hitters. I think a lot of us just have our judgment clouded in that we watch a bottom 5 offense every night that can't really put the ball in play or hit for power.

 

This isn't talked about enough.

[wntrtxn21]

1. Lower the mound

2. Pitch clock

3. Get rid of infield and outfield practice throws. Make it 60 seconds until the half inning needs to begin.

 

If all of the above fails, replace baseballs with softballs.

 

I don't see the 1/2 innings getting any shorter. Commercial breaks would be cut in half and the revenue from those commercials is what pays the big bucks to MLB teams. IMO the number 1 thing MLB should do is the pitch clock to try to speed up the game and add a little more offense. Along with the pitch clock the batter staying in the box rule should be strictly enforced. Number 2 would be eliminating the shift. Number 3 would be lowering the mound and number 4 would be moving the mound back. If #1 doesn't have the desired effect go to #1 plus #2 etc...

[bork]

I imagine moving or lowering the mound would have a huge pushback from the players union. That could hugely impact pitchers and I imagine could lead to injuries. At the very least, there would be a huge adjustment period, where guys would have to re-learn how to pitch.

 

I think looking at the ball has to be the starting point.

[Hopper]

Why does this fall on pitching?

The pitchers are doing their jobs.

It's the hitting that has become total garbage.

Launch angles are killing the game imo.

Why deaden the ball to begin with.

Doing that was asking for less offense, well, that is what they got.

How's that working for MLB right now?

Go back the way it was a couple of years ago and the problem takes care of itself.

We don't need to move the mound back, unless you want even more injuries.

Imagine the injuries involved with changing the distance of the pitch?

These arms are trained for the distance now, that they have always used.

You want even more injuries, mess with the mound.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1. Lower the mound

2. Pitch clock

3. Get rid of infield and outfield practice throws. Make it 60 seconds until the half inning needs to begin.

 

If all of the above fails, replace baseballs with softballs.

 

1 - why, so there is less downward trajectory on pitches and hitters with uppercut swings have even a smaller amount of time the barrel of their bat and the ball is in the hitting area? Also, lowering the mound more all but eliminates pitchers using their legs at all in their delivery, so unless injuring a bunch of them is viewed as a good way to increase scoring this is a bad option.

 

2 - plausible, although I'm not entirely certain how much time that would save if the current feast/famine approach for pitchers and hitters doesn't stop every at bat. Going for K's from a pitching standpoint and not worrying about K'ing from a hitting standpoint guarantees long at bats no matter what.

 

3. It falls within the normal pace of a game, and MLB will never do away with between inning commercial breaks to pay the bills, so there's no point.

 

getting rid of extreme shifts was also mentioned earlier in the thread...also a solution looking for a problem. What about late game situations when managers sometimes opt to bring an OF in to put an extra guy in the infield to cut off ground balls and make plays at the plate? Would teams be given the option to deploy weird defensive shifting in specific game situations?

Would this be yet another thing that could be challenged? Would this positioning rule be applied when the pitcher starts his windup? If so, what's to stop the pitcher from just taking extra time at the start of it so infielders can go run into a shifted position when there aren't any runners on base. what's even the in-game penalty for not following a rule like this? From what I can largely gather, extreme shifting isn't nearly as prevalent once there are runners on base, so maybe to eliminate shifting hitters should actually find ways to get on base more often?

 

The solution is for hitters to figure out how to adjust, plain and simple. I think reverting back to the what the baseball was a few years ago makes some sense, but I'd almost rather have MLB stick with the ball they have this season to force hitters to adjust - otherwise this will resemble watching fastpitch softball where the best pitchers threaten throwing no-hitters more often than not. There always have been big power bats in baseball that have an all or nothing approach at the plate - IMO what the issue has become is there is an extreme lack of contact hitters currently in the game, and even most contact hitters are oftentimes trying to behave like power hitters....that worked ok with a baseball that was likely a bit juiced and its genesis started when players themselves were juicing - now with steroids not being the frontline issue in the league and a baseball that isn't as jumpy we are back to seeing batted ball results being similar to what they were decades ago....frankly I'm not entirely certain that's a bad thing.

[dlk9s]

The two main things that are causing the hitting issues are 1) all-or-nothing, extreme launch angle, don't care if they strikeout approach, and 2) pitchers' non-fastball pitches.

 

To the second point, we look at how fast fastballs are now and think that's why pitchers are so dominant. It's actually their other pitches. When guys are throwing cutters at 96 MPH, sliders at 95 MPH, and wiffle ball changeups at 91 MPH, hitters have no chance.

[pitchleague]

Why does this fall on pitching?

The pitchers are doing their jobs.

It's the hitting that has become total garbage.

Launch angles are killing the game imo.

Why deaden the ball to begin with.

Doing that was asking for less offense, well, that is what they got.

How's that working for MLB right now?

Go back the way it was a couple of years ago and the problem takes care of itself.

We don't need to move the mound back, unless you want even more injuries.

Imagine the injuries involved with changing the distance of the pitch?

These arms are trained for the distance now, that they have always used.

You want even more injuries, mess with the mound.

 

Piggybacking on this, won’t hitters have a tough time adjusting to the added distance of the mound being moved back? They’ve trained themselves to get their timing down on fastballs, etc. for years. The added distance of pitches will add to the amount of time the ball gets to the plate and, even though we’re talking fractions of seconds, it’ll still throw off hitters a bunch, wouldn’t it?

 

Maybe I’m overthinking this.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Why does this fall on pitching?

The pitchers are doing their jobs.

It's the hitting that has become total garbage.

Launch angles are killing the game imo.

Why deaden the ball to begin with.

Doing that was asking for less offense, well, that is what they got.

How's that working for MLB right now?

Go back the way it was a couple of years ago and the problem takes care of itself.

We don't need to move the mound back, unless you want even more injuries.

Imagine the injuries involved with changing the distance of the pitch?

These arms are trained for the distance now, that they have always used.

You want even more injuries, mess with the mound.

 

Piggybacking on this, won’t hitters have a tough time adjusting to the added distance of the mound being moved back? They’ve trained themselves to get their timing down on fastballs, etc. for years. The added distance of pitches will add to the amount of time the ball gets to the plate and, even though we’re talking fractions of seconds, it’ll still throw off hitters a bunch, wouldn’t it?

 

Maybe I’m overthinking this.

 

Increased distance from home plate gives the hitters more time to see the ball and swing/react to a pitch - the idea being that since average pitch velo is higher than its ever been, an increased distance gives the hitters back those fractions of a second back they've had previously. It would benefit hitters to have more time from the release of a pitch before it hits the catcher's mitt.

[JohnBriggs12]

Why does this fall on pitching?

The pitchers are doing their jobs.

It's the hitting that has become total garbage.

Launch angles are killing the game imo.

Why deaden the ball to begin with.

Doing that was asking for less offense, well, that is what they got.

How's that working for MLB right now?

Go back the way it was a couple of years ago and the problem takes care of itself.

We don't need to move the mound back, unless you want even more injuries.

Imagine the injuries involved with changing the distance of the pitch?

These arms are trained for the distance now, that they have always used.

You want even more injuries, mess with the mound.

 

Piggybacking on this, won’t hitters have a tough time adjusting to the added distance of the mound being moved back? They’ve trained themselves to get their timing down on fastballs, etc. for years. The added distance of pitches will add to the amount of time the ball gets to the plate and, even though we’re talking fractions of seconds, it’ll still throw off hitters a bunch, wouldn’t it?

 

Maybe I’m overthinking this.

 

You're overthinking this. We're talking about a foot. All the training in the world can't help most hitters catch up to 98 mph fastballs up in the zone. Kids are able to adjust when they move up from little league distances and that's a much bigger difference. One of the reasons we don't see teams bunting is it's so difficult to bunt a ball coming that fast. A foot gives a hitter just a tiny fraction of more time for pitch recognition. The idea that pitchers who are much bigger and stronger in general these days can't handle another foot is wrong too. Again, it's just a foot.

[Warning Track Power]

Yes, I think they have a real problem here. Game already had a slow/boring vibe to so many people and this is making it even worse. Rejuicing the ball doesn't really fix it IMO, sure more HRs but the lack of balls in play problem will still be big. I'm a baseball guy but it's even getting too much for me.

This is how I feel. It certainly doesn't help that our favorite team cannot hit, but even watching other teams play has become a bit monotonous for me. I don't need to watch 6-5 games every night to be entertained. A 2-1 or 3-2 game is quite entertaining. Where I think tmwiese nails it is there is a general lack of action in these games as a result of the acceptability of strikeouts now. The games lack action because there are so many strikeouts and lazy fly balls as a result of the launch angle craze.

 

While the Brewers are frustrating me out of my mind with their poor offensive performances, at least they were putting the ball in play last night. More to the point about banning the shift and, I think Travis Shaw would have had 3 hits last night if the shift were banned, as the shift allowed the 2B to be 30 feet into RF. I mean he hit three hard hit balls and was thrown out each time from short RF.

 

When even baseball purists and baseball enthusiasts are getting bored and tired of the game, there certainly is a problem. Banning the shift and mandating two IF on each side of 2B is a start for the creation of more action.

[tmwiese55]

Haven't thought this through much and probably won't be on here the next few days to see responses. But tossing something out as an idea or discussion point. What about moving fences back a noticeable amount, thus creating a bigger OFs and space to cover? This is one of the reasons Coors scores so many runs, to make up for the air the fences are deep creating big OFs to cover. Could incentivize balls in play vs going for HRs, and hopefully more action. But you have the hurdle of casual fans wanting HRs so much. Me, I want action/activity. For example, If I'm flipping around channels and see a baseball game has a guy or two on base, i'll stop and see what happens. Feel like we need more of that. Generally, solo HRs are boring.

[monty57]

The solution is for hitters to figure out how to adjust, plain and simple. I think reverting back to the what the baseball was a few years ago makes some sense, but I'd almost rather have MLB stick with the ball they have this season to force hitters to adjust - otherwise this will resemble watching fastpitch softball where the best pitchers threaten throwing no-hitters more often than not. There always have been big power bats in baseball that have an all or nothing approach at the plate - IMO what the issue has become is there is an extreme lack of contact hitters currently in the game, and even most contact hitters are oftentimes trying to behave like power hitters....that worked ok with a baseball that was likely a bit juiced and its genesis started when players themselves were juicing - now with steroids not being the frontline issue in the league and a baseball that isn't as jumpy we are back to seeing batted ball results being similar to what they were decades ago....frankly I'm not entirely certain that's a bad thing.

 

I'm with you on this. OBP is supposed to have a higher correlation to runs scored than any other stat, and players could have an OBP well over .500 if they simply bunted the ball against the shift. Of course, when they start doing this the shift will quickly go away, allowing for the player to hit against a "standard" defense.

 

But hitters won't bunt because they aren't compensated for that. Owners and GM's aren't giving big contracts to guys who do this, so players aren't going to do it. If GM's start paying players to bunt against the shift, players will start doing it.

 

Additionally, the high fastball works best against uppercut, "launch angle" swings. I'd bet that if you put someone like A-Rod out there today, he'd hit just fine. Players can change their swing back to a more level swing just like they changed it to get more "launch angle." But again, they changed it because that's what GM's were paying them to do. If GM's start signing "line drive hitters" who make better contact, then players will adapt. As long as players get paid more to hit .200 with 30 HR then they do to get on base at a .400 clip, they will continue to work on an uppercut swing and not care about how much they strike out.

 

Baseball is constantly changing. The worst thing that can happen is for the "governing body" to start making rules to try to force the game to go one direction. I think our current commissioner meddles too much already. Let the players continue to adapt. They will, and things will correct themselves naturally.

[patrickgpe]

I think my biggest concern / beef is the strikeout rate. here are the numbers from this season by rate:

 

week ending strikeout %

4-11 24.5

4-18 24.5

4-25 24.6

5-2 23.6

5-9 23.3

5-16 23.4

 

source: https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/yankees-corey-kluber-throws-mlbs-second-no-hitter-inside-24-hours-and-sixth-of-the-2021-season/

 

When i was a kid, a no-hitter watch was something special. you would stay up to see if the guy did it. mlb network would break in. now its more rare than a complete game where a starter gives up a run (there has been only 2 this season).

 

i normally wouldn't care except for the fact that MLB has admitted to altering the ball last offseason, and we are seeing what is happening. i love a good pitching duel, but i love it because it doesn't happen every night.

[RightFieldCoder]

Getting rid of the shift will just mean a longer game. Shaw will get a hit. But since no batter is changing their approach you'll still see the next two guys strike out. The best way to get rid of the shift is to incentivize hitters to hit against it. It's also really hard to hit the ball where it's pitched when the pitcher throws non-fastballs at 90+. It will be a little easier if you move the mound back and give the hitter more time to identify the pitch and go the other way. I'd jump straight to two feet back.

 

A list of some radical ideas I'd rather see tried then outlawing the shift:

2 strikes and you're out. (batters would be incentivized to swing for contact early in the count)

7 balls to get a walk. (a lot harder to walk so guys aren't "looking" for them)

If you get on base via walk you can't lead off. (removes "a walk is as good as a hit")

Foul ball is always a strike and can cause a strikeout (just like a foul bunt).

Bunting a ball foul with two strikes is no longer an out. (less penalty for trying to bunt)

[SomewhereInTime]

"2 strikes and you're out. (batters would be incentivized to swing for contact early in the count)

7 balls to get a walk. (a lot harder to walk so guys aren't "looking" for them)

If you get on base via walk you can't lead off. (removes "a walk is as good as a hit")

Foul ball is always a strike and can cause a strikeout (just like a foul bunt)"

 

That might be the worst set of ideas I have ever seen if we are talking about increasing offense. You would be lucky to see one total run in nine innings of play and teams would average 20+ strikeouts.

[SomewhereInTime]

In fact I think the only optimal way to play in a game like that would be to load up your lineup with only speedsters who can bunt and literally attempt to bunt at all times because there would be absolutely no way you could risk swinging the bat.

[Pugger]

Why does this fall on pitching?

The pitchers are doing their jobs.

It's the hitting that has become total garbage.

Launch angles are killing the game imo.

Why deaden the ball to begin with.

Doing that was asking for less offense, well, that is what they got.

How's that working for MLB right now?

Go back the way it was a couple of years ago and the problem takes care of itself.

We don't need to move the mound back, unless you want even more injuries.

Imagine the injuries involved with changing the distance of the pitch?

These arms are trained for the distance now, that they have always used.

You want even more injuries, mess with the mound.

 

QFT

[dlk9s]

The two main things that are causing the hitting issues are 1) all-or-nothing, extreme launch angle, don't care if they strikeout approach, and 2) pitchers' non-fastball pitches.

 

To the second point, we look at how fast fastballs are now and think that's why pitchers are so dominant. It's actually their other pitches. When guys are throwing cutters at 96 MPH, sliders at 95 MPH, and wiffle ball changeups at 91 MPH, hitters have no chance.

 

I should add 3) more relief pitcher use. More pitchers per game who can just let it fly, batters can't get used to them, etc.