No bang for our outfield bucks

[MrTPlush]

I don't get this idea that we shouldn't complain about the offense or lack of it because of the fact that the pitching has carried the team to a solid record so far.

 

Because that's literally how the team was designed to operate this year.

 

The pitching and defense was suppose to carry the team, yes, but I think the plan was to be at least average on offense. I think that is what he is getting at...why can't he complain about the offense that is below expectations.

 

Now they aren't that far off average overall, but it is definitely not doing great.

[patrickgpe]

Garcia hasn't lived up to what I expected when they signed him but he is a FA after this year. Short term deals don't really hurt the brewers. Everyone knew what JBJ was when the signed him and he has been about what was expected. Cain and Yelich have been hurt so one cannot state definitely much right now. Also if McKinney continues to impress, who cares what Garcia is doing because he would be doing that for far less $.

[tmwiese55]

I don't get this idea that we shouldn't complain about the offense or lack of it because of the fact that the pitching has carried the team to a solid record so far.

 

Because that's literally how the team was designed to operate this year.

 

Yes, to a degree. I don't think they built the team expecting guys like JBJ, Garcia, Cain, Urias to mash so you're correct there and in general that they knew they'd play a ton of low scoring games.

 

However, they did plan it around Yeli being at close to what he was and for Keston to hit. Those are really the main issues. If those two were in the ballpark of what they should be the other guys, who were never supposed to be more than mediocre, fulfilling themselves as mediocre or slightly less wouldn't be so glaring of a problem.

 

Basically, imo, they planned on those two making up for or covering for a lot of the other guys on O so they were ok with focusing on D with moves like Wong/Bradley. And even with that happening they knew they'd be a low scoring good pitching team. But in general yea the current method isn't sustainable, someone else like Yeli/Cain/Huira is going to have to come in to make up for upcoming regression from guys like Mckinney, Shaw, Narv, and the pitching in general. I think the P is going to be very good, barring injury, so the team will be good. But to go to the next level and be a real threat to LA something has to improve on O and the two obvious spots are Yeli and Keston

[trwi7]

Everyone knew what JBJ was when the signed him and he has been about what was expected.

 

This...isn't even close to true.

 

Also if McKinney continues to impress, who cares what Garcia is doing because he would be doing that for far less $.

 

McKinney hasn't been impressive though. Like, who's going I'm impressed with our corner outfielder with the .259 OBP?

[PeaveyFury]

I don't get this idea that we shouldn't complain about the offense or lack of it because of the fact that the pitching has carried the team to a solid record so far.

 

Because that's literally how the team was designed to operate this year.

 

The pitching and defense was suppose to carry the team, yes, but I think the plan was to be at least average on offense. I think that is what he is getting at...why can't he complain about the offense that is below expectations.

 

Below expectations but meeting expected results? Small samples are small samples. If they still look like this universally into the summer, there's something to that, I suppose. But even then, what's the team's record at that point?

[owbc]

I'm also in the small sample boat (especially when you factor for injuries), but we're looking at a team that has a reasonable chance at a division win and another NLCS appearance. And this time they might have the starting pitching + bullpen to pull off the NLCS win. So it's fair that we might want to give this topic some scrutiny.

 

We'll be on the hunt for some bats at the deadline if current trends continue. I'm more concerned about the corner infield positions than the corner outfield to be honest.

[Warning Track Power]

I'm also in the small sample boat (especially when you factor for injuries), but we're looking at a team that has a reasonable chance at a division win and another NLCS appearance. And this time they might have the starting pitching + bullpen to pull off the NLCS win. So it's fair that we might want to give this topic some scrutiny.

 

We'll be on the hunt for some bats at the deadline if current trends continue. I'm more concerned about the corner infield positions than the corner outfield to be honest.

A guy I would love to get (and yes he is expensive) would be Nicholas Castellanos. Yes, it would add more OF but I think Garcia is gone after this year and JBJ may be as well if he doesn't opt-in. 29 years old this year, 2 years for $32m after this season (he can opt-out after 2021 as well), and would be what I think we HOPED Avisail would be.

[adambr2]

Everyone knew what JBJ was when the signed him and he has been about what was expected.

 

Also if McKinney continues to impress, who cares what Garcia is doing because he would be doing that for far less $.

 

On JBJ, holy smokes I hope not. That's a lot of money to set ablaze.

 

McKinney has really come back down to earth. He's still overall better than I expected, but definitely drifting back toward a more realistic output.

[patrickgpe]

No I don't expect him to be batting under .200, but I think we all realized he was brought in for his glove. (atleast I did)

[Warning Track Power]

No I don't expect him to be batting under .200, but I think we all realized he was brought in for his glove. (atleast I did)

I expected excellent defense and about a .240/.330 AVG/OBP slash with ~20 HR. At ~14% of the season completed, his offense (.195/.244) has been much lower than I anticipated.

[roadcrew3]

I'm also in the small sample boat (especially when you factor for injuries), but we're looking at a team that has a reasonable chance at a division win and another NLCS appearance. And this time they might have the starting pitching + bullpen to pull off the NLCS win. So it's fair that we might want to give this topic some scrutiny.

 

We'll be on the hunt for some bats at the deadline if current trends continue. I'm more concerned about the corner infield positions than the corner outfield to be honest.

 

I agree that this defense and pitching staff is built to win baseball in October. Not just this year either but the next 2-3 years as well.

 

I wonder when the year they truly go for it is going to be. The offense this year doesn't seem like it is just one bat away so hard to see them going all in. Optimistic that as Garcia, Bradley, and Cain come off the books, they'll be able to better bolster the offense and will have a season or two to really go for it before decisions need to be made on Woodruff and Burnes.

[rickh150]

I don't get this idea that we shouldn't complain about the offense or lack of it because of the fact that the pitching has carried the team to a solid record so far.

 

Because that's literally how the team was designed to operate this year.

 

Big money to Bradley and Wong, along with getting rid of Knebel and Arcia says otherwise....

I think we all can be disappointed with the offense. Our four highest hitting batters, the only ones eligible by plate appearances for the batting avg lead, are hitting around .200. Glad Wong and Narvarez are keeping us afloat.

[rickh150]

Garcia .194

JBJ .195

Hiura .152

Shaw .216

[sveumrules]

I don't get this idea that we shouldn't complain about the offense or lack of it because of the fact that the pitching has carried the team to a solid record so far.

 

Because that's literally how the team was designed to operate this year.

 

Big money to Bradley and Wong, along with getting rid of Knebel and Arcia says otherwise....

 

Bradley (-28 BAT, +15 BSR, +58 FLD) & Wong (-16 BAT, +24 BSR, +51 FLD) have both derived the majority of their value from defense & base running throughout their careers.

 

They weren't signed for their bats.

[wntrtxn21]

HELP! Tonight's 3-9 hitters: .205 - .149 - .216 - .176 - .195 - .000 - Houser .167

Still in 1st place, but they can only do so much with smoke and mirrors.

[owbc]

You don't need much offense to generate WAR from 2B or CF. Wong and JBJ have been around for a while, they are usually worth about 2.0 oWAR per year. Wong is already at 0.6 oWAR (bref) this year. JBJ hasn't done anything but it's not like he's running well in the negative like Hiura is. Hiura is the one who is really killing the offense, since we're worst in the league at the most important offensive position. Shaw, Urias, McKinney, JBJ etc. are all replacement level so far which isn't great but whatever.

[PeaveyFury]

Big money to Bradley and Wong, along with getting rid of Knebel and Arcia says otherwise....

 

Bradley (-28 BAT, +15 BSR, +58 FLD) & Wong (-16 BAT, +24 BSR, +51 FLD) have both derived the majority of their value from defense & base running throughout their careers.

 

They weren't signed for their bats.

 

Exactly.

[rickh150]

Big money to Bradley and Wong, along with getting rid of Knebel and Arcia says otherwise....

 

Bradley (-28 BAT, +15 BSR, +58 FLD) & Wong (-16 BAT, +24 BSR, +51 FLD) have both derived the majority of their value from defense & base running throughout their careers.

 

They weren't signed for their bats.

 

Exactly.

 

Oh, good. Bradley is doing just what they want then. Make a defensive play and get a hit weekly. $14 million price tag for a job well done.

Obviously, each was signed for both offense and defense. If defense was such a HUGE issue, 5’7””Hiura would not be at 1B, where he has cost us a few runs and and arguably a couple of games.

[brewerfan82]

Just because JBJ and Wong were valued more because of their defense doesn't mean every move on the roster needs to be defensively motivated. Value is value. Hiura, if he's hitting the way he can, would be valuable despite his defense. Unfortunately he's not hitting the way he can, so he doesn't have the defense to fall back on.

 

My understanding is that JBJ is a notoriously streaky hitter. In his overall good offensive year last season, he had 88 plate appearances in August where he batted .215/.284/.329/.613 and then went .326/.423/.562/.985 in 128 plate appearances to finish the season. In 2019 he had months where he OPS'd .406 and .622, and then he had months where he OPS'd .992 and .843. In 2018 he had months where he OPS'd .599 and .600, and then months where he OPS'd .826 and .827. So while his current batting line isn't what we expect overall, he's known to go through stretches like this. Fortunately, unlike Hiura, JBJ can still bring value with his defense while he's not hitting as well.

[rickh150]

Just because JBJ and Wong were valued more because of their defense doesn't mean every move on the roster needs to be defensively motivated. Value is value. Hiura, if he's hitting the way he can, would be valuable despite his defense. Unfortunately he's not hitting the way he can, so he doesn't have the defense to fall back on.

 

My understanding is that JBJ is a notoriously streaky hitter. In his overall good offensive year last season, he had 88 plate appearances in August where he batted .215/.284/.329/.613 and then went .326/.423/.562/.985 in 128 plate appearances to finish the season. In 2019 he had months where he OPS'd .406 and .622, and then he had months where he OPS'd .992 and .843. In 2018 he had months where he OPS'd .599 and .600, and then months where he OPS'd .826 and .827. So while his current batting line isn't what we expect overall, he's known to go through stretches like this. Fortunately, unlike Hiura, JBJ can still bring value with his defense while he's not hitting as well.

 

Agree.... value is value. The Brewers found value and got rather good players with lead off hitter Wong and JBJ.

I don’t agree with the idea that the Brewers were all about defense this offseason or the signings of JBJ and Wong were first and foremost about defense. If JBJ continues to do what he is doing with the bat, he simply won’t play until late innings when winning.

[liveforoctober]

Always something to complain about.

 

The Brewers obviously (maybe it isn't obvious) built this team around pitching and defense and are currently on pace (small sample size!) to win just under 100 games. Yet here we are complaining because someone didn't hit something somewhere.

 

I'm assuming the Crew could win the World Series and there would be a small handful of you that immediately would say "well we had better fix our outfield if we have any chance of repeating.."

 

You are all entitled to your opinions though! Go Crew.

[FVBrewerFan]

This team was built around Yelich and Hiura hitting. Put Cain and Wong in front of them and Narvaez behind them and the lineup looks very different. That also means less ABs for Garcia and JBJ of course, and you can manage their production.

 

Oh, and yes it is April. Maybe, just maybe, give it a couple more months before we even begin claiming any of these deals were mistakes.

[PeaveyFury]

I don’t agree with the idea that the Brewers were all about defense this offseason or the signings of JBJ and Wong were first and foremost about defense. .

 

As LFO noted, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But, all evidence points the other way in this case. Would the Brewers prefer to be getting more offensive output from both of them right now? Sure. But they were likely signed with the expectation/hope that they would produce closer to their career norms, which in both of their cases, is mostly average for their positions. Their true value is derived from their excellent defensive prowess, which was almost certainly the key factor in deciding to sign them.

[Hopper]

I don’t agree with the idea that the Brewers were all about defense this offseason or the signings of JBJ and Wong were first and foremost about defense. .

 

As LFO noted, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But, all evidence points the other way in this case. Would the Brewers prefer to be getting more offensive output from both of them right now? Sure. But they were likely signed with the expectation/hope that they would produce closer to their career norms, which in both of their cases, is mostly average for their positions. Their true value is derived from their excellent defensive prowess, which was almost certainly the key factor in deciding to sign them.

 

Pretty tough to get more offensive production from Wong, guy is on fire and far better offensively than advertised.

That will cool off at some point, or will it?

[PeaveyFury]

Pretty tough to get more offensive production from Wong

 

I was referring more to the point that they didn't get much from him thus far due to the IL stint. But to your question, yes, he'll revert to norms in some manner.