keston hiura optioned

[brewcrewdue80]

He simply was not down long enough.

Simple as that.

Yep just over 20days isn't enough time to overhaul and fix anything especially when he spent what? A week likely at home supporting his mom. Team should start using Narvaez or Pina at first starting the other at catcher vs Lefties. Keep Hiura down for as long as his K-rate is 33% or higher after the 20days needed to not count on service time and longer til it reaches that mark.

[monty57]

He simply was not down long enough.

Simple as that.

 

Agree. Getting hot for a few games in AAA doesn't equate to fixing the problems that got him sent down in the first place. I hope they had some kind of plan as to what they were going to work on when they sent him down. If they're trying to do something fairly major to his mechanics, it will take repetition over a prolonged period before those habits will stick and he won't fall back into his bad habits. At AAA, he can work on that and not worry about the results. At the MLB level, he can't.

 

What's long-term good for Hiura is long-term good for the Brewers. He's not helping the Brewers by being on the MLB team now anyhow, so they might as well stick him in the minors until he's fixed, even if that means he's down there for months.

 

As an added bonus, he can also learn how to play first base in the minors instead of at the MLB level.

[jonescm128]

He simply was not down long enough.

Simple as that.

 

Agree. Getting hot for a few games in AAA doesn't equate to fixing the problems that got him sent down in the first place. I hope they had some kind of plan as to what they were going to work on when they sent him down. If they're trying to do something fairly major to his mechanics, it will take repetition over a prolonged period before those habits will stick and he won't fall back into his bad habits. At AAA, he can work on that and not worry about the results. At the MLB level, he can't.

 

What's long-term good for Hiura is long-term good for the Brewers. He's not helping the Brewers by being on the MLB team now anyhow, so they might as well stick him in the minors until he's fixed, even if that means he's down there for months.

 

As an added bonus, he can also learn how to play first base in the minors instead of at the MLB level.

 

Do we have a hitting lab like the pitching lab Burnes was sent to?

[BuckyBrewer61]

Hiura is nowhere near a major league caliber player.

 

Well I think this is clearly wrong. He's 24 and if you even our small samples in either direction by just looking at his overall career stats, he has 689 PA hitting .250/.327/.472 with a 108 wRC+

 

His approach right now is definitely not cutting it though.

 

 

I should have added a “right now” at the end of that first sentence but with his only average or above tool/s being tied to a bat that can no longer make contact, he’s among the least valuable players.

 

 

Yeah, he has evidence that he can hit in the big leagues, so I am far from giving up on him. Closer than I was 2 months ago sadly...but still far from it

 

But "right now," I am hard pressed to think of a worse two-month stretch - by any everyday major league player, in all phases of the game - than Keston's Hiura's 2021 season to date.

 

Certainly can't think of any Brewers off the top of my head that played both this regularly and this poorly...and that's saying a lot. I know some might point out Counsell's 0-45 or whatever it was, but he didn't play and get 4 ABs everyday. And his defense and baserunning weren't atrocious. The only other name that comes to mind is Chris Davis.

[Boomer5]

He was supposed to be a Molitor comp. The worst thing to happen to him was his 19 HRs as a rookie. They needs to get back to being a line drive hitter, not a 3TO which is now a 1TO player.

[FVBrewerFan]

He simply was not down long enough.

Simple as that.

Yep just over 20days isn't enough time to overhaul and fix anything especially when he spent what? A week likely at home supporting his mom. Team should start using Narvaez or Pina at first starting the other at catcher vs Lefties. Keep Hiura down for as long as his K-rate is 33% or higher after the 20days needed to not count on service time and longer til it reaches that mark.

 

I don't think the goal was to overhaul or fix anything. Just mental re-set. If he continues to struggle this bad for anotyer week or two, then I'm sure plan B goes into effect and they send him down much longer and make major changes.

[Jopal78]

He simply was not down long enough.

Simple as that.

Yep just over 20days isn't enough time to overhaul and fix anything especially when he spent what? A week likely at home supporting his mom. Team should start using Narvaez or Pina at first starting the other at catcher vs Lefties. Keep Hiura down for as long as his K-rate is 33% or higher after the 20days needed to not count on service time and longer til it reaches that mark.

 

I don't think the goal was to overhaul or fix anything. Just mental re-set. If he continues to struggle this bad for anotyer week or two, then I'm sure plan B goes into effect and they send him down much longer and make major changes.

 

 

If he needs an overhaul then he’s a bust of a draft pick because he was drafted as an elite college bat. If he plays his way off the team again, they’re probably looking at a change scenery trade for some other team’s bust of a top prospect

[Simba2020]

I had said my hope was that he would actually struggle in the minors. I truly believe his only real hope of being a useful hitter again in the majors is if he undergoes a massive overhaul. Maybe his approach works in the minors, but once major leaguers figured out his weaknesses, it just doesn't cut in at the big league level. But he has to admit it to himself and take it upon himself to make adjustments. But with his "hitting is the easy part" mentality, he may never do so.

[tmwiese55]

I'm no expert hitting coach, but seems he has kind of backfoot uppercut with an odd high twisting finish to his swing. I don't recall this at all when he came up. HAve to assume they have spent a bunch of time comparing his back then swing to now, but to my untrained eye he seems to have chased the launch angle homers too much and needs to get back to spraying all over the field. Swing seems the same since he's been back up. Looks to me he'll be going back down soon so hopefully they really break things down when he does.

[monty57]

If he needs an overhaul then he’s a bust of a draft pick because he was drafted as an elite college bat. If he plays his way off the team again, they’re probably looking at a change scenery trade for some other team’s bust of a top prospect

 

"Overhaul" is probably too strong a term. He probably changed his swing some in order to hit more HR, and that is causing problems. He just needs to get back to where he was when he was the "elite college bat," and it may be better to make that adjustment in Nashville than in Milwaukee. As I mentioned in an earlier post, making this "re-adjustment" could require repetition over time, which is probably better suited to a lower stress environment like Nashville.

 

Lots of prospects have "Sophomore slumps," so expectations for any young player should be tempered. Hiura never got that. He was immediately cemented into the middle of the order with huge expectations, and his "Sophomore year" was the craziness of 2020 when lots of players were having problems. I think it's easy to forget that he's still early in his career, and as high as everyone's hopes are for him, he's still human.

 

While it's bad for the 2021 Brewers that he's stumbling, getting him fixed will do wonders for the team. Let him spend some time in the minors to figure things out. The Brewers will still be around when he's ready to re-join them, whenever that may be.

[owbc]

He doesn't really have any skills as a baseball player other than his bat speed and his weird timing thing seems to negate that. If we were in last place I would just play him every day and see if he can figure it out. As it is, our offense is so bad that we may as well do that anyway, but he brings so little else to the table that he makes Vogelbach look like Tony Gwynn. When you have no baseball talent other than hitting you need to OPS at .800 or better to be truly valuable. Can he do that???

 

If I were Stearns I'd be calling Miami every day until they trade us Aguilar for Hiura.

[tmwiese55]

No way i'd give up on him like that. We've seen what he can do. My guess is if we sold low on him we'd be kicking ourselves big time once another team cleans things up for him and he starts hitting again, like several other guys in recent years.

[Jopal78]

No way i'd give up on him like that. We've seen what he can do. My guess is if we sold low on him we'd be kicking ourselves big time once another team cleans things up for him and he starts hitting again, like several other guys in recent years.

 

It’s getting close to 2 calendar years since he was good, and they’ve already moved on from the idea of him at 2nd base. Even at his best his bat isn’t exceptional at 1st base. There’s no harm in sending him down again to see if he can figure it out, but I wouldn’t hold the door open for him any longer and make him earn his way on the team

[tmwiese55]

Sure. He's also had the equivalent of what 1 full season of MBL ABs? But it costs them nothing to hold onto him and try to fix him in AAA. I'd rather gamble that we can fix him and turn him back into a player than on what little they get back from him right now. You know it's in there somewhere. But yea, generally agree on his spot isn't just given like it was this year. I'd assume he's back down after these next two lefties (assuming he still looks lost) and hopefully he's down long term until his swing is tweaked.

 

And DH is coming soon.

Edited May 27, 2021 by tmwiese55

[owbc]

The good news is that when Keston does make contact he hits it hard. So in theory he should be able to OPS .700 even if he's batting .190. But the reality is that he isn't even close to those thresholds and we're giving away wins while we wait for him to figure it out. So how long until you cut the cord?

 

As for the DH...we have pitchers who could hit better at DH than Keston is right now. That's the reality after 100 PA this year.

[Austin Tatious]

He’s not seeing the ball well at all out of the pitcher’s hand. He might be starting his swing a tick too early but he’s swinging at complete nonsense and the pitchers can throw it way off the plate since he will invariably chase it in a panicked way.

 

Haines is a failure in an extremely straightforward way. Nothing proves it more than the number of hitters we have that simply have no idea how pitchers are working them. One thing is poor mechanics but there’s simply no excuse to allow your hitters to show no progress in learning how you’re being pitched to. It’s laughable to even defend Haines but anyone who does is surely not watching the games. He’s in over his head. And not a little. Way over his head.

[monty57]

He’s not seeing the ball well at all out of the pitcher’s hand. He might be starting his swing a tick too early but he’s swinging at complete nonsense and the pitchers can throw it way off the plate since he will invariably chase it in a panicked way.

 

Haines is a failure in an extremely straightforward way. Nothing proves it more than the number of hitters we have that simply have no idea how pitchers are working them. One thing is poor mechanics but there’s simply no excuse to allow your hitters to show no progress in learning how you’re being pitched to. It’s laughable to even defend Haines but anyone who does is surely not watching the games. He’s in over his head. And not a little. Way over his head.

 

Hiura is lost, no doubt about it. Send him down and try to figure things out.

 

The only thing I've directly read from players regarding Haines was an article where Garcia and Narvaez said he came to their houses and worked with them this summer. They listened to what he said, and both are having great years after they admittedly were swinging for the fences last year... not because Haines or the Brewers told them to do it, they did that on their own.

 

A coach can only do so much. We're in a period where a lot of players want to change their swings to get better "launch angle" and hit more home runs. This has helped some players and hurt others. Narvaez and Garcia pretty much admitted it hurt them, and Haines helped them get back on track. Hiura was probably hurt by this as well, and we'll see if he changes things or if he fades off into obscurity.

 

But, you're right, I don't get the games on TV at home, so I listen to the radio broadcast on MLB.tv (I'm in a blackout zone, so I can't watch). I'd guess that no matter what I saw, I wouldn't be privy to the conversations Haines has with the players, nor would I know if they're listening to what he's saying. I'm pretty sure Garcia and Narvaez are listening to him, so we'll see if they continue to have success.

[wntrtxn21]

He’s not seeing the ball well at all out of the pitcher’s hand. He might be starting his swing a tick too early but he’s swinging at complete nonsense and the pitchers can throw it way off the plate since he will invariably chase it in a panicked way.

 

Haines is a failure in an extremely straightforward way. Nothing proves it more than the number of hitters we have that simply have no idea how pitchers are working them. One thing is poor mechanics but there’s simply no excuse to allow your hitters to show no progress in learning how you’re being pitched to. It’s laughable to even defend Haines but anyone who does is surely not watching the games. He’s in over his head. And not a little. Way over his head.

 

Today's lineup might, arguably, be the worst in modern regular season MLB history:

.199-.212-.247-.200-.143-.203-.155-.123-pitcher. It just can't get much worse. I don't know if it's all Haines fault, but he certainly hasn't helped anybody.

[Austin Tatious]

He’s not seeing the ball well at all out of the pitcher’s hand. He might be starting his swing a tick too early but he’s swinging at complete nonsense and the pitchers can throw it way off the plate since he will invariably chase it in a panicked way.

 

Haines is a failure in an extremely straightforward way. Nothing proves it more than the number of hitters we have that simply have no idea how pitchers are working them. One thing is poor mechanics but there’s simply no excuse to allow your hitters to show no progress in learning how you’re being pitched to. It’s laughable to even defend Haines but anyone who does is surely not watching the games. He’s in over his head. And not a little. Way over his head.

 

Hiura is lost, no doubt about it. Send him down and try to figure things out.

 

The only thing I've directly read from players regarding Haines was an article where Garcia and Narvaez said he came to their houses and worked with them this summer. They listened to what he said, and both are having great years after they admittedly were swinging for the fences last year... not because Haines or the Brewers told them to do it, they did that on their own.

 

A coach can only do so much. We're in a period where a lot of players want to change their swings to get better "launch angle" and hit more home runs. This has helped some players and hurt others. Narvaez and Garcia pretty much admitted it hurt them, and Haines helped them get back on track. Hiura was probably hurt by this as well, and we'll see if he changes things or if he fades off into obscurity.

 

But, you're right, I don't get the games on TV at home, so I listen to the radio broadcast on MLB.tv (I'm in a blackout zone, so I can't watch). I'd guess that no matter what I saw, I wouldn't be privy to the conversations Haines has with the players, nor would I know if they're listening to what he's saying. I'm pretty sure Garcia and Narvaez are listening to him, so we'll see if they continue to have success.

 

There’s no question it is more on the batter than the coach. I was more trying to say that the coach is also culpable. It’s a bottom line business they are in. We’ve got guys so confused and twisted up. I think last night Hiura somehow swung at three sliders well off the plate and struck out as if he were one of us up there. Bradley is another one who is a mess in terms of approach.

 

I see that most posters are down on Hiura. And for good reason. I’m

not claiming to be a scout but I still see a guy with vast potential. He has an extremely quick bat and good pop. He’s got a nice, compact swing. If he can get his vision and possibly mechanics figured out, the upside is way too high to give up.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

Do we have a hitting lab like the pitching lab Burnes was sent to?

 

My god, if we DO have one, it's as abandoned as an opera house in The Ozarks.

 

And if our hitters ARE hitting the lab, everyone working there must be let go, and the whole facility must be burned to the ground.

[monty57]

Today's lineup might, arguably, be the worst in modern regular season MLB history:

.199-.212-.247-.200-.143-.203-.155-.123-pitcher. It just can't get much worse. I don't know if it's all Haines fault, but he certainly hasn't helped anybody.

 

That would be

 

1) Cain, who had one good season with the Brewers, but has looked washed up since. I think he's hit the "age cliff," and taking last year off at his age certainly didn't help

2) Adames, who has looked great since coming to Milwaukee

3) Garcia, who's sporting a 107 wRC+, so he's having a pretty good offensive season after working with Haines this offseason.

4) Pina (later replaced by Narvaez) who are both OPSing over .800

5) Hiura - target of this thread, he's lost, send him down

6) Urias - bad average, but getting on base. His 94 wRC+ as a middle infielder is okay, and the best of his MLB career

7) Bradley Jr. - off to a horrific start. Has 3,443 MLB PAs and was signed at end of spring training. If Haines gets blamed for this, he should get credit for Adames' success.

8) Robertson, who has never been good and is having a bad season. Later replaced by Wong, who is the normal starter and is having one of his better offensive seasons.

 

Today's lineup had a few notable guys sitting the bench to start the game in Yelich, Wong, and Narvaez.

 

The Brewer offense has been down this season, and that has been very widely publicized. The theme of this thread (Hiura) bears a lot of that blame. Now that the team is getting healthy, we should be able to score more runs, and we have been. Hiura needs to go back down, and Cain/Bradley should pretty much just platoon at CF with Yelich and Garcia starting every day. We still have some holes, but things are starting to get a little better.

[Austin Tatious]

Hiura just successfully sacrificed and the crowd went nuts. Everyone is spring loaded in anticipation on Hiura.

[monty57]

There’s no question it is more on the batter than the coach. I was more trying to say that the coach is also culpable. It’s a bottom line business they are in. We’ve got guys so confused and twisted up. I think last night Hiura somehow swung at three sliders well off the plate and struck out as if he were one of us up there. Bradley is another one who is a mess in terms of approach.

 

I see that most posters are down on Hiura. And for good reason. I’m

not claiming to be a scout but I still see a guy with vast potential. He has an extremely quick bat and good pop. He’s got a nice, compact swing. If he can get his vision and possibly mechanics figured out, the upside is way too high to give up.

 

The coach absolutely has some responsibility, and I wouldn't be surprised if Haines' job is in serious jeopardy if for no reason other to "shake things up." But, he's getting blamed for most of the Brewers' woes, and it does seem like he's helping some players. It's possible that his coaching style works for some and not others, and it's also possible that some players just aren't listening (he bears some responsibility there too if that's the case).

 

I like that the Brewers seem to be holding people's feet to the fire, and hopefully everyone realizes that no one's job is totally safe. We're getting healthy and scoring more runs lately, and hopefully that's a trend that continues.

[markedman5]

Hiura optioned back,to Nashville

 

[patrickgpe]

good. he had no confidence. I hope we don't see him until roster expansion in September.